haidut

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As I mentioned in a few other recent threads, even though it is laughed at in the bodybuilding world progesterone has been shown to have anabolic properties. I already posted about the anabolic effects of pregnenolone, but that study did not use the "standard" levator ani test.
The Anabolic Effects Of Pregnenolone

Below is one study which discusses progesterone's anabolic effects using the actual levator ani test and brings up some very good points. One of them is that the apparent anabolic superiority of testosterone may be overestimated due to the increase of water retention caused by testosterone and by other similar steroids. So, the gain in dry muscle weight should be the true measure of anabolic potential and by that measure progesterone is not far behind unesterified testosterone. That brings up another interesting point about the anabolic effects of DHT, which is known as a very "dry" steroid. Maybe by the dry muscle weight gain test in this study DHT is not any weaker anabolically than testosterone, and considering the undesirable effects of water gain it is actually superior as a supplemental steroid??
Anyways, to quote some numbers for more concrete perspective - according to this study progesterone had 85% of the anabolic effects of methyl testosterone and 50% of the anabolic effects of unesterified testosterone (see attached image). The HED for all steroids used in this study was 0.15mg/kg subcutaneously for 7 days, so this means a 10mg-15mg daily dose of progesterone in DMSO (to approximate the subcutaneous route) should be able to replicate the design of the study.
So, @TubZy an @Jsaute21 - you may want to take a look as I know you asked about anabolic effects of progesterone before.

The levator ani muscle of the rat as an index of myotrophic activity of steroidal hormones. - PubMed - NCBI
"...With steroidal compounds, some degree of retention of water may also he observed. It is therefore apparent that evaluation of the weight-producing effects of these compounds requires a correction for water content. Examination of the data for wet weight :dry weight (W: D) ratios shows the retention of water produced with the various steroids. It will he observed that part of the apparent superiority of testosterone propionate is caused by water retention, and that it actually produces slightly less increase in dry weight than that produced by unesterified testosterone. From the data based upon dry weight, the steroids fall into three groups as far as myotrophic activity is concerned. Unnesterified testosterone, testosterone propionate and methyl testosterone constitute the most potent group. Progesterone is moderately but significantly active (p <0.01). No significant increase in weight is noted from the administration of estradiol dipropionate, desoxycorticosterone acetate, cis-testosterone, or ethinyl testosterone, all of which have been reported to be inert as far as nitrogen retention is concerned (14)."

"...By this assay, pituitary growth hormone, unesterified testosterone, testosterone propionate and methyl testosterone are potent myotrophic agents; progesterone is moderately active; and estradiol dipropionate, cis-testosterone, desoxycorticosterone acetate, and ethinyl testosterone produce no significant increase in weight of the muscle."
 

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milk_lover

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Thanks for posting this, haidut! Have you worked out the appropriate dose for men in light of this study?
 

haidut

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Thanks for posting this, haidut! Have you worked out the appropriate dose for men in light of this study?

Yes, I did, its in the original post. About 10mg-15mg daily for 7 days.
 
J

jb116

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Amazing stuff @haidut. Would you say that "normal" amounts of caffeine would add to the progesterone in the system, in which case one would do better taking a bit less? We're talking 200mg or less daily, akin to benefiting the liver but not going nuts with it. I ask because I have successfully been doing that. I increased caffeine and lowered exogenous progesterone intake.

Also, out of interest, do you think 1 week on and 1 week off is ideal, and just continue cycling like that as necessary? I've personally done 1 week or thereabouts, but then doubled the time off.
 

haidut

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Amazing stuff @haidut. Would you say that "normal" amounts of caffeine would add to the progesterone in the system, in which case one would do better taking a bit less? We're talking 200mg or less daily, akin to benefiting the liver but not going nuts with it. I ask because I have successfully been doing that. I increased caffeine and lowered exogenous progesterone intake.

Also, out of interest, do you think 1 week on and 1 week off is ideal, and just continue cycling like that as necessary? I've personally done 1 week or thereabouts, but then doubled the time off.

