I Have Started And Stopped Starch Like 50 Times And The End Result Is Always The Same

[SamuraiJack]

I experienced many of these same things as well. The steadier blood sugar/insulin control has been a huge benefit for me.

I too am wondering why starch is so detrimental to some of us. I have a hunch that thickeners like carrageenan and gum additives cause permanent damage to the digestive tract, causing increased permeability and allowing presorption to happen at a higher rate than would ordinarily occur. Couple that with getting bottle fed and/or a cesarean birth and the stage is set for a person to acquire some degree of dysbiosis (and therefore endotoxin). Later in life, the accumulation of other environmental stressors, plus possibly genetic predispositions, would lead to full on bowel inflammation and systemic effects. I suppose the ones who have less stress and/or more resilience can continue to eat starches with no problems.

Yes, I've been so grateful for that benefit, most important one for me. To have suffered blood sugar swings for the past couple odd years and having it pretty much cured? it's a true blessing.

Yes i agree. Makes sense. I'm aware of gums causing gut damage and possibly adding to the leaky gut situation. For sure, formula fed babies have such an unfortunate, bad start to life. Could definitely have caused the beginnings to a leaky gut. I believe a gut infested with bad bacteria, yeast even endotoxin could be causing the inflammation in the gut, leading to leaky gut, food insensitives etc.

Healing my own was a huge part of my life at the start of this year.

I think removing starch has taken us to a higher degree of healing. Individuals who can handle gluten, starch etc with no issues at an older age must have had a great, healthy upbringing, with aware parents.

 

[SamuraiJack]

Well, it's hard to die of a degenerative disease like diabetes or cancer in your 70s or 80s when you've already died from something like tuberculosis in your 30s or 40s.

The modern food supply absolutely has problems. So did the food supply 1,000 years ago. Quit acting like everything was perfect back then, and no one had any health issues.

U talk as if the world back then was in a constant bubonic plague situation and everyone was dying off from TB, typhoid or whatever.

Yes, people did die from such issues, won't deny that. but not as on a scale as you're thinking. How many people are dying of the issues i outlined previously?bloody millions.

What kind of issues did the food supply have back then? Are u comparing it to today's supply? If that's what u think, that's stupid af.
Food back then was glorious... Full to the brim of nutrients... Where eating it was like true instant medicine. People will agree with me if they understand.
Research what's happening to the food supply now, look at the nutrient depletion levels now, hybridisation, tons of pesticides, fungicides, hormonal disrupting chemicals, roundup... before u start spouting bs

 

[SamuraiJack]

Im glad this thread got so popular. Im sorry i haven't answered to any comments, there is just too much.. I think endotoxin is definitely one of the biggest contributors to high serotonin/cortisol/inflammation and starch in many people is the major cause. Of course if the digestion and body is sluggish in general, every food is a problem.

Good points. Agreed.
So in relation to starch and endotoxin, is it the starch itself that is feeding the bacterial growth? Causing a surge in endotoxin?
Or starch containing foods, harbouring endotoxin?
Like the foods that contain mycotoxins etc

 

[tankasnowgod]

What kind of issues did the food supply have back then? Are u comparing it to today's supply? If that's what u think, that's stupid af.
Food back then was glorious... Full to the brim of nutrients... Where eating it was like true instant medicine. People will agree with me if they understand.
Research what's happening to the food supply now, look at the nutrient depletion levels now, hybridisation, tons of pesticides, fungicides, hormonal disrupting chemicals, roundup... before u start spouting bs

The food supply had plenty of issues. First off, preservation. They didn't have refrigeration, so foods were either heavily salted, or fermented for longer storage.

When milk was transported, it was transported warm, which allowed for heavy bacterial growth.

There's also the very real possibility that there simply wasn't enough of it. If starving to death, a PUFA loaded Twinkee is better than nothing.

