A Possible Reconsideration of Grains in Context

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I will preface my comments saying that keeping grains to a low definitely makes me feel better overall--less endotoxin symptoms, lessened weight gain, and lowered appetite. I would also like to state that a lot of this will be speculation, and I will be using anecdotal evidence; so, keep that in mind.

I would like to point out that minimal grains combined with large amounts of sugar might be beneficial for some coming off a low-carb of very low-carb diet. When I first reintroduced carbohydrates into my diet after being low-carb, I tried a low-fat vegan diet hoping it would give me more energy. I failed terribly and it only lasted a week, on top of that it left me with worse constipation, stomach cramps, depression, and fatigue. This is when I found Matt Stone's work, I was extremely skeptical at first, but I was intrigued and though, "Well, I've tried everything I can think of... Why not?" So, and mind you this was late at night when I was reading his work, I decided to just completely pig out on the cupcakes my father had just gotten from the foodbank. Why? Well, nobody was awake, so I didn't have anybody scrutinizing my decision, and my body was in such dire need of sugar that I basically cried when I ate them. Sugar. For the first time in over a year. I knew they were littered with PUFAs, grains, sugar, and other ingredients I considered garbage at the time. I proceeded, though, and good thing I did! Well, to my family's astonishment and disapproval, I told them I would begin embarking on carbohydrates again, but in forms many would consider junk (sugar, turnovers, donuts, pie, cake, any sort of pastry), and so I did. They were worried, "Oh, you worked so hard to lose weight," and, "Dude, you're just gonna gain the weight back," and other variations of these statements. Well, I followed through with my statements and began to eat all kinds of sweets and junk-food sweets--utter bliss!

I'll make a side note that I also was drinking less fluids and eating a lot of salt (though, I reintroduced coffee after a few weeks of RRARF, mostly in the form of buttered toast with salt and sugar, and buttered potatoes.

Anyway, I was having a lot of insomnia problems with my low-carb diet, waking up in the middle of the night feeling like my heart was about to pop right out of my chest, despite my "kickass, grok inspired, low-carb paleo diet". Well, my family had been going to a lot of foodbanks around this time--the sweets they have are actually quite delicious--they give out a lot of bread. So what did I do? I ate copious amounts of buttered toast with salt and sugar, I mean 10 pieces at a time (sometimes 15!). Well, this surely had the effect of quelling my anxiety and stress hormones, additionally it warmed me up (the first time I had been warm for about 4 months!). As I continued to do this, I did gain weight indeed, and I honestly told myself, "**** IT, I've dealt with this crap long enough, and I will stick with this program because it makes me feel 'right'." This feeling of "right" was a feeling of warmth, calmness, general well-being, fullness, and energy (I believe this is what we should be achieving on a Peat diet).

So as time went on, I happily went to the foodbanks every weekend, and continually pigged out on apple turnovers, muffins, cupcakes, cookies, cake, pumpkin pie, cherry pie, donuts. I could easily down 4-6 large apple turnovers (holy ***t, what's the calorie and PUFA count of that?). I noticed I was eating a lot of grains, so naturally, I praised them; however, I didn't notice at the time, these items were also very high in sugar, if not higher. Over time, I gradually lost the weight I had gained still eating 3000+ calories a day, and I basically praised Matt Stone like someone would a deity. My libido was very high, I gained muscle I never had before, I looked pink and healthy, I lost the dark sunken circles and wrinkles under my eyes, hell, I didn't even have to concentrate that hard on my schooling and still received good grades (A's and B's) in my Chemistry, Biopsychology, English, and Music Theory classes. I felt alive!

This, I guess, is where my speculation comes in and says that in the right context, sweet/pastries (made with saturated fat) can really help somebody that cannot handle many liquids/fruits (as I couldn't) and needs a lot of sugar to help their thyroid heal. Eventually, I would recommend switching to more fruits and liquids once the thyroid has healed.

So my story seems paradoxical with what many Peat members seem to believe, high calories and starches, yet losing weight, not a lot of mineral/vitamin consumption. I would like some thoughts on this belief of starches with lots of sugar for some who are underweight and eating low-carb.
 