I posted a study on lower doses caffeine (200mg - 300mg) being androgenic so I would not be surprised if this moderate increase in progesterone is what explains the effects of caffeine. In higher doses caffeine becomes almost exclusively progestogenic and has been shown to lower T levels but that may be due to another mechanism as well.
I think taking a break from all steroids would be advisable. Maybe a few weeks on and one week off. Ray has lately started recommended weekly dosing of pregnenolone. I think he said 500mg pregnenolone once a week to a few people with serious issues. Maybe the same can be done with progesterone - a higher single weekly dose would avoid the need for cycling. I am not sure, but it is worth trying.
 
J

jb116

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I posted a study on lower doses caffeine (200mg - 300mg) being androgenic so I would not be surprised if this moderate increase in progesterone is what explains the effects of caffeine. In higher doses caffeine becomes almost exclusively progestogenic and has been shown to lower T levels but that may be due to another mechanism as well.
I think taking a break from all steroids would be advisable. Maybe a few weeks on and one week off. Ray has lately started recommended weekly dosing of pregnenolone. I think he said 500mg pregnenolone once a week to a few people with serious issues. Maybe the same can be done with progesterone - a higher single weekly dose would avoid the need for cycling. I am not sure, but it is worth trying.
I think that's a good point. I think actually cycling many things is much more beneficial and probably an efficient way not to create imbalance. Of course the amounts and frequency needed is determined by individual case-by-case method and state of health. As an example of not just steroids, I use mitolipin as an occasional vit. E supplement guard as well when eating meals I suspect are higher in pufa (no more disgusting digestion!)
 

bzmazu

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I posted a study on lower doses caffeine (200mg - 300mg) being androgenic so I would not be surprised if this moderate increase in progesterone is what explains the effects of caffeine. In higher doses caffeine becomes almost exclusively progestogenic and has been shown to lower T levels but that may be due to another mechanism as well.
I think taking a break from all steroids would be advisable. Maybe a few weeks on and one week off. Ray has lately started recommended weekly dosing of pregnenolone. I think he said 500mg pregnenolone once a week to a few people with serious issues. Maybe the same can be done with progesterone - a higher single weekly dose would avoid the need for cycling. I am not sure, but it is worth trying.

Definetly would like to learn more about this....I take 3 drops every other day and drink 3-4 cups coffee a day.
 

TubZy

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Interesting- thanks. I can't comment on dosage in regards to DMSO but I only need like 3mg-6mg of progesterone in vit E to feel an effect. At one point, I went up to 100mg orally (without DHEA) and I felt really good for the first two days or so followed by being puffy, muscle were flat etc. It went away when I added DHEA back in.

I think there is a fine line to get the dosage right. I can say that I feel more anabolic on prog/DHEA rather than just DHEA alone.
 

haidut

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haidut

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Interesting- thanks. I can't comment on dosage in regards to DMSO but I only need like 3mg-6mg of progesterone in vit E to feel an effect. At one point, I went up to 100mg orally (without DHEA) and I felt really good for the first two days or so followed by being puffy, muscle were flat etc. It went away when I added DHEA back in.

I think there is a fine line to get the dosage right. I can say that I feel more anabolic on prog/DHEA rather than just DHEA alone.

The 100mg, especially in a good solvent may be too anti-androgenic without added DHEA. I think the dose this study used (10mg-15mg) is much safer and it is less likely to saturate enzymes or trigger negative feedbacks somewhere. Just out of curiosity, is preg/DHEA or prog/DHEA more androgenic/anabolic for you?
 

TubZy

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The 100mg, especially in a good solvent may be too anti-androgenic without added DHEA. I think the dose this study used (10mg-15mg) is much safer and it is less likely to saturate enzymes or trigger negative feedbacks somewhere. Just out of curiosity, is preg/DHEA or prog/DHEA more androgenic/anabolic for you?

Not sure how exactly 3-6mg would translate to 10-15mg in dmso. I tried the 100mg dose b/c of the study you posted about how prog can boost T/DHT pretty significantly.

Prog/DHEA I feel more anabolic and androgenic on for sure.

As you know, I started with high dose oral preg only for a few weeks and my libido skyrocketed along with some mild anabolic effects. Then I tried to add in DHEA with the high dose oral preg (even a few mg's) and I felt really weird and fatigued/tired etc.