Over the past 200 years, average life expectancy has doubled-

200 years of public health has doubled our life expectancy

With National Public Health Week taking place April 3-9, I ask you to take a trip back in time and imagine yourself living 200 years ago in 1817. Living conditions then were vastly different from today due to poor sanitation, lack of proper sewage

sjbpublichealth.org

And better sanitation is the main factor-

Draining the swamp — LessWrong

In an earlier post, I outlined our main weapons against infectious disease, including vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, pest control, sanitation, a…

www.lesswrong.com

"Food handling improved as well. Milk is a case in point: In England, as of the late 1800s, milk was transported warm in open containers, making it a literal breeding ground for tuberculosis and other bacterial diseases. Pasteurization was introduced around 1900, along with sealed tins and bottles for transporting and storing milk. Condensed and evaporated milk also became popular around this time, and since these products were sterile they also reduced diseases. All these innovations contributed to the rapid decline in infant mortality seen here: [11]"

Notice the big effort put into water, as well. These efforts started in the mid 1700s-

• to drain swamps, bogs, moats, and other sites of standing water
• to introduce hydraulic devices that would circulate water in canals and cisterns
• to flush refuse from areas of human habitation
• to ventilate living quarters and meeting places and to burn sulfur sticks or apply other insecticidal measures in houses, hospitals, prisons, meeting halls, and ships
• to inter corpses outside the city
• and by other measures, including refuse burial, to detach humankind from organic waste

 

[Zpol]

JamesIV mentioned this book as an interesting read.

www.breakingtheviciouscycle.info/p/beginners-guide/
www.goodreads.com/book/show/416166.Breaking_the_Vicious_Cycle

This diet doesn't allow lactose or sucrose, which is interesting because all fruits are like 50% sucrose and rest are free fructose and glucose, so if you eat any fruit , you are ingesting sucrose. Lactose is not that different from sucrose. But the basic idea of the book is right. It doesn't focus on endotoxin, but on bacteria. And we know those things go hand in hand.

The Specific Carbohydrate Diet as outlined by Elaine Gottschall in Breaking the Vicious Cycle stems from the original protocol which Gottschall used to treat her own daughter who was suffering from inflammatory bowel disease. The original protocol was developed by her daughter's NY-based pediatrician named Dr. Sydney Haas and was a lot simpler and just as effective as the SCD (according to my research). Elaine Gottschall ironed out some of the details but added some unnecessary details too in my opinion (including the sucrose/lactose avoidance). Dr. Haas' diet was as follows; low fat, high carb, easy to digest diet that consisted of albumin milk, pot cheese, bananas, oranges, vegetables, gelatin, and meat.
The good thing about the SCD is that Gottschall took the time and analyzed hundreds of foods in her lab to determine their molecular structure and categorized them based on their monosaccharides, disaccharides, and polysaccharides content. She then took that info and formed a legal/illegal list which she made available for free. I personally don't follow SCD but I do reference the list if I'm unsure about the starch content of a food.

 

[SamuraiJack]

The food supply had plenty of issues. First off, preservation. They didn't have refrigeration, so foods were either heavily salted, or fermented for longer storage.

When milk was transported, it was transported warm, which allowed for heavy bacterial growth.

There's also the very real possibility that there simply wasn't enough of it. If starving to death, a PUFA loaded Twinkee is better than nothing.

Over the past 200 years, average life expectancy has doubled-

200 years of public health has doubled our life expectancy

With National Public Health Week taking place April 3-9, I ask you to take a trip back in time and imagine yourself living 200 years ago in 1817. Living conditions then were vastly different from today due to poor sanitation, lack of proper sewage

sjbpublichealth.org

And better sanitation is the main factor-

Draining the swamp — LessWrong

In an earlier post, I outlined our main weapons against infectious disease, including vaccines, antibiotics, antiseptics, pest control, sanitation, a…

www.lesswrong.com

"Food handling improved as well. Milk is a case in point: In England, as of the late 1800s, milk was transported warm in open containers, making it a literal breeding ground for tuberculosis and other bacterial diseases. Pasteurization was introduced around 1900, along with sealed tins and bottles for transporting and storing milk. Condensed and evaporated milk also became popular around this time, and since these products were sterile they also reduced diseases. All these innovations contributed to the rapid decline in infant mortality seen here: [11]"

Notice the big effort put into water, as well. These efforts started in the mid 1700s-

• to drain swamps, bogs, moats, and other sites of standing water
• to introduce hydraulic devices that would circulate water in canals and cisterns
• to flush refuse from areas of human habitation
• to ventilate living quarters and meeting places and to burn sulfur sticks or apply other insecticidal measures in houses, hospitals, prisons, meeting halls, and ships
• to inter corpses outside the city
• and by other measures, including refuse burial, to detach humankind from organic waste

'food supply had plenty of issues' yet discuss one issue about... Milk? Which I will debunk right now.

