low progesterone, and low estrogen

[rtrollinger]

I thought something was wrong when I noticed all these surface veins all over my complete legs. I was at the shower in the gym. This was probably 4-5 months ago. I was working out at a very strenuous level for about an hour each time I was at the gym. About 5-6 days. For about 3 months I had been doing this. I am normally a runner (5-7 mi. about 5-6 days), not used to being at the gym...so I didn't realize how many calories my exercise was burning. Also, I have loose stools, for about 3 weeks. I don't have a scale at home, so I stepped on the scale at the gym, realizing that I was under 100 pounds. Scary. I do get my period like clockwork. I knew that something was really wrong. I stopped doing exercise for about 5 days, and then I eased back into it. Half intensity, and half as long. And I ate probably around 2,500 calories. Increasing my fat. Because I know that their needs to be a subcutaneous fat layer for the veins to not be so apparent. Before the vein issue I was probably eating around 1,500 calories, a very low-fat diet. Now, three months later, I'm around 112, and I've maintained that for about two months. But, it now gets worse. The veins are still there they are really bulging, even though I have increased my fat by probably 40 grams, for the past three months, and I've put on this weight for at least 3 months. They're not going away. They seem to be thriving. Every once in a while they are manageable, but I can’t wear shorts now, because you never when the veins are going to act up/ be inflamed. They now are bulging out of my arms front and back bicep vein and this blue vein that cuts across it near my shoulder. I have tiny veins around my pectorals and recently I've developed a blue vein cutting across my cleavage and also on my groin area. And I noticed this two weeks ago I have blue veins under my eyes, and they're getting worse, I can see where the vein originates now, towards my forehead. About two months ago I went to my primary care and had a complete blood workup. And she said it was fine. I was thinking it might have something to do with hormones (this was 2 months ago, before it got really bad), and I asked to run blood work for that too. She told me it really wasn't necessary but there was a peri-menopause test that she could do. And she told me that I was clear of that. So blood work was fine. Then I went to the vein doctor (this was before things got really bad, before I saw the under eye veins and the chest vein), and she told me nothing was wrong with my veins. Now I have varicose veins all over my left leg. And spider veins are shooting out in both legs. After that, about a month ago I went and was adamant about having some sort of specific work done on my hormones. I asked for a lot, but she gave me estrogen, progesterone, and leptin.(What’s really interesting is she didn't even bother to ask me where I was in my cycle.) I am at <.5 progesterone (I was in my follicular phase.). I don't know how much progesterone I have but it can't be good. Also this was two months after I started eating very well and increased my weight by close to 15 pounds. And my estrogen was low, but it wasn't that low. I've heard that estrogen thrives on fat cells and is created more so because there are more fat cells there. Well, not that many....I've got a leptin level of .8! I need current results of my leptin, and current results of the estrogen and progesterone. I've researched that blood work is nowhere near the accuracy of a saliva test. Now I've started noticing my scalp, hair thinning, etc. I've taken Maca Root to balance out my hormones, and I know about vitamins and supplements. I use vitamin C in powder form, Vitamin E, D, B-6 and B-12 as well as the others, calcium, Omega-3, and a multi. Recently I’ve been taking zinc and magnesium. Now I've found that using turmeric has a lot of benefits that probably I can use. I’ve started using a cream for about a week Life-Flo Progesta-Care For Women, but the dosage I think is very, very mild. I want to increase it but I've heard that 100-200 is a safe and effective dosage. And I don’t want to self-medicate when I really have very little insight, I know the three that I had tested 2 months ago, one was inconclusive and they were blood testing not saliva testing. Hormones don’t exist in a vacuum, and I realize that they interrelate. My legs ache, starting around 4, and they itch. It seems the blood volume is a lot. But I have no idea what is going on with my body. I get night sweats and I get very moody, highs and lows, I sleep on average 7-9 hours, I have sore and enlarged breasts since I noticed the veins. They were sore and enlarged all the time, but now they’ve evened out to being sore “when they’re supposed to be sore”. (Before my period.) My belly has a bit of water weight to it.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

edit: removed

 

[Mittir]

welcome to the forum

Sorry, i did not read the whole post. Just based on the title of post, it reminded
me that low cholesterol can result in low progesterone. Have you measured
your total cholesterol recently? Strach based diet can cause low cholesterol.