Blossom

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I found Peat through Matt Stone and I found Matt through Paleo for Women. I respect Matt's work and have read most of his books. I feel his work is more applicable to healthy people who have tanked their metabolism by dieting. I did a modified refeed myself but I really am gluten intolerant and he kind of makes fun of that which turned me off. I eat starches some and do think they can be ok depending on the person's issues. I was just too sick in the beginning and needed a little more than his approach dealt with. The 20 year old me could have greatly benefited from his work but he still needs to respect those with gluten issues such and celiac disease.
 

CentralCoastIan

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I would agree with you on that point. Like I said, in context, for somebody that has a gluten intolerance, obviously they can't really eat grains.
 

narouz

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Not intended as a considered response to the original post,
but in an interview (sorry...not sure which one,
but I think it may've been one of the KAWAII/Royals),
when asked if wheat (pretty sure) was ever a good food,
Peat said that it was only good
when someone was starving,
when they needed calories.
 

Mittir

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Feb 20, 2013
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Blossom said:
I found Peat through Matt Stone and I found Matt through Paleo for Women. I respect Matt's work and have read most of his books. I feel his work is more applicable to healthy people who have tanked their metabolism by dieting. I did a modified refeed myself but I really am gluten intolerant and he kind of makes fun of that which turned me off. I eat starches some and do think they can be ok depending on the person's issues. I was just too sick in the beginning and needed a little more than his approach dealt with. The 20 year old me could have greatly benefited from his work but he still needs to respect those with gluten issues such and celiac disease.

I think he is terribly misinformed and knows very little about RP's
ideas. Though, most of his ideas are borrowed from RP except for
his push for starch. Starch increases temperature by increasing cortisol
and this feels good to most hypothyroid people. But it will cause
lots of health issues in a short period of time. Most of his follower
seem to think he figured out that high fluid consumption is
problem for hypothyroid people. But, this directly comes from
RP's article on water. Carbohydrate intake increases Thyroid hormone,
whether carbohydrate is in sugar or starch form. This is one of the
reason people are able to sustain on junk foods for some period of time.
RP explained how excess estrogen plays a role in celiac disease.
Females have much higher rate of gluten intolerance due to estrogen.
 

SQu

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Messages
1,288
I'm just very envious it worked so well for you. I too put on weight rrarfing and got a few smallish health benefits and a few big new problems like worse insomnia, aching and energy. Weight gain still with me :| and lots of it too .You may have been in stronger condition to start with. And people respond so differently. Lucky you!
 

CentralCoastIan

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Mittir said:
Starch increases temperature by increasing cortisol
and this feels good to most hypothyroid people. But it will cause
lots of health issues in a short period of time.

I'm not sure I can believe this sentiment just yet, because I lost weight (slim stomach), gained muscle, slept 8-9 hours a night, felt very relaxed and calm yet had energy, and had all the positive benefits of a healthy thyroid. I mean, these effects seem to be contrary to the effects of excess cortisol.

I figure maybe from the low-carbing I had done, I had no intestinal bacteria to create any sort of endotoxin? I'm not exactly sure why I didn't have any negative effects yet.
 

CentralCoastIan

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narouz said:
Not intended as a considered response to the original post,
but in an interview (sorry...not sure which one,
but I think it may've been one of the KAWAII/Royals),
when asked if wheat (pretty sure) was ever a good food,
Peat said that it was only good
when someone was starving,
when they needed calories.

I mentioned in my OP, grains would be optimal for somebody who was starving or underfed (even though I wasn't underfed when I was having my worst symptoms).
 

CentralCoastIan

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sueq said:
I'm just very envious it worked so well for you. I too put on weight rrarfing and got a few smallish health benefits and a few big new problems like worse insomnia, aching and energy. Weight gain still with me :| and lots of it too .You may have been in stronger condition to start with. And people respond so differently. Lucky you!

I'm honestly not sure why I lost the weight. I was in really bad condition, severe cortisol belly (which I lost), Reynauds, severely underweight (160lbs at 6'2"), suicidal thoughts, muscle loss, sunken eyes, severe constipation (I didn't have a BM for 3 weeks one time), severe panic attacks all the time, and all the other bad symptoms of a hypo person. It may be that because I'm only 19, but I'm not sure.
 

Blossom

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His worked convinced me to stop paleo after a quack doctor had advised me to eat that way. He may not be right about everything but he does help people stop extreme dieting which is valuable in itself imo. I'm sure being 19 years old had a lot to do with your positive experience.
 