They didn't have refrigeration. I agree. But they didn't need it. We do because our food is dead and can't survive without the cold without becoming a bacterial mess.

'' foods were either heavily salted, or fermented for longer storage.''

Yeah... And?
This was the norm for millennia. This worked. Are u implying that populations died because of this method of prolongation? Maybe a very small amount did due to bad sanitary conditions. How many are dying cus of the food today? U won't know the stats cus u haven't researched.
This is how our ancestors stored food with no major issues at all. I would happily go back to this way if fridges went extinct.
Fermentation allows for good bacteria production... Extends shelf life... Bit of extra salt is never a bad thing.
What's your point here?

Life expectancy hasn't doubled. It has increased. But guess what, quality of life has gone right down the sh*tter.
People are suffering today. Ever worked in a hospital? Look at the state people are in.
I'd happily die 20 years earlier to live a life of beautiful health like people did centuries ago than suffer like those today.

Right.. And u present me with some scant sources about milk in the 1800s..no where near the 1000+ years we were discussing.

First things first, it seems like you're a germophobe who doesn't understand 'bacteria'. U remind me of someone who puts their mask on in their car.

From previous research, milk during that time was kept in terrible conditions. Near open sewers, men use to dip their feet in the warm milk in the winter to keep their feet warm. Etc etc.
Didn't mention that did they?
Seems like they are promoting pasteurisation of the milk, which i don't agree with at all. Which u seem to, and seem to prefer everything being pasteurised and refrigerated due to fear of 'bacteria'.
Don't tell me u believe it was all because of leaving the milk out for a bit? Jesus.
Obviously u haven't tried, researched raw milk? Completely different product. Full of good bacteria..won't 'spoil'... Will turn into yoghurt, sour cream.
How do u think our ancestors got their yoghurt etc? Wasn't muller back then I'll tell u that. Oh and im speaking from the beginning of mankind.. No fridges either. Read literature that's 1000s of years old and you'll get a better understanding of how food was used and consumed.

What does pasteurisation do? Destroys it. Kills bad bacteria, enzymes. Reduces nutrient content. Why do u think this sh*t needs refrigeration? Leave this out for a day it's bad. Its lost its natural armour, bad bacteria will now thrive in this excuse of an allowed product, without constant refrigeration.
Raw milk doesn't need refrigeration for days.

Now this was a little situation in the UK. Obviously they mistreated milk and it became dangerous. Was this a world wide issue with milk? Can u provide more evidence from other countries? Probably not.

Your counter response was invalid.
I'll leave it there, got better things to do.

 

[tankasnowgod]

Right.. And u present me with some scant sources about milk in the 1800s..no where near the 1000+ years we were discussing.

First things first, it seems like you're a germophobe who doesn't understand 'bacteria'. U remind me of someone who puts their mask on in their car.

"Scant Sources?" You haven't provided one, nor debunked anything. Show me your source for the nutrient content of food 1,000 years ago, whether that was in the city or the country, and the corresponding life span. And then show how those people 1,000 years ago prevented standing water, dealt with garbage and feces, and prevented insects and other pests from eating and contaminating their food.

I am not a germaphobe, and I have never worn a mask in a car. Never will. At the same time, I certainly don't want to drink standing water, or have feces running down the middle of the street. I absolutely prefer having indoor plumbing refrigeration, and regular garbage collection.

 

[SamuraiJack]

'food supply had plenty of issues' yet discuss one issue about... Milk? Which I will debunk right now.

They didn't have refrigeration. I agree. But they didn't need it. We do because our food is dead and can't survive without the cold without becoming a bacterial mess.

'' foods were either heavily salted, or fermented for longer storage.''