 

[Blossom]

I read your whole post and found it very interesting. I'm sorry to hear you've had such a hard time. I know what it's like to be underweight and no one seems to take it seriously. Women's hormones are particularly sensitive to us maintaining a stable and healthy weight which is very individual. It sounds like you have taken action to help the situation. As Mittir's post pointed out cholesterol could be an issue and we need adequate cholesterol to have a healthy hormonal balance. If you haven't read through Peat's articles on his website http://www.raypeat.com I think that's a great place the start! The general dietary guidelines on the forum might also be helpful. Many of us here have found Progest-e for supplementary progesterone helpful. You may have inadvertently overtrained which can be easy to do if one's not taking in enough fuel. Welcome to the forum.

 

[tara]

Hi,
Lots there, but a few quick thoughts, in addition to other's above.
2500 cals is low for someone exercising as much as you were.
I'd ditch the omega 3s, and reduce exercise to once or twice a week at most, and shorten your sessions, at least for now. I think it is unlikely you would benefit from supplementing estrogen, but progesterone could well be helpful, and useful dose varies a lot. Don't let anyone convince your artificial progestins are the same thing (article about progesterone on Peat's site). Estrogen can sit in cells and not show in blood test (there's an article on this on Peat's site).
Avoid polyunsaturated seed and fish oils as much as you can as soon as you can for a start, favour saturated fats, eg coconut oil, butter, then try other diet changes more gradually and see which ones work for you. You don't say what you are eating. Night sweats and moodiness might improve with more frequent meals, more carbs, more protein if you are not getting at least 80-100g, more salt. Snack before bed.
Keep reading and/or listen to Peat's interviews.

 

[juanitacarlos]

Hi rt

My understanding is the blue vein/spider vein is caused by estrogen. Same with the sore/enlarged breasts.

There are a couple of really good threads on taking progesterone you should read through that may help with the estrogen, although nothing is simple. My only advice is if you start using Progest-E, then commit to using it for a while because if you have high estrogen and use Progest-E willy-nilly you may feel worse - probably will feel worse actually. Get educated on it before you decide to go down that path (Progest-E is great though).

And yes, maybe some more info/stats (age, weight, height, history etc) will help with the advice. Maybe also what foods you're eating?

Eating lots of good food also helps. Tara started a great thread that maybe help for you - search for "Recovery from undereating - Youreatopia".

 

[rtrollinger]

I'm so sorry that I didn't know that there were responses to my post. I've been struggling along with my symptoms and I'm completely at a loss. I'm 45 and I probably weigh 113 (that was the doctor's scale about a month ago). I'm 5'4"; I have gained weight since my symptoms started, as well as completely rehabing my diet. I eat fat at every meal. I love coconut oil, I use that most often. But I supplement with avocados, almonds, walnuts and fat Fage yogurt. I do eat often, and I have been eating a couple raw carrots a day. I love garlic, eat that every day. I recently cut out the supplement of fish oil as a commenter on my post suggested. Pretty much the only symptoms I have now are the veins, they are cyclical and when I think I've solved this (they recede during my ovulation), and then they get just as bad after my ovulation. So I do get my hopes up, to be shattered when my period rolls around. So probably they are flaring up about 20+ days every month. So the veins, and a bit of night sweats (3+ days out of 30), and sometimes I get a bit of edema. Otherwise I feel healthy. I'm hoping that my body is regulating itself; I've been so hard on my body (and myself) for such a long time. I am paying attention to my liver, taking silymarin daily. Also I just started taking pregnanolone. Thanks for commenting!