CentralCoastIan

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Blossom said:
His worked convinced me to stop paleo after a quack doctor had advised me to eat that way. He may not be right about everything but he does help people stop extreme dieting which is valuable in itself imo. I'm sure being 19 years old had a lot to do with your positive experience.

Well, I don't give Stone god-status anymore after looking at more of Peat's work, but I don't look at Peat as a god either, I tend to think faulty science has screwed things up which shouldn't allow me to praise somebody for finding the truth when that path was easily achievable all along. However, I do agree with Stone that any extreme diet is really ******* bad for you.
 

4peatssake

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CentralCoastIan said:
I tend to think faulty science has screwed things up which shouldn't allow me to praise somebody for finding the truth when that path was easily achievable all along.
I'd say it is pretty clear that the path was not "easily achievable all along."
It is not as simple as "faulty science."

Ray Peat said:
In 1900, Moses Gomberg demonstrated the synthesis of a stable free radical (triphenylmethyl), but for years many chemists believed free radicals couldn’t exist. A student of Gomberg’s, William F. Koch, came to believe that cellular respiration involved free radicals, and experimented with the metabolic effects of many organic molecules, quinones of several kinds, that can form free radicals, looking for the most useful ones.

For more than 50 years the U.S. Government and the main medical instititutions actively fought the idea that a free radical or quinone could serve as a biological catalyst to correct a wide variety of health problems.

A free radical has an unpaired electron. In 1944 Yevgeniy Zavoisky devised a way to measure the behavior of unpaired electrons in crystals, but it was many years before it was recognized that they are essential to cellular respiration. Alex Comfort demonstrated them in living tissue in 1959.

By the time coenzyme Q10, ubiquinone, was officially discovered, Koch had moved to Brazil to continue his work with the biological effects of the quinones, including the anthraquinone compound of brazilwood, which is used as a dye. He also used a naphthoquine, lapachon Although vitamin K was identified as a quinone (naphthoquinone) not long after coQ10 was found to be a ubiquitous component of the mitochondrial respiratory system, it wasn’t immediately recognized as another participant in that system, interacting with coQ10.

Although Koch was unable to publish in any English language medical journal after 1914, his work was widely known. In the 1930s, Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, following Koch’s ideas about electrons in cells, interacting with free radicals, began working on the links between electronic energy and cellular movement. Since free (or relatively free) electrons absorb light, Szent-Gyorgyi worked with many colorful substances. When he came to the US in 1947, and wanted to expand his research, a team of professors from Harvard investigated, and told the government funding agency that his work didn’t deserve support. For the rest of his life, he worked on related ideas, expanding ideas that Koch had first developed.

...Koch’s understanding of the oxidative apparatus of life, as a matter of electron balances, involved the idea that molecules with a low ionization potential, making them good electron donors, amines specifically, interfered with respiration, while quinones, with a high affinity for electrons, making them electron acceptors, activated respiration. The toxic effects of tryptophan derivatives, indoles, and other amines related to the behavior of their electrons. (Serotonin wasn’t known at the time Koch was doing his basic research.) Koch believed that similar electronic functions were responsible for the effects of viruses.

Both chemical and physical interactions of substances cause electrons to shift in each substance, according to its composition. The shift of electrons accounts for the ability of adsorbed molecules or ions to form multiple layers on a surface, and changes in the electrons of a complex biological molecule affect the shape and function not only of that molecule, but of the molecules associated with it. Interactions of the large molecules of cells, and their adsorbed substances, tend toward stable arrangements, or phases. The type of energy production, and the nature of the regulatory molecules that are present, influence the stability of the various states of an organism’s cells. (For more information on cooperative adsorption, see http://www.gilbertling.org.)

Koch and Szent-Gyorgyi were applying to biology and medicine concepts that were simultaneously being developed in metallurgy, electrochemistry, colloid and surface science, and electronics. They were in the scientific mainstream, and it was the medical-pharmaceutical industry that moved away from this kind of exploration of the interactions of substances, electrons, and organisms.
Cascara, energy, cancer and the FDA's laxative abuse

Ray Peat said:
More than 50 years have been wasted in one of the most important and fundamental branches of science and medicine, for reasons that are highly ideological and political. Rather than studying the regeneration of organs and tissues, and recognizing its obvious importance in healing as well as in understanding the nature of life, much of the last century was devoted to the defamation of the researchers who were making real process in the field. Despite many demonstrations that regeneration can occur in adult mammals, students were taught that it happens only in lower vertebrates. I think it's important to look closely at the ideology responsible for this great loss.

