Energin - Custom, Liquid Dietary Supplement With B Vitamins

Discussion in 'IdeaLabs' started by haidut, May 14, 2014.

  1. haidut

    haidut Member

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    Hi all,

    After several weeks of experimentation, we are finally ready to start offering the B complex supplement I mentioned in my previous threads. We are calling it Energin. It is again dual-action - i.e. can be taken both orally and/or topically. For the topical method I used a slightly modified ethanol solution, so basically the supplement is a mix of high purity B vitamins in 20% ethanol. Other than the B vitamins (all of them with greater than 99.9% purity) and the diluted ethanol, there is nothing else in the bottle. Here are some basic facts about the supplement.

    Bottle size - 2oz (~60g)
    Servings per container - 30
    Serving size - 2ml (~2g)

    Each serving contains:
    **********************************************
    Thiamine HCL (Vitamin B1): 50 mg
    Riboflavin-5-Phosphate (Vitamin B2): 20 mg
    Niacinamide (Vitamin B3): 100 mg
    Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (Vitamin B6): 6 mg
    Biotin 1 mg
    **********************************************
    Based on a study "j." posted about a month ago, the topical absorption is over 90% for the vitamins above. The vitamins above were chosen since he has written about them in many of his articles. For the people wondering why Energin does not contain folic acid, vitamin B5, or B12, please see this discussion:
    DNA Methylation, Aging, And Cancer
    If you have any questions, feel free to ask me here or send me a PM.
    Thanks again for your patience.
     
  2. 4peatssake

    4peatssake Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Oh happy day!

    :carrot2 :carrot2 :carrot2
     
  3. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    FYI - there is another one in the works, based on some research I have been doing with amino acids and caffeine.
     
  4. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hi Haidut,

    What do you think of switching from thiamine HCL to thiamine pyrophosphate ( later may be...)?
    The coenzymated vitamins are really the best options for those with impair liver function ( and who here has a "normal" liver function?)
    If you could do that (later, may be? :D ), it would be great!
    Adding biotin to the mix is an excellent idea, too.
    Anyway, keep up the good work.
     
  5. aguilaroja

    aguilaroja Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I would be interested to know what is know about topical absorption of pyrophosphate/coenzymated vitamin forms. I tawdrily admit I have not tried to research the topic recently, and am wondering if others have info on the cuff.

    I don't know enough compelling work about biotin in any direction to advocate.

    ---
    A very small animal study, just suggestive about biotin transit in metabolism:

    Nutrition. 2013 Oct;29(10):1266-70. doi: 10.1016/j.nut.2013.04.011.
    Consumption of a low-carbohydrate and high-fat diet (the ketogenic diet) exaggerates biotin deficiency in mice.
    Yuasa M1, Matsui T, Ando S, Ishii Y, Sawamura H, Ebara S, Watanabe T.

    Biotin is a water-soluble vitamin that acts as a cofactor for several carboxylases. The ketogenic diet, a low-carbohydrate, high-fat diet, is used to treat drug-resistant epilepsy and promote weight loss...special infant formulas used in Japan... do not contain sufficient amounts of biotin, biotin deficiency can develop in infants.... Therefore, the aim of this study was to evaluate the effects of the ketogenic diet on biotin status in mice.
    METHODS:

    Male mice (N = 32) were divided into the following groups: control diet group, biotin-deficient (BD) diet group, ketogenic control diet group, and ketogenic biotin-deficient (KBD) diet group. Eight mice were used in each group.
    RESULTS:

    At 9 wk, the typical symptoms of biotin deficiency such as hair loss and dermatitis had only developed in the KBD diet group. The total protein expression level of biotin-dependent carboxylases and the total tissue biotin content were significantly decreased in the KBD and BD diet groups. However, these changes were more severe in the KBD diet group.
    CONCLUSION:

    These findings demonstrated that the ketogenic diet increases biotin bioavailability and consumption, and hence, promotes energy production by gluconeogenesis and branched-chain amino acid metabolism, which results in exaggerated biotin deficiency in biotin-deficient mice. Therefore, biotin supplementation is important for mice that consume the ketogenic diet. It is suggested that individuals that consume the ketogenic diet have an increased biotin requirement.
     
  6. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Peat wrote in several of his articles that biotin deficiency triggers glycolysis and extra biotin restrains it.

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/lactate.shtml

    "...Vitamins D, K, B6 and biotin are also closely involved with carbon dioxide metabolism. Biotin deficiency can cause aerobic glycolysis with increased fat synthesis (Marshall, et al., 1976)."

    Also, he wrote about either Warburg or Szent-Györgyi believing that cancer was caused by biotin deficiency (likely connected to it stimulating glycolysis). Peat did not disagree with that statement, so I am assuming he at least somewhat approves of biotin supplementation.

    Finally, all of the B vitamins are absorbable topically. In fact, with ethanol solution they have better absorption than oral but the oral route is better in the sense that you can ingest a much larger dose.
     
  7. jyb

    jyb Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I sort of assume he doesn't explicitely advocate supplementing things like biotin as in theory it could be produced and absorbed in the gut with little reliance on food sources.
     
  8. aguilaroja

    aguilaroja Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks for jogging my addled brain cells. In my perusing, there's less literature on biotin than some of the other B's–I have been pleading ignorance. I think Warburg knew about biotin through his colleague Dean Burk (biotin's co-discoverer, among other ways, though I do not know how the two got along.