 

[lindsay]

I'm so sorry that I didn't know that there were responses to my post. I've been struggling along with my symptoms and I'm completely at a loss. I'm 45 and I probably weigh 113 (that was the doctor's scale about a month ago). I'm 5'4"; I have gained weight since my symptoms started, as well as completely rehabing my diet. I eat fat at every meal. I love coconut oil, I use that most often. But I supplement with avocados, almonds, walnuts and fat Fage yogurt. I do eat often, and I have been eating a couple raw carrots a day. I love garlic, eat that every day. I recently cut out the supplement of fish oil as a commenter on my post suggested. Pretty much the only symptoms I have now are the veins, they are cyclical and when I think I've solved this (they recede during my ovulation), and then they get just as bad after my ovulation. So I do get my hopes up, to be shattered when my period rolls around. So probably they are flaring up about 20+ days every month. So the veins, and a bit of night sweats (3+ days out of 30), and sometimes I get a bit of edema. Otherwise I feel healthy. I'm hoping that my body is regulating itself; I've been so hard on my body (and myself) for such a long time. I am paying attention to my liver, taking silymarin daily. Also I just started taking pregnanolone. Thanks for commenting!

I had a lot of the same symptoms as you (except for being underweight and the varicose veins) right before I found out I was in early menopause (I'm 32 now, but I was 30 when I found out). Have you had your FSH and LH checked? And you are still menstruating? I didn't know I was in menopause until my blood tests were done, but I had ovarian failure and my progesterone & estrogen were very low. I HAD been underweight for years and that's one of the reasons I think I had hormonal issues. I also liked to run regularly and ate a low calorie vegetarian diet for awhile.

Anyhow, I was having the night sweats and was very low in progesterone. Low estrogen means nothing if you are around menopausal age because it can be stored in your tissues and not show in blood work. I started taking high doses of progesterone (mainly because I wanted to try to reverse my menopause) and I began Cynoplus and the night sweats stopped and I was able to bring my progesterone & serum estrogen levels up (which is a sign that things were beginning to function again). You may want to check yourself for hypothyroid symptoms - it's not uncommon in athletic types. And progest-e could be very beneficial for you.

 

[rtrollinger]

Hi Lindsay,
Yes, I'm menstruating, but it seems to be shorter. Please give me some advise as far as reversing my menopause! Did high doses of progesterone really do the trick. I've never heard of Cynoplus. Also, did the annoying surface veins go away once your hormones were in balance? I did go to the vein doctor, and he did an ultrasound of my legs, and he said the veins were very healthy and I did not have any varicose, I just assumed a few were because they were squiggly! I do have progesterone cream and pregnanolone cream. All I'm using now is the pregnanolone, because I've heard that it is the hormone that all can use. If my body needs progesterone it will convert to prog. And if my body needs dhea it cconverts,etc.

 

[tara]

The consequences of anorexia nervosa and anorexia athletica include severely reduced hormones, amongst other damage. Night sweats are often caused by insuffient blood sugar or glycogen stores. Chronic energy deficiency means the body is forced to break down its own proteins to supply the necessary energy.

According to Gwyneth Olwyn at youreatopia.com (not Peat), recovery from anorexia nervosa and anorexia athletica require at least 2500 cal every day for women over 25 yrs, and 3000 cal if under 25, and more anytime you are hungry for more, and to be as sedentary as possible. You can't just eat more to make up for the energy burned during exercise, because exercise interferes with hormones in a way that prevents healing.
There are some differences between Peat's and Olwyn's viewpoints (eg Olwyn encourages eaing nuts and seeds; Peat does not), but I think the ideas about energy balance and the damage done by insufficient energy intake are consistent.

How to recover:
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2013/3/ ... ating.html
About exercise:
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2011/11 ... u-bet.html
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2013/2/ ... ivity.html
What to expect durinng recovery
http://www.youreatopia.com/blog/2012/11 ... order.html

There is a thread on this forum here discussing recovery from undereating. There's not a lot about exercise on this thread at this stage.
viewtopic.php?f=11&t=4028

Take care.

 

[rtrollinger]

Thanks Tara!
I've gone close to 5 months not restricting food (2500+ cals) and not binging. I've never done that in my entire screwed up food life! And I realize that the extreme exercise I was doing does a real number on my hormones. (Now I realize!) I want my life back in balance. I've struggled so hard in doing that. I have no appetite, and I realize that that has probably to do with ghrehlin, my leptin was scarily low. But now it's gone up to low, and not so scarily low. I don't think I mind gaining (more) weight, I just want my body back, not the thin body, just my body, without all these imbalances. I will check out the links you posted, and thank you for responding!