Warburg and Szent-Gyorgyi, in thinking about cancer, emphasized that growth is the primordial function of all cells, and that the differentiated functions of complex organisms involve restraints of that primitive function, imposed by a system that has developed through time.

Seen with this orientation, regeneration is the spontaneous result of the disappearance of restraint. The reproduction of a whole plant from a twig, or clone, was a process known for thousands of years. Any part of the plant contains the information needed for making a whole plant. More than thirty years ago, cells from a tumor were added to the cells of a normal embryo, and the animal that matured from the embryo-tumor mix was normal, and had traits of both lineages, showing that the tumor cells had retained the genetic information of a complete healthy organism, and just needed a different environment in which to realize their full potential.

One of the currents of medical thinking, from classical times through Paracelsus to homeopathy and naturopathy, has been a confidence in the capacity of the organism to heal itself. But "modern" medicine has arrogated to itself the "healing power," with terrible results, mitigated only by their occasional reluctant acceptance of fragments of sane organismic thinking, such as recognizing the importance of nutrition, or of keeping sewage out of the drinking water. Research into methods to support the organism's natural restorative powers has been ridiculed and suppressed.

We are immersed in the propaganda of modern medicine, and part of that propaganda involves the confabulation of a history of science that supports their practice and their ideology. The real history of science won't be found in science textbooks.

"I intend to show you how neo-Darwinism has been invalidated within science itself, as an explanation of how life on earth has evolved and is evolving. It is nevertheless still perpetrated by the academic establishment, if only because it serves so well to promote genetic engineering, a technology that has the potential to destroy all life on earth. Furthermore, neo-Darwinism reinforces a worldview that undermines all moral values and prevents us from the necessary shift to holistic, ecological sciences that can truly regenerate the earth and revitalize the human spirit." Mae-Wan Ho http://www.i-sis.org.uk/paris.php

Mainstream medical treatments are based on some fundamentally absurd scientific ideas. The advent of experimental animal cloning and the industrialization of genetic engineering have undercut the most important biological doctrines of the 20th century, but the processes of critical thinking haven't made headway against most of the traditional medical stereotypes. Cloning shows that all cells are potential "stem cells," but this fact co-exists with the Hayflick doctrine, that says, essentially, that no cell is a stem cell.

The ideology of culturally significant "intellectuals"--scientists, professors, neurobiologists, linguists, philosophers, oncologists, geneticists--in the US is deeply influenced by the dualism and mechanistic materialism of Rene DesCartes...

The scientists who wanted their work to be acceptable to those in power found ways to work with the Cartesian mechanical view of the world, building on the Deists' compromise, which had succeeded in removing the supernatural from nature. As the fossil evidence of evolution became inescapable, around the time of Charles Darwin's work, those who wanted to bring evolution into the mainstream of culture found that the Catastrophism of the creationists could be adapted to their purposes, with only slight modification.
Adaptive substance, creative regeneration: Mainstream science, repression, and creativity

7. What impact would you like to see your research make on society? Reaching the largest amount of people? or a certain type of person? Or are you completely detached from the outcome?

I’d like to see it lead to the disestablishment of medicine. The same general outcomes Ivan Illich worked for. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDr71LHO0Jo)
Vision and Acceptance: Ray Peat Interviews Revisited
 

Blossom

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Joined
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Messages
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@ mittir- thanks for pointing out the link between estrogen and gluten intolerance, it makes perfect sense to me now.
@4peatssake- thanks for posting all that you did. I had read all of that before but it is inspirational to reread it. I too would love to see the disestablishment of medicine myself because I have lived it in the trenches so to speak for nearly 20 years and it is appalling to say the least. It will probably take longer than my lifetime but you have to start somewhere.
 

SAFarmer

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Messages
182
Blossom said:
@ mittir- thanks for pointing out the link between estrogen and gluten intolerance, it makes perfect sense to me now.
@4peatssake- thanks for posting all that you did. I had read all of that before but it is inspirational to reread it. I too would love to see the disestablishment of medicine myself because I have lived it in the trenches so to speak for nearly 20 years and it is appalling to say the least. It will probably take longer than my lifetime but you have to start somewhere.