Yeah... And?
This was the norm for millennia. This worked. Are u implying that populations died because of this method of prolongation? Maybe a very small amount did due to bad sanitary conditions. How many are dying cus of the food today? U won't know the stats cus u haven't researched.
This is how our ancestors stored food with no major issues at all. I would happily go back to this way if fridges went extinct.
Fermentation allows for good bacteria production... Extends shelf life... Bit of extra salt is never a bad thing.
What's your point here?

Right.. And u present me with some scant sources about milk in the 1800s..no where near the 1000+ years we were discussing.

First things first, it seems like you're a germophobe who doesn't understand 'bacteria'. U remind me of someone who puts their mask on in their car.

From previous research, milk during that time was kept in terrible conditions. Near open sewers, men use to dip their feet in the warm milk in the winter to keep their feet warm. Etc etc.
Didn't mention that did they?
Seems like they are promoting pasteurisation of the milk, which i don't agree with at all. Which u seem to, and seem to prefer everything being pasteurised and refrigerated due to fear of 'bacteria'.
Don't tell me u believe it was all because of leaving the milk out for a bit? Jesus.
Obviously u haven't tried, researched raw milk? Completely different product. Full of good bacteria..won't 'spoil'... Will turn into yoghurt, sour cream.
How do u think our ancestors got their yoghurt etc? Wasn't muller back then I'll tell u that. Oh and im speaking from the beginning of mankind.. No fridges either. Read literature that's 1000s of years old and you'll get a better understanding of how food was used and consumed.

What does pasteurisation do? Destroys it. Kills bad bacteria, enzymes. Reduces nutrient content. Why do u think this sh*t needs refrigeration? Leave this out for a day it's bad. Its lost its natural armour, bad bacteria will now thrive in this excuse of an allowed product, without constant refrigeration.
Raw milk doesn't need refrigeration for days.

Now this was a little situation in the UK. Obviously they mistreated milk and it became dangerous. Was this a world wide issue with milk? Can u provide more evidence from other countries? Probably not.

Your counter response was invalid.
I'll leave it there, got better things to do.

"Scant Sources?" You haven't provided one, nor debunked anything. Show me your source for the nutrient content of food 1,000 years ago, whether that was in the city or the country, and the corresponding life span. And then show how those people 1,000 years ago prevented standing water, dealt with garbage and feces, and prevented insects and other pests from eating and contaminating their food.

I am not a germaphobe, and I have never worn a mask in a car. Never will. At the same time, I certainly don't want to drink standing water, or have feces running down the middle of the street. I absolutely prefer having indoor plumbing refrigeration, and regular garbage collection.

I don't need to. It's bleedingly obvious. U can find those stats yourself if u bothered to research it. People who aren't ignorant here will agree with me.
The fact that u think food hasn't changed much since a 1000 years ago is hilariously stupid.
Clearly u are uneducated and ignorant in this..area of life.
U have a long way to go... Research past people's/nations diets, methods of refrigeration, health, read biographies of notable people from millenia ago. Hippocrates is a good start.

Re-read, i said ''U remind me of someone who puts their mask on in their car.''
Not that u did.

Sorry to say, you're just an average dude with no true knowledge of history and the comparison of today’s atrocities.
I advise u to simply do your research and you'll come to know. Bless those around u with true knowledge.. Not what u 'believe'
Back to the drawing board with u sir.
Night

 

[tankasnowgod]

I don't need to. It's bleedingly obvious. U can find those stats yourself if u bothered to research it. People who aren't ignorant here will agree with me.
The fact that u think food hasn't changed much since a 1000 years ago is hilariously stupid.
Clearly u are uneducated and ignorant in this..area of life.
U have a long way to go... Research past people's/nations diets, methods of refrigeration, health, read biographies of notable people from millenia ago. Hippocrates is a good start.

Re-read, i said ''U remind me of someone who puts their mask on in their car.''
Not that u did.

Sorry to say, you're just an average dude with no true knowledge of history.
I advise u to simply do your research and you'll come to know. Bless those around u with true knowledge.. Not what u 'believe'
Back to the drawing board with u sir.
Night

Amazing smugness. "I don't have to provide any sources because of course I am right." Completely ridiculous. Circular logic, and no one can change your mind with any evidence, because evidence doesn't matter, because you're right.