 

[Blossom]

That's fabulous! I've been eating 2,500 calories per day for the last 5 months too! When I first discovered Peat I wouldn't have considered myself as having an eating disorder but gradually as I began to get rest and nourishment I realized how long I had spent under eating and how damaging it truly was for me. Yes, I was very sick but I think I had unknowingly brought most of it on myself by not eating well and over exercising. Peat's work and Gwyneth's articles have helped me reclaim my life. It hasn't always been easy but it's way better than slowly starving to death and existing in that miserable condition. Btw- My appetite and sex drive have gradually started to returned. I'm sure everyone is a little bit different but I had neither for close to a decade so I'm pleased with those results. I was probably eating about 1800-2000 calories a day for 10 months before I decided to go up to 2500 (thanks tara) so I had a period of time where I was doing better with eating more but still not at full recovery levels. I think it takes time, persistence and dedication to recover from a lifetime of inadequate nutrition but it can be done! I just wanted you to know your not the only one.

 

[rtrollinger]

I just want some insight into these cyclical surface veins all over. Sometimes they are recessed (about the time of my ovulation), and 23I days of the month they are popping out of my skin. I don't understand. It has gone on too long, and I am beyond my wit's end. 6 months ago I never even noticed a vein on my body. Sorry, I am dumbfounded, and I've never heard of anything like this happening to anyone. I'm proud of my accomplishments (I am very humble) but I don't know why this happening. I want it to just be my body adjusting, but it doesn't seem to be getting better.

 

[tara]

I think Peat has talked about veins particularly wrt progesterone. I think I have read here of someone using the protruding veins as an indicator of how much progest-e to use - they were taking enough progest-e to bring the veins down.

It seems likely to me that you may be suffering the consequences of long-term under-eating and over-exercising, and in that situation I gather that recovery is seldom completely smooth. I think it can be expected to take somewhere from a few months to a couple of years, assuming one persists. Continuing or resuming restrictive eating or exercise slows or interrupts the recovery.

I've gone close to 5 months not restricting food (2500+ cals) and not binging.

You may have already read this if you followed those links. In the context of recovery from anorexia, holding oneself back from 'binging' when the body asks for more food is effectively restricting. 2500 is approximately what it takes a mature adult woman (over 25) to maintain a healthy body and metabolism (not including high levels of exercise). Since there is likely to be a lot of repair and rebuilding to do, there will be times when the body needs quite a lot more than this. If you are hungry/feeling like eating more, it is not binging to go with it. It is meeting the body's needs for recovery. Holding back from 'bingeing' in this situation is effectively continuing restriction, and slowing down recovery.

 

[lindsay]

Hi Lindsay,
Yes, I'm menstruating, but it seems to be shorter. Please give me some advise as far as reversing my menopause! Did high doses of progesterone really do the trick. I've never heard of Cynoplus. Also, did the annoying surface veins go away once your hormones were in balance? I did go to the vein doctor, and he did an ultrasound of my legs, and he said the veins were very healthy and I did not have any varicose, I just assumed a few were because they were squiggly! I do have progesterone cream and pregnanolone cream. All I'm using now is the pregnanolone, because I've heard that it is the hormone that all can use. If my body needs progesterone it will convert to prog. And if my body needs dhea it cconverts,etc.

Hi rtrollinger: My periods were very short leading up to surgery I had for an ovarian tumor. I had that removed almost two years ago and discovered RP shortly thereafter (thank goodness!) A couple months after my surgery, I stopped menstruating entirely and the following autumn, blood tests confirmed I was post-menopausal (I was 30 at the time and haven't had children, so this was really upsetting). I still haven't menstruated in months (despite gaining about 15 to 20 lbs. since my surgery), but when I was very good about taking progest-e daily in high doses (about 400 mg), I had menstruation 2 months in a row. Then life got busy and I was traveling a lot and I stopped my doses and lost the rhythm. I was also taking 2 grains of Cynoplus at the time, which I don't recommend unless you have a thyroid panel done. Mine showed up normal, but high enough that everything could be out of whack. Anyhow, whatever you do, don't let your docs trick you into estrogen therapy.