TY from me too @4peatssake . I have read it before also, but rereading things always give me more insights and better understanding. I found the reference to Guenter Albrecht-Buehler and his work on cell environment and communication very interesting, which led me to the work of http://sondrabarrett.com/ and that led me to remember a very fascinating video about single cell (bacteria) communication through Quorum Sensing which fits very nicely with the ideas of Ray Peat and cell environment. A must watch video if you have the time (make the time ! ) http://www.ted.com/talks/bonnie_bassler ... icate.html
 

SQu

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Joined
Jan 3, 2014
Messages
1,288
4peatsake thanks for the wonderful post. Love reading on that subject!
SAFarmer this is off topic and I'm not sure of the protocol but I think the SA in your name is because you're South African? If so would you mind sharing info on thyroid docs / brands in SA? Also progesterone and maybe K2? But mainly thyroid. If that's ok could I pm / start thread? Thank you so much.
 

SAFarmer

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Joined
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Messages
182
sueq said:
SAFarmer this is off topic and I'm not sure of the protocol but I think the SA in your name is because you're South African? If so would you mind sharing info on thyroid docs / brands in SA? Also progesterone and maybe K2? But mainly thyroid. If that's ok could I pm / start thread? Thank you so much.

I assume you're SA too ? You can PM me.
 

CentralCoastIan

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Thread starter
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4peatssake said:
CentralCoastIan said:
I tend to think faulty science has screwed things up which shouldn't allow me to praise somebody for finding the truth when that path was easily achievable all along.
I'd say it is pretty clear that the path was not "easily achievable all along."
It is not as simple as "faulty science."

Ray Peat said:
In 1900, Moses Gomberg demonstrated the synthesis of a stable free radical (triphenylmethyl), but for years many chemists believed free radicals couldn’t exist. A student of Gomberg’s, William F. Koch, came to believe that cellular respiration involved free radicals, and experimented with the metabolic effects of many organic molecules, quinones of several kinds, that can form free radicals, looking for the most useful ones.

For more than 50 years the U.S. Government and the main medical instititutions actively fought the idea that a free radical or quinone could serve as a biological catalyst to correct a wide variety of health problems.

A free radical has an unpaired electron. In 1944 Yevgeniy Zavoisky devised a way to measure the behavior of unpaired electrons in crystals, but it was many years before it was recognized that they are essential to cellular respiration. Alex Comfort demonstrated them in living tissue in 1959.

By the time coenzyme Q10, ubiquinone, was officially discovered, Koch had moved to Brazil to continue his work with the biological effects of the quinones, including the anthraquinone compound of brazilwood, which is used as a dye. He also used a naphthoquine, lapachon Although vitamin K was identified as a quinone (naphthoquinone) not long after coQ10 was found to be a ubiquitous component of the mitochondrial respiratory system, it wasn’t immediately recognized as another participant in that system, interacting with coQ10.

Although Koch was unable to publish in any English language medical journal after 1914, his work was widely known. In the 1930s, Albert Szent-Gyorgyi, following Koch’s ideas about electrons in cells, interacting with free radicals, began working on the links between electronic energy and cellular movement. Since free (or relatively free) electrons absorb light, Szent-Gyorgyi worked with many colorful substances. When he came to the US in 1947, and wanted to expand his research, a team of professors from Harvard investigated, and told the government funding agency that his work didn’t deserve support. For the rest of his life, he worked on related ideas, expanding ideas that Koch had first developed.

...Koch’s understanding of the oxidative apparatus of life, as a matter of electron balances, involved the idea that molecules with a low ionization potential, making them good electron donors, amines specifically, interfered with respiration, while quinones, with a high affinity for electrons, making them electron acceptors, activated respiration. The toxic effects of tryptophan derivatives, indoles, and other amines related to the behavior of their electrons. (Serotonin wasn’t known at the time Koch was doing his basic research.) Koch believed that similar electronic functions were responsible for the effects of viruses.

Both chemical and physical interactions of substances cause electrons to shift in each substance, according to its composition. The shift of electrons accounts for the ability of adsorbed molecules or ions to form multiple layers on a surface, and changes in the electrons of a complex biological molecule affect the shape and function not only of that molecule, but of the molecules associated with it. Interactions of the large molecules of cells, and their adsorbed substances, tend toward stable arrangements, or phases. The type of energy production, and the nature of the regulatory molecules that are present, influence the stability of the various states of an organism’s cells. (For more information on cooperative adsorption, see http://www.gilbertling.org.)