    (as an aside, I did not know of Burk's concern about fluoridation:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dean_Burk "After retiring from the NCI in 1974, Dean Burk remained active. He devoted himself to his opposition to water fluoridation.")

    My Warburg archives are not scanned or digitized so I cannot readily search. Here's one recent opining, which I have only skimmed:

    http://pharmaceuticalintelligence.com/2 ... tury-view/

    "The M2 PK bottleneck between glycolysis and the citric acid cycle is a typical feature of tumor cell glycolysis.

    Above the bottleneck, the massive entry of glucose accumulates PEP, which converts to OAA via mitochondria PEP carboxykinase, an enzyme requiring biotine-CO2-GDP. This source of OAA is abnormal, since Pcarb, another biotin-requiring enzyme, should have provided OAA. Tumors may indeed contain “morule inclusions” of biotin-enzyme suggesting an inhibition of Pcarb, presumably a consequence of the maintained citrate synthase activity, and decrease of ketone bodies that normally stimulate Pcarb."
     
  9. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    @haidut,

    How many drops in 1 ml?
    As I like to take very small amount of vitamins at a time, it would be interesting to know it.
    You did not respond to my question, above, about the B1..... :cry:
    Thanks.
     
  10. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Great idea, I will check with the supplier if they carry thiamine pyrophosphate. I was thinking of maybe using allithiamine, which is fat soluble and has almost 100% bioavailability but it just smells and tastes horribly, which won't fly well with topical or oral administration.
     
  11. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    One (1) ml is 20 drops using the built in dropper of the bottle. I know it's a lot of drops but I cannot find bottles that produce larger drops. If someone has a bottle at home with a separate dropper from another liquid supplement they have bought before then they can pour Energin into that bottle and use its dropper. I think the glass bottles with separate droppers measure something like 10 drops per 1 ml.
     
  12. jaa

    jaa Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hey haidut,

    Do you mind explaining the reasoning behind the various amounts of each vitamin you chose for this supplement? In particular, the thiamine dose, since it falls within that cancer cell proliferation range of 15-70% RDA you mention in one of your General Discussion threads.
     
  13. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    All of the water soluble vitamins have certain solubility in ethanol and water. So the dosages are as close to the maximum solubility for each vitamin as possible. For vitamin B6 we only dissolved what Ray considers a good dose (i.e. <10mg).
    Also, keep in mind that the old study "j." posted in another thread showed topical absorption close to 90% and it avoids the liver, so if you use this vitamin topically the plasma concentrations would be comparable to an oral dosage 15-20 times higher, which puts the thiamine way into the safe range.
     
  14. jaa

    jaa Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Thanks for that explanation haidut! I did not realize the topical absorption was much greater than orally consumed B vitamins. I really like you vit AEDK product and look forward to trying this energin one as well.
     
  15. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    You are welcome. Let me know how it goes with Energin. The only drawback that I see with it is that due to the riboflavin it will stain the skin at the place of application. But that disappears after a few washes.
     
  16. OP
    haidut

    haidut Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Hello everyone. My family and I will be out of town until June 11, so we won't be able to process and ship orders. Thus, I have "closed" the online store until June 11. If people are willing to place orders now but have them shipped on June 12, please let me know and I will leave the store open while we are out. Otherwise, I am looking forward to restarting the order processing in about 3 weeks. I will still try to post on the forum even while we are out, depending on availability of Internet connection. Thank you for your understanding!
     
  17. j.

    j. Guest

    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    Wilfrid, did you get bad effects taking the HCL form of B1?
     
  18. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    I got some jittery feelings as well as some loose stools when I took it.
    Those symptoms usually begins at a dosage as low as 10 mg ( I used the purebulk thiamine HCL powder.).
    Last year, a pharmacist's friend managed to get me some pure thiamine pyrophosphate powder from Sigma Aaldricht and I didn't get any bad effect at all, even at dosage up to 50mg.
    However, I'm running out of it and now I'm taking a product called Bio-B 100 from Biotics research, which is a very low dose coenzymated B supp that I can tolerate very well without any side effects and I combined it with liquid version of liquid coenzymated B1 (from Metabolics a UK vitamin supplier) and liquid coenzymated B6 from Epigenetics (also a UK company).
    So far so good but the Thiamine HCL through oral route is a no-no for me.
    Ray suggest me to dissolve the thiamine HCL in vodka and to use it on skin but I don't make this experience so far.
    May be in the future...
     
  19. j.

    j. Guest

    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    What are positive effects you felt from B1 supplementation?
     
  20. Wilfrid

    Wilfrid Member

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    Re: Energin - custom, liquid dietary supplement with B vitam

    One of the positive effect I got during the time I took the thiamine pyrophosphate was a subtle but net energy gain. After 2-3 days on it, I didn't feel the need to take my daily nap in the afternoon.
    It was like taking a few mcg of cynomel...my metabolism seemed to improve somewhat on it.
    The dose I used was 10 mg. I tried for few days a dose up to 50 mg but didn't feel any difference in term of well-being.
    Now, on the low dose, this effect almost vanished.
    The other net positive effect was that my appetite ramp up on it and my stress level went down.
    I can't objectively describe the " stress went down" thing but I felt less irritable and became more focused on any given task at work without the feeling of "urgency" that I usually got.
    And last thing, my digestion improved on it while it was clearly worse on the thiamine HCL.
     
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