So, to answer your question, it is possible you could reverse menopause, but I couldn't be sure of the progress I've made because I haven't had a blood test in almost a year (we have high deductible insurance and I had an appendectomy recently, so I'm up to my neck in hospital bills and refuse to pay for anything else until that's done). But my last blood test was two months after I started my progesterone/thyroid supplementation and my progesterone went from non-existent to 18 (I think - or maybe 16). Estrogen also went from <5 to like 8 or 9 (which means my remaining ovary had started to do something). Ultrasounds also showed that what had been a shrinking ovary surrounded by cystic fluid looked healthy and happy - this was after about 2 1/2 months of the supplements. The effects were quite profound. And then life got hectic. And now I've had the appendicitis setback.

At your age (not that you are old, it's just I had trouble with diet and nutrition alone and I'm only now 32), I would definitely get the thyroid checked and start progesterone supplementation. Progest-e or prometrium would be the only brands I would trust, but no doctor will give you a Prometrium prescription without estrogen therapy (unless you are seeing a fertility doctor) - at least here in the US. If I had waited for nutrition to help me, it could have taken ages, but the thyroid, nutritional/lifestyle changes and progesterone definitely helped. But I'm afraid I've never had varicose veins..... you could apply progest-e topically, as well as to the inside of your lips (mucous membrane for quick absorption into the blood stream).

On a side note, have you reduced your activity level? I think this is very important. I was swimming a lot and had to stop and just resort to walking (fresh air) and yoga. Definitely helps with the stress levels. Unfortunately, I still struggle getting decent calories because of bad digestion - the bane of my existence.

 

[rtrollinger]

I did have my thyroid levels checked at the beginning and end of September; the T3 had dropped 17 and it was at 64 (the norm is 80-200), and the free T4 at the end of September was at .84 (norm is .93-1.7). So I'm hypothyroid. And my cortisol was high (21). And I do limited exercise, I check my heart rate and make sure that it's not too elevated. I do half of the exercise that I used to, I have incorporated meditation into my day and yoga (which I have done for at least 10 years) and I realize how stress affects my hormones. But

 

[rtrollinger]

Also, I have increased my calories to close to 3,000. Unfortunately, I don't really have any appetite, so it's hard to really enjoy it. I know that as leptin goes up ghrehlin (hunger) comes down. And I suppose that's a good sign. My leptin levels were very, very low. So I'm hopeful they're going up. Thanks to all of you who responded!

 

[lindsay]

I did have my thyroid levels checked at the beginning and end of September; the T3 had dropped 17 and it was at 64 (the norm is 80-200), and the free T4 at the end of September was at .84 (norm is .93-1.7). So I'm hypothyroid. And my cortisol was high (21). And I do limited exercise, I check my heart rate and make sure that it's not too elevated. I do half of the exercise that I used to, I have incorporated meditation into my day and yoga (which I have done for at least 10 years) and I realize how stress affects my hormones. But

What about TSH - did they measure your TSH? Chances are that if cortisol is high, your TSH is also high. This is only beneficial if you want a doctor to give you a thyroid prescription, otherwise, you can gauge your thyroid by temperature and pulse, which should be more accurate at getting an overall picture of what's going on in the body.

 

[rtrollinger]

Hi Lindsay,

"What about TSH - did they measure your TSH? Chances are that if cortisol is high, your TSH is also high. This is only beneficial if you want a doctor to give you a thyroid prescription, otherwise, you can gauge your thyroid by temperature and pulse, which should be more accurate"

My TSH dropped from 1.7 (beginning of September) to .88 (end of September) Normal is .27-4.2. No clue what that significant drop means!

 

[lindsay]

My TSH dropped from 1.7 (beginning of September) to .88 (end of September) Normal is .27-4.2. No clue what that significant drop means!

Well that's a good sign! My TSH was at about 2.440 after months of changed diet and adding more calories, so that seems like a good improvement you've had. Still, I would get a regular thyroid panel done along with your other blood tests (if you have good insurance) - that way you can note progress. Also, checking waking temperature, after breakfast temperature and pulse is another good indicator of where things are at. I'm curious what your pulse is like, considering you are a runner...... when I ran regularly, my resting pulse could drop as low as 45 bpm. Ray Peat suggests 80 - 90 beat per minute at rest is good.