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Oral Testosterone Increases Total Testosterone

Hans

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Aug 24, 2017
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There was a recent discussion that oral testosterone is ineffective for raising blood testosterone levels unless given in large doses, like 400mg daily.

Two studies (R, R) show that as low as 80mg daily is able to increase testosterone nicely.
Here's a pic from the second study:
ijan_335_t1.gif

Group 1 got 80mg daily and group 2 got 120mg daily in two doses.
Not an astronomical increase, but a decent increase. Not at good as topical in DMSO, but might be worth it.

Interestingly, estradiol and DHT decreased when testosterone was given, which could indicate that they are increased during stress, inflammation and hypogonadism. It would make sense that they would be elevated as the adrenals are overproducing DHEA in hypogonadism. DHEA would then be converted to androstenediol, DHT, estrone and estradiol.

Testosterone calms the adrenals and lowers excess cortisol, DHT and estradiol.
 

charlie

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Great work as always, Hans.

If it were you, would you go the 80mg route or 120mg route? Or maybe you have a different number in mind?
 

matisvijs

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Sep 25, 2018
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I use it intranasally from time to time - apparently it's 10x more effective that way, by my calculations, compared to oral, according to this study: Natesto™ , a Novel Testosterone Nasal Gel, Normalizes Androgen Levels in Hypogonadal Men - PubMed (Get the full text on sci-hub for the data). IIRC the 11mg dose of testosterone 3x per day intranasally raised T levels as much as 400mg oral route. Not sure whether it may be irritating to the nasal passages for some but, personally, have been doing it for a long time with no negative side-effects to report.
 

schultz

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Is there some reason why you can't just mix it with vitamin E and avoid portal absorption and massive liver metabolism? Vitamin E would allow it to be taken up by chylomicrons and bypass the liver.
 

Broken man

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Is there some reason why you can't just mix it with vitamin E and avoid portal absorption and massive liver metabolism? Vitamin E would allow it to be taken up by chylomicrons and bypass the liver.
Why you do want to do this when its working?
 
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Thanks. Second study shows testosterone exogenously given can shrink swollen prostates.
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The gradual reduction of plasma testosterone in middle‐aged and older men from mid‐life onwards coincides paradoxically with the time when there is progressive growth of the prostate, a highly androgen‐dependent organ. The growing interest in androgen therapy for older men makes it essential to understand the effects of exogenous testosterone on the non‐diseased prostate, yet few studies are available. The present study examined prostate volume, prostate‐specific antigen (PSA) and lower urinary tract symptom (IPSS) score in 207 men, aged 40–83 years, presenting with clinical features of age‐related androgen deficiency [sexual and/or urinary dysfunction, elevated lutenizing hormone (LH)] who were treated for 6 months with oral testosterone undecanoate (TU). Men were divided into two groups, group 1 (n=92, plasma testosterone levels > 13 nmol/L) were treated with 80 mg daily; group 2 (n=115, plasma testosterone levels < 13 nmol/L) were treated with given 120 mg daily. Before treatment and after 1, 3 and 6 months of treatment, prostate volume was measured by ultrasound and hormones [testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, oestradiol, LH, follicle‐stimulating hormone (FSH)] and PSA were measured. Within 1 month of treatment, the elevated blood LH levels were markedly decreased in all men in group 1, as well as most men in group 2. Group 2 was subdivided into men whose LH levels were suppressed (n=95, group 2a) and those whose LH levels did not suppress (n=20, group 2b). Men in group 1 and 2a had marked decreases in prostate volume, PSA and lower urinary tract symptom (IPSS) scores whereas no significant changes were observed in group 2b. Groups 1 and 2a also had more striking suppression of LH, FSH, dihydrotestosterone and oestradiol whereas group 2b had no significant increases in blood testosterone concentrations. These findings suggest that exogenous testosterone in middle‐aged and older men with some clinical features of age‐related androgen deficiency can retard or reverse prostate growth and that elevated plasma LH may be a useful index of severity of age‐related androgen deficiency.
 

Hans

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Great work as always, Hans.

If it were you, would you go the 80mg route or 120mg route? Or maybe you have a different number in mind?
Thanks. If my T is very low, I'd go the 120mg route, but if it was moderately low, I'd go with the 80mg route.
But if I had a choice, I'd go for topical instead, like 1-5mg in DMSO or vitamin E like Peat did/does.
 
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Is the 120mg group basically showing inefficacy because it is too high of a dose?

thus 80mg seems like the highest effective dosage?
 

Mhtro

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Thanks. If my T is very low, I'd go the 120mg route, but if it was moderately low, I'd go with the 80mg route.
But if I had a choice, I'd go for topical instead, like 1-5mg in DMSO or vitamin E like Peat did/does.
Testosterone as in Test E or Straight up T? This is quite interesting, I can even my get in injectables for cheap but how will you go about dissolving them in DMSO?
 

