Starch - The Delicious Devil

Nicole W.

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This is a really interesting post, I enjoyed reading it.
Except for the part where your cousin said you looked terrible on your son’s wedding day. People say the stupidest things sometimes.🙄
 

PaRa

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well there is nothing wrong with boiled tubers, eat well salted boiled potatoes, steak and maybe fruits/juice on the side, you'll turn hot as hell, won't fart, and feel great.
starch and protein will elevate insulin, of course, like all you can eat, but if you're not stuffing yourself with excess calories you'll be ok insulin sensitive wise
 

Lord Cola

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Ask as many times as you need to Nicole! I have peppered so many things through this site I wouldn't even know where to find it! Maybe someday I will compile my hundreds of Ray Peat recipes in one place. I start with 3 cups of whole milk in my Bullet blender and add in one can of organic CHILLED sweetened condensed milk, about a tablespoon and a half of vanilla flavoring, a pinch of flaky maldon salt and let it blend through two cycles on the Bullet, to get air in. I put it in my ice cream maker for about 25 minutes, back in the freezer for 15 minutes and then back in my machine for another minute or two. Here it is and a few ways I use it. We eat A LOT of ice cream!
They look delicious. I love how colorful they are too. I would be very interested in looking at your recipes.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Ok! Gotcha. So what happened to your fat bread and pie makers from the 100 year old photos?

You suggest that fat and starch make a person skinny fat, but not in this case obviously.

Additionally, these women probably weren’t loading up on PUFAs, fortified flours, or HFCS.

Given that they lived long ago, these people likely worked hard. Lack of activity probably wasn’t an issue.

We rarely see fat people in old photos so I’m wondering if you have a theory about them.
I rarely see an old photo on the farm where the mature women, in the early 1900's or earlier, isn't fat or trying to look skinnier squeezing into a corset. And by the way I didn't suggest it first, that starch and fat makes people fat, Ray Peat did. I am just the messenger.
 

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Rinse & rePeat

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They look delicious. I love how colorful they are too. I would be very interested in looking at your recipes.
If I can think of a way to post my recipes in one place in an organized fashion I would be happy to collect them there. Until then ask me anytime, LordCola, for meal suggestions with any ingredients. Maybe that is it! I need to make an "Ask Rinse" post 😁
 

Nicole W.

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I rarely see an old photo on the farm where the mature women, in the early 1900's or earlier, isn't fat or trying to look skinnier squeezing into a corset. And by the way I didn't suggest it first, that starch and fat makes people fat, Ray Peat did. I am just the messenger.
Well, when Ray says that he conveniently ignores a world of human populations that remain lean on fat and starch. Has anyone ever heard him explain this phenomenon? Brad Marshall says that dairy fat high in stearic acid is a factor in preventing obesity ( at least in the French) , but I’m thinking high calcium intake among European populations from other dairy products would likely have that effect also. The photos you included reveal a lot. You are absolutely right, mature women at the turn of the century were often heavier. Maybe not obese, but certainly heavy. I think this is really informational for women today.
As much as we would like to blame obesity on modern toxins in our food supply, PUFA, lack of exercise or activity etc., it is obvious that old age and (likely) hormonal changes are a major factor in weight gain. This is the case even if there is a clean diet free of all the bad things that we spend so much time discussing on this forum. If you look at today’s elderly Amish women or Hutterite women, they look the same.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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well there is nothing wrong with boiled tubers, eat well salted boiled potatoes, steak and maybe fruits/juice on the side, you'll turn hot as hell, won't fart, and feel great.
starch and protein will elevate insulin, of course, like all you can eat, but if you're not stuffing yourself with excess calories you'll be ok insulin sensitive wise
PaRa, you and me both are not denying the magic of a perfectly prepared potato, which is a dozen different ways, or how many vitamins they nourish us with. The argument is more about slowing down digestion with them and grains rotting teeth with their anti-nutrients, aging skin with their phosphrus and PUFA's and are they an "OPTIMAL" food for good health. Ray Peat says they aren't. So the only argument left is do you believe him.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Well, when Ray says that he conveniently ignores a world of human populations that remain lean on fat and starch. Has anyone ever heard him explain this phenomenon? Brad Marshall says that dairy fat high in stearic acid is a factor in preventing obesity ( at least in the French) , but I’m thinking high calcium intake among European populations from other dairy products would likely have that effect also. The photos you included reveal a lot. You are absolutely right, mature women at the turn of the century were often heavier. Maybe not obese, but certainly heavy. I think this is really informational for women today.
As much as we would like to blame obesity on modern toxins in our food supply, PUFA, lack of exercise or activity etc., it is obvious that old age and (likely) hormonal changes are a major factor in weight gain. This is the case even if there is a clean diet free of all the bad things that we spend so much time discussing on this forum. If you look at today’s elderly Amish women or Hutterite women, they look the same.
I think Ray Peat ignoring how other cultures live isn't to turn a blind eye, but more about the science already proving what is optimal. I think what every starch lover on this forum, who clutch so tight to their little pleasures, isn't understanding is that their is more to the Ray Peat starch debate than "how it makes you feel", more than if you can lose weight, more than if it will cause or effect dementia. Ray Peat is an anti-aging thyroid doctor, so the real debate is what are you gonna look like at the end of your chosen path that had you eating a lot of devoid toast, teeth rotting oatmeal and other fat laden pleasures. How other cultures have successfully adapted to "animal food" is a whole other debate.
 