Where did I make the claim that food hasn't changed much in 1000 years? I don't think that, and in fact pointed to some differences, like refrigeration and fermentation.

"Clearly u are uneducated and ignorant in this" If you are going to call someone "ignorant," the least you could do is spell the word "you" correctly.

I don't think you have much value to bring on this forum, so I will be hitting the "ignore" button at this time. I suggest "u" do the same.

 

[SamuraiJack]

Amazing smugness. "I don't have to provide any sources because of course I am right." Completely ridiculous. Circular logic, and no one can change your mind with any evidence, because evidence doesn't matter, because you're right.

Where did I make the claim that food hasn't changed much in 1000 years? I don't think that, and in fact pointed to some differences, like refrigeration and fermentation.

"Clearly u are uneducated and ignorant in this" If you are going to call someone "ignorant," the least you could do is spell the word "you" correctly.

I don't think you have much value to bring on this forum, so I will be hitting the "ignore" button at this time. I suggest "u" do the same.

Hahaha. Dropped your dummy mate?

People of past times didn't;
Grow crops using aggressive farming.
Use NPK fertilisers
They gave the land rest allowing nutrition to rise in the soil.
Did not for sure bombard crops with tonnes of pesticides, poisons, round up ready.
Didn't hybridise almost every crop they had. It was in its all natural form.
Importantly of all, their wasn't an elite group/governments trying to kill the population.
Etc etc

'U' are a sheep. Like almost everyone else (a lot on this forum are not and are awake). You're limited.

Typical. Come to the point where 'u' are now criticising my spelling.

Get some rest, it's past your bedtime.

 

[gaze]

i think the biggest problem with peoples diets in the past 2000 years is, especially in europe, the majority of the population has had to live on brown bread, beer, low quality meat once a week, etc. the people on this diet were the ones dieing of the bubonic plague and tuberculosis and pneumonia, coupled with low vitamin D in europe. the "ray peat diet" of milk, fruit, cream, shellfish, sugary things, was basically the aristocrats and royalty diet. food scarcity in general used to be the biggest problem, because poor people couldn't afford good nutrition, but now all peoples food is crap

 

[stackz07]

Milk, honey and fruit juice are my go-to souces. Apple juice gives me tons of energy.

How do you not get constipated from all your milk? Seems like you drink an insane amount of milk to reach your protein needs.

 

[not_James_Bond]

A fair amount of protein yogurts are on the market now, probably better than all that liquid milk.

 

[Hans]

How do you not get constipated from all your milk? Seems like you drink an insane amount of milk to reach your protein needs.

I vary between 2-4L of milk as I up and down my meat intake based on craving. I only got larger stool from full fat milk, but never constipated. I currently drink skim and never had an issue with constipation from milk.

 

[Rafael Lao Wai]

A fair amount of protein yogurts are on the market now, probably better than all that liquid milk.

Yeah, it's easier to get protein from yoghurt, but milk has more nutrients, especially b- vitamins.

 

[Stilgar]

Change is usually dictated by suffering.
You haven't suffered enough yet from endotoxemia / candida / SIBO.
When your brain will feel like cotton candy, your legs that heavy that you can't get out of bed, your appetite so small that you could fast for a weak, the nausea so bad that a hangover feels like a breeze, you will understand what endotoxemia is.

Until then, you can only talk from studies you've read and how it's not a big deal.

So true.

 

[skittles]

Does anyone else get circulation issues at night during periods of starch centric eating? I find my arms and hands have have a high probability of going numb in my sleep, but it only ever happens when I'm eating a lot of starch. Admittedly I haven't gone through the rigmarole of experimenting with each different starch source in isolation. I'm sure I can recall having the same issues no matter what types of starches I was eating. But, I dunno..