Then just recently, I decided to give prog a shot once my 5a-DHP bottle ran out. So I tried prog and it worked well for the first few days and boom got the anti androgenic effects. I saw a post about how you and Ray suggested adding DHEA with the prog to counteract any anti androgenic issues (especially for males). So I added in 5mg at exactly the same time as my prog and the anti androgenic effects went away except the anabolic and androgenic effects increased much more and my libido really increased and did not get the weird, fatigue, tired feeling from the DHEA like I did when I combined preg/dhea.

So I suspected the entire time the benefits I was receiving from high dose oral preg in the beginning was the downstream conversion into progesterone (especially in high doses which I was using ~150mg).

So currently, I take around ~5mg of prog with 5mg of DHEA with no issues.
 

bzmazu

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Feel strong and really good on this regimen...but have been wondering if every day would be even better or rather once a week going big? or? or?...this same regimen applies to my Panst/Andro 4/2 drops, but not on same days as Progest.
I guess I should leave well enough alone, but would really like to know if I could improve on all of it....experiment I guess...will watch this thread with interest...as I do all others relating to this...and eventually I will find "my" answer to it...
 

haidut

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Not sure how exactly 3-6mg would translate to 10-15mg in dmso. I tried the 100mg dose b/c of the study you posted about how prog can boost T/DHT pretty significantly.

Prog/DHEA I feel more anabolic and androgenic on for sure.

As you know, I started with high dose oral preg only for a few weeks and my libido skyrocketed along with some mild anabolic effects. Then I tried to add in DHEA with the high dose oral preg (even a few mg's) and I felt really weird and fatigued/tired etc.

Then just recently, I decided to give prog a shot once my 5a-DHP bottle ran out. So I tried prog and it worked well for the first few days and boom got the anti androgenic effects. I saw a post about how you and Ray suggested adding DHEA with the prog to counteract any anti androgenic issues (especially for males). So I added in 5mg at exactly the same time as my prog and the anti androgenic effects went away except the anabolic and androgenic effects increased much more and my libido really increased and did not get the weird, fatigue, tired feeling from the DHEA like I did when I combined preg/dhea.

So I suspected the entire time the benefits I was receiving from high dose oral preg in the beginning was the downstream conversion into progesterone (especially in high doses which I was using ~150mg).

So currently, I take around ~5mg of prog with 5mg of DHEA with no issues.

Thanks. Btw, Ray told me the same over email. He thinks most of the benefits of pregnenolone people see are downstream effects of conversion into progesterone.
 

TubZy

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Thanks. Btw, Ray told me the same over email. He thinks most of the benefits of pregnenolone people see are downstream effects of conversion into progesterone.

Yup! Yeah, I think that is why Ray suggests a high dose of preg for people recovering from steroids, PFS, trauma etc. He told me to start at 150mg of preg when originally I told him I tried 50mg a while back less and didn't notice anything, probably not enough to stimulate prog conversion high enough.
 

milk_lover

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@haidut just like @TubZy, I get very good results from prog (1.5-3mg) and pansterone (one drop daily). I tried pregnenolone and I don't think I and she are friends. So my question is would you ever consider a supplement of prog+DHEA just like pansterone but replace preg with prog?
 

Rand56

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Sorry if this has been answered before, is Progestene also available without the DMSO? I'm like TubZy, I've had trouble handling DHEA, and since he has had some good effects combining with progesterone, could be worth a shot for me to give it a whirl.
 

haidut

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@haidut just like @TubZy, I get very good results from prog (1.5-3mg) and pansterone (one drop daily). I tried pregnenolone and I don't think I and she are friends. So my question is would you ever consider a supplement of prog+DHEA just like pansterone but replace preg with prog?

Why not combine Pansterone and Progestene? The small dose pregnenolone in Pansterone does not cause you issues does it? It looks like pregnenolone on its own is what caused you issues.
 

haidut

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Sorry if this has been answered before, is Progestene also available without the DMSO? I'm like TubZy, I've had trouble handling DHEA, and since he has had some good effects combining with progesterone, could be worth a shot for me to give it a whirl.

Not yet, Progestene is only in DMSO. Why is DMSO a problem for you?
 

Rand56

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Not yet, Progestene is only in DMSO. Why is DMSO a problem for you?

Ok thanks Haidut. I'm worried more about the potentiation effect with DMSO. Correct me if I'm wrong, but its approx. 10 X right? I'm male, and want to make sure I start at a low mg amount.
 
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