Nicole W.

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I think Ray Peat ignoring how other cultures live isn't to turn a blind eye, but more about the science already proving what is optimal. I think what every starch lover on this forum, who clutch so tight to their little pleasures, isn't understanding is that their is more to the Ray Peat starch debate than "how it makes you feel", more than if you can lose weight, more than if it will cause or effect dementia. Ray Peat is an anti-aging thyroid doctor, so the real debate is what are you gonna look like at the end of your chosen path that had you eating a lot of devoid toast, teeth rotting oatmeal and other fat laden pleasures. How other cultures have successfully adapted to "animal food" is a whole other debate.are studies and then there is epidemiological data
There are studies and then there is epidemiological data. Both are valuable of course, but I would think he would seek to reconcile the two. To say that this study or that study or “the science” shows that starch is obesogenic in the face of huge human populations that have remained lean on starch for millennia seems more than a little myopic. It would surprise me if he hasn’t addressed this inconsistency in an interview or article. At any rate, there is a piece of the puzzle that is not well understood yet.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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There are studies and then there is epidemiological data. Both are valuable of course, but I would think he would seek to reconcile the two. To say that this study or that study or “the science” shows that starch is obesogenic in the face of huge human populations that have remained lean on starch for millennia seems more than a little myopic. It would surprise me if he hasn’t addressed this inconsistency in an interview or article. At any rate, there is a piece of the puzzle that is not well understood yet.
I don't think I ever heard him say starch is obesigenic. He says starch and fat make fat, which is a good thing in ancient cultures where they didn't know where their next meal wa coming from, and could use a layer of fat during cold winters. In our day in age when people don't move around much and aren't relying a lot on protein like ancient cultures did we shouldn't be looking around, or in the mirror, and wonder what the big mystery is as to why all the fat is everywhere. After Ray Peat gives us the scientific reason for why it happens, what need would he have to ask more needless questions, he already did his experiments, Volkheimer did studies, Weston A Price already did and many other intelligent people. Instead of him going around and around and debating weight loss like everybody does, he moves to answering new and more interesting questions. He is is a doctor who puts his science into curing many patients with hormone, thyroid, metabolism and weight issues. Why would he put starch back into the equasion if all of his patients are getting healed quicker without them? If you you don't have weight issues, hormone issues or health issues enjoy starches until you do have them. It seems simple to me, but I am not struggling with anything anymore since giving them up. Ask the same question last year when when I was making every excuse to have them again and we all would be breaking bread together right now :)
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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There are studies and then there is epidemiological data. Both are valuable of course, but I would think he would seek to reconcile the two. To say that this study or that study or “the science” shows that starch is obesogenic in the face of huge human populations that have remained lean on starch for millennia seems more than a little myopic. It would surprise me if he hasn’t addressed this inconsistency in an interview or article. At any rate, there is a piece of the puzzle that is not well understood yet.
I also want to clarify Nicole W. that lean and muscular are two different body types. I have been skinny at 106 pounds, lean at 132 and muscular without fat at 152. Lean looks good when you are under 40, but it catches up to you when you get up in years and those starches aren't processed as well. Skinny doesn't look good in older years, and i haven't met anyone over the age of 40 that doesn't have a list of complaints except myself. Thank you Ray Peat 🥳
 

GreekDemiGod

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I am not a bodybuilder and neither is Ray Peat so we wouldn't be in the gym wasting time doing something like that. Body builders that dont want the damage of starches usually go keto.

Yeah, this is non-sense.
Carbs of any kind are very supportive for a muscular physique
 

Nicole W.