The whole concept surrounding starch is so frustrating to me. I'd love to eat a primarily starch based diet, I love the /idea/ of it. I love rice and pasta and legumes and potatoes, they're satisfying and they're the base for like all delicious meals. There's a big part of me, frankly, that would like to be able to give up meat completely and get my protein from legumes...
But it just doesn't work for me. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

I have tried, countless times, and I always feel infinitely better eating a meat-and-dairy centric diet, fruit/honey/sugar to satiety, and very little starch. I get much better energy levels eating like that, I feel less bloated, less constant hunger, and I don't have dumb and annoying circulation issues.

 

[Ben.]

Does anyone else get circulation issues at night during periods of starch centric eating? I find my arms and hands have have a high probability of going numb in my sleep, but it only ever happens when I'm eating a lot of starch. Admittedly I haven't gone through the rigmarole of experimenting with each different starch source in isolation. I'm sure I can recall having the same issues no matter what types of starches I was eating. But, I dunno..

The whole concept surrounding starch is so frustrating to me. I'd love to eat a primarily starch based diet, I love the /idea/ of it. I love rice and pasta and legumes and potatoes, they're satisfying and they're the base for like all delicious meals. There's a big part of me, frankly, that would like to be able to give up meat completely and get my protein from legumes...
But it just doesn't work for me. I wish it did, but it doesn't.

I have tried, countless times, and I always feel infinitely better eating a meat-and-dairy centric diet, fruit/honey/sugar to satiety, and very little starch. I get much better energy levels eating like that, I feel less bloated, less constant hunger, and I don't have dumb and annoying circulation issues.

I think that might need experimentation in terms of changing the gut biome. People who couldn't consume milk, could after anitibiotic treatment or niacian+prebiotic experimentation or after cascara treatment or after a "milk regime" or or or.... etc.

Perhaps if one can make milk tolerable it might aswell work to gain tolerance towards starch/legumes. Not peaty at all but hey, nothing is set in stone. Have you tried adding more saturated fats with your starches? Maybe look up the croissant diet, sounded interesting.... and delicious ...

Have you noticed differences in starches when going for organic instead of conventional? Do you use refined or whole grain? If whole grain are you soaking/sprouting/fermenting it?

I wish i could consume more milk products tbh. Guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

 

[skittles]

I think that might need experimentation in terms of changing the gut biome. People who couldn't consume milk, could after anitibiotic treatment or niacian+prebiotic experimentation or after cascara treatment or after a "milk regime" or or or.... etc.

Perhaps if one can make milk tolerable it might aswell work to gain tolerance towards starch/legumes. Not peaty at all but hey, nothing is set in stone. Have you tried adding more saturated fats with your starches? Maybe look up the croissant diet, sounded interesting.... and delicious ...

Have you noticed differences in starches when going for organic instead of conventional? Do you use refined or whole grain? If whole grain are you soaking/sprouting/fermenting it?

I wish i could consume more milk products tbh. Guess the grass is always greener on the other side.

I've tried em every which way lol. And I've been trying to make it work for years. Refined grains, lentils and potatoes are the only things that don't seem to cause any intestinal distress. But even they leave me with water retention, lethargy, and recurring circulatory issues. No reason for me to avoid them like the plague or anything, I just wish I could get away with eating a dirt-cheap animal-sparing starch-centric diet. Just not in the cards for me, I guess. I think I feel best on like a paleo diet with a bit less fat and a bit more fruit and dairy.

 

[reality]

I've tried em every which way lol. And I've been trying to make it work for years. Refined grains, lentils and potatoes are the only things that don't seem to cause any intestinal distress. But even they leave me with water retention, lethargy, and recurring circulatory issues. No reason for me to avoid them like the plague or anything, I just wish I could get away with eating a dirt-cheap animal-sparing starch-centric diet. Just not in the cards for me, I guess. I think I feel best on like a paleo diet with a bit less fat and a bit more fruit and dairy.

Have you tried high dose thiamine with your carbs? Your issues sound related to a possible b1 deficiency...

Vitamin B1 (Thiamine) Deficiency: The "Great Imitator" Of Other Illnesses

"In this video, Dr. Berg talks about vitamin B deficiency. Transketolase is the enzyme for vitamin B deficiency test. Enzymes are the things that do the work in the body and B1 is involved in 5 different enzymes. Vitamin B1 deficiency is called Beri Beri and known as a great mimicker of disease...

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