Koch and Szent-Gyorgyi were applying to biology and medicine concepts that were simultaneously being developed in metallurgy, electrochemistry, colloid and surface science, and electronics. They were in the scientific mainstream, and it was the medical-pharmaceutical industry that moved away from this kind of exploration of the interactions of substances, electrons, and organisms.
Cascara, energy, cancer and the FDA's laxative abuse

Ray Peat said:
More than 50 years have been wasted in one of the most important and fundamental branches of science and medicine, for reasons that are highly ideological and political. Rather than studying the regeneration of organs and tissues, and recognizing its obvious importance in healing as well as in understanding the nature of life, much of the last century was devoted to the defamation of the researchers who were making real process in the field. Despite many demonstrations that regeneration can occur in adult mammals, students were taught that it happens only in lower vertebrates. I think it's important to look closely at the ideology responsible for this great loss.

Warburg and Szent-Gyorgyi, in thinking about cancer, emphasized that growth is the primordial function of all cells, and that the differentiated functions of complex organisms involve restraints of that primitive function, imposed by a system that has developed through time.

Seen with this orientation, regeneration is the spontaneous result of the disappearance of restraint. The reproduction of a whole plant from a twig, or clone, was a process known for thousands of years. Any part of the plant contains the information needed for making a whole plant. More than thirty years ago, cells from a tumor were added to the cells of a normal embryo, and the animal that matured from the embryo-tumor mix was normal, and had traits of both lineages, showing that the tumor cells had retained the genetic information of a complete healthy organism, and just needed a different environment in which to realize their full potential.

One of the currents of medical thinking, from classical times through Paracelsus to homeopathy and naturopathy, has been a confidence in the capacity of the organism to heal itself. But "modern" medicine has arrogated to itself the "healing power," with terrible results, mitigated only by their occasional reluctant acceptance of fragments of sane organismic thinking, such as recognizing the importance of nutrition, or of keeping sewage out of the drinking water. Research into methods to support the organism's natural restorative powers has been ridiculed and suppressed.

We are immersed in the propaganda of modern medicine, and part of that propaganda involves the confabulation of a history of science that supports their practice and their ideology. The real history of science won't be found in science textbooks.

"I intend to show you how neo-Darwinism has been invalidated within science itself, as an explanation of how life on earth has evolved and is evolving. It is nevertheless still perpetrated by the academic establishment, if only because it serves so well to promote genetic engineering, a technology that has the potential to destroy all life on earth. Furthermore, neo-Darwinism reinforces a worldview that undermines all moral values and prevents us from the necessary shift to holistic, ecological sciences that can truly regenerate the earth and revitalize the human spirit." Mae-Wan Ho http://www.i-sis.org.uk/paris.php

Mainstream medical treatments are based on some fundamentally absurd scientific ideas. The advent of experimental animal cloning and the industrialization of genetic engineering have undercut the most important biological doctrines of the 20th century, but the processes of critical thinking haven't made headway against most of the traditional medical stereotypes. Cloning shows that all cells are potential "stem cells," but this fact co-exists with the Hayflick doctrine, that says, essentially, that no cell is a stem cell.

The ideology of culturally significant "intellectuals"--scientists, professors, neurobiologists, linguists, philosophers, oncologists, geneticists--in the US is deeply influenced by the dualism and mechanistic materialism of Rene DesCartes...

The scientists who wanted their work to be acceptable to those in power found ways to work with the Cartesian mechanical view of the world, building on the Deists' compromise, which had succeeded in removing the supernatural from nature. As the fossil evidence of evolution became inescapable, around the time of Charles Darwin's work, those who wanted to bring evolution into the mainstream of culture found that the Catastrophism of the creationists could be adapted to their purposes, with only slight modification.
Adaptive substance, creative regeneration: Mainstream science, repression, and creativity

7. What impact would you like to see your research make on society? Reaching the largest amount of people? or a certain type of person? Or are you completely detached from the outcome?

I’d like to see it lead to the disestablishment of medicine. The same general outcomes Ivan Illich worked for. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lDr71LHO0Jo)
Vision and Acceptance: Ray Peat Interviews Revisited

Maybe easily achieved path would be incorrect; however, when these people let bias and agendas get in the way of science, it ceases to be science, and is instead wrongful manipulation of data to to push an agenda. Science is about open-mindedness, and when people don't let bias or agendas get in the way, the truth is more easily found.
 
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