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I don't think I ever heard him say starch is obesigenic. He says starch and fat make fat, which is a good thing in ancient cultures where they didn't know where their next meal wa coming from, and could use a layer of fat during cold winters. In our day in age when people don't move around much and aren't relying a lot on protein like ancient cultures did we shouldn't be looking around, or in the mirror, and wonder what the big mystery is as to why all the fat is everywhere. After Ray Peat gives us the scientific reason for why it happens, what need would he have to ask more needless questions, he already did his experiments, Vokameir already did studies, Weston A Price already did and many other intelligent people. Instead of him going around and around and debating weight loss like everybody does, he moves to answering new and more interesting questions. He is is a doctor who puts his science into curing many patients with hormone, thyroid, metabolism and weight issues. Why would he put starch back into the equasion if all of his patients are getting healed quicker without them? If you you don't have weight issues, hormone issues or health issues enjoy starches until you do have them. It seems simple to me, but I am not struggling with anything anymore since giving them up. Ask the same question last year when when I was making every excuse to have them again and we all would be breaking bread together right now :)
Actually, he did say, famously, that consuming complex carbohydrates was a reasonable way to promote obesity.

I’m not necessarily contesting this theory as applied to myself but it’s hard to ignore that people TODAY, (not just years ago when there was food scarcity or other hardships) are extremely lean with diets high in saturated fats and starches. Look at the Swiss: They have the lowest BMI in Europe and one of the highest intakes of calories per capita which include lots of chocolate, milk, cheeses and other proteins. And bread. They really love their bread.

Ray has never been shy about using different cultures or populations to demonstrate a point that supports his narrative. But many of the starch/dairy consuming cultures have been largely ignored by him, l believe, because it doesn’t fit into his framework of what an optimal anti-aging diet looks like.
Mind you, these countries also have high life expectancy rates so we can’t assume they all die sooner because of their aging and destructive starch consumption.

Something does not add up here.

I am trying to point out there is room for further discussion on the subject of starch. It is not an open and shut case. Even Ray has said from time to time, that consuming starch is not incompatible with good health. I would understand that to mean that you can have an anti-aging, health promoting diet that includes starch.

Ultimately, I would like to hear his thoughts or theories on why there are populations in the world that are able to remain healthy, lean and long-lived eating saturated fat and starches in significant quantities. Is there something different about these people, the foods they are consuming, genetic differences etc.?
Now that would be an interesting discussion.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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Everybody keeps comparing ancient cultures, Asians and French people to why starch should is healthy, because "look they are lean", well so are the keto crowd, so are the Paleo crowd, so are low carbers and the calorie counters, what is the winning point to be made when everybody can be lean if they try to be healthy? They can all make you lean or even thin if that's what you are looking for. Why does everybody on this forum poo poo those camps who look lean and healthy, but somehow in a far away land they are so much better, than we are in this forum, eating the same crap. What do their teeth look like, how old do they look for their age, what are they all dying of, there is so much more to the starch debate than how to lose weight, too much to cover it all here!
 

Rinse & rePeat

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The difference between all the other camps, like Jenny Craig, Atkins and other "camps", including the French and Swiss is they are trying to be slim and eat yummy food. Ray Peat is not about losing weight, he is about health and anti-aging. Maybe there just isn't any stand out cultures that look as good as he thinks they can look to study, except Weston A Price. Now those are some anti-aging people who turned back time after they gave up grains.
 

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Nicole W.

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The difference between all the other camps, like Jenny Craig, Atkins and other "camps", including the French and Swiss is they are trying to be slim and eat yummy food. Ray Peat is not about losing weight, he is about health and anti-aging. Maybe there just isn't any stand out cultures that look as good as he thinks they can look to study, except Weston A Price. Now those are some anti-aging people who turned back time after they gave up grains.
I believe all these individuals were hypothyroid and all were given thyroid. It was the thyroid supplementation that transformed their health.
 

Rinse & rePeat

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I believe all these individuals were hypothyroid and all were given thyroid. It was the thyroid supplementation that transformed their health.
Weston A Price is a dentist, not a thyroid doctor. Yes these people are hypothyroid from their diets, not because they didn't get some desiccated cow thyroid. He set out to prove their teeth were rotting from their diet and took out grains and added bone broths and calcium rich foods to prove it. He has since, like Ray Peat, talked about sprouting grains to minimize their anti-nutrients for those who still want to partake and preserve their teeth.
 
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Rinse & rePeat

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Here are a few excerpts from his work.
 

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