Hans

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Thanks. Second study shows testosterone exogenously given can shrink swollen prostates.
Error - Cookies Turned Off

The gradual reduction of plasma testosterone in middle‐aged and older men from mid‐life onwards coincides paradoxically with the time when there is progressive growth of the prostate, a highly androgen‐dependent organ. The growing interest in androgen therapy for older men makes it essential to understand the effects of exogenous testosterone on the non‐diseased prostate, yet few studies are available. The present study examined prostate volume, prostate‐specific antigen (PSA) and lower urinary tract symptom (IPSS) score in 207 men, aged 40–83 years, presenting with clinical features of age‐related androgen deficiency [sexual and/or urinary dysfunction, elevated lutenizing hormone (LH)] who were treated for 6 months with oral testosterone undecanoate (TU). Men were divided into two groups, group 1 (n=92, plasma testosterone levels > 13 nmol/L) were treated with 80 mg daily; group 2 (n=115, plasma testosterone levels < 13 nmol/L) were treated with given 120 mg daily. Before treatment and after 1, 3 and 6 months of treatment, prostate volume was measured by ultrasound and hormones [testosterone, dihydrotestosterone, oestradiol, LH, follicle‐stimulating hormone (FSH)] and PSA were measured. Within 1 month of treatment, the elevated blood LH levels were markedly decreased in all men in group 1, as well as most men in group 2. Group 2 was subdivided into men whose LH levels were suppressed (n=95, group 2a) and those whose LH levels did not suppress (n=20, group 2b). Men in group 1 and 2a had marked decreases in prostate volume, PSA and lower urinary tract symptom (IPSS) scores whereas no significant changes were observed in group 2b. Groups 1 and 2a also had more striking suppression of LH, FSH, dihydrotestosterone and oestradiol whereas group 2b had no significant increases in blood testosterone concentrations. These findings suggest that exogenous testosterone in middle‐aged and older men with some clinical features of age‐related androgen deficiency can retard or reverse prostate growth and that elevated plasma LH may be a useful index of severity of age‐related androgen deficiency.
Yes that was a great find.
Is the 120mg group basically showing inefficacy because it is too high of a dose?

thus 80mg seems like the highest effective dosage?
No they used 120mg in group 2 because they had below 13nmol/L T, whereas group 1 has above 13nmol/L, so they got 80mg.
Testosterone as in Test E or Straight up T? This is quite interesting, I can even my get in injectables for cheap but how will you go about dissolving them in DMSO?
I'd use just the T base and dissolve that in DMSO. It's what @TheBeard did with great success. He's experimenting with a T ester now I think for a long half-life.
 

schultz

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Why you do want to do this when its working?

It's a great idea, but I'd be interested to know how much better it will be.

Well, for one thing, (and I am only speculating here) it's possible that when the liver is excreting the excess testosterone that some of it is actually interfering with the blood test, which would throw off the results. It's also possible that that amount of T in the liver signals a sort of desensitization to the hormone (apart from any kind of 'shut down'). And again, I am no expert, but through the chylomicrons the T could be delivered to all tissues in the body, whereas this may not happen in the same way when it goes directly to the liver. It would also save money as you could use physiological doses of 5mg or so daily instead of 80mg.

This assumes that it is soluble in vitamin E of course. I don't actually know, but I am sure Ray does.
 
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The liver excretes testosterone in a sulfate or glucuronidated form though. Perhaps that’s the limitation of blood works, and saliva or dried urine testing are the way to go before making any claims.

interesting points you’re bringing up about serum testing limitations. What’s happening in the blood isn’t telling the whole story, we need surrogates like prolactin and others. Seems to me that prolactin goes down when the androgen/estrogen ratio goes up. And vice versa
 
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I have test cyp and enth powder. I remember georgi saying the esters aren’t ideal and base is better,
So I never tried.


Wondering if I should give it a go.
 
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aren't these dosages, including 80mg, not physiological?

I remember Dr. Peat talking about a few milligrams a day. Wouldn't that be better?
 
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Androgel is non-esterified and you can get a 25mg dose and divide it up, I don't see why you couldn't mix it with vitamin E and use 3mg -5mg a day topically.
 

homyak

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Sep 8, 2019
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Androgel is non-esterified and you can get a 25mg dose and divide it up, I don't see why you couldn't mix it with vitamin E and use 3mg -5mg a day topically.

I have used very small amounts of Androgel (5-10mg) and it is incredibly powerful. I absolutely love the testosterone boost, but couldn't handle the excessive hair shedding even using such small doses. I may try it again and mix it with 1-2 mg of Androsterone to inhibit its aromatization. If I wasn't losing hair with exogenous T I would 100% use it daily, it feels incredible.
 

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