Making An Oral B-Vitamin Supplement Of Several B's

Insomnia

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Hi,

After having a bad experience a couple of months ago I was thinking of making a supplement for personal use. I have no intentions of selling it commercially but I want to see what quality vitamins will do for the "oral" route. I have used haiduts Energin and I am very pleased with it, since it's a powerful supplement. I think the b3 at full dose does make me a bit sluggish but that's why I cut the dose and it works out fine.

I also experimented with folate and b12 and found that they are indeed not really suitable (at least for me they aren't). I could describe a dozen of symptoms but the period where I had one of my first scary attacks was so weird, that I cannot point my finger to 1 culprit. I think what happened was because of multiple factors. Simply said: alot of multivitamins aren't optimal if u ask me and I don't know how I used them for so long without trouble. I don't want to use something with capsules and fillers to avoid these 'unneccesary and potential toxins'.

Anyhow, back to what I was trying to say, I wanted to make a oral B supplement. I was wondering whether I could simply use double-distilled water and a lab/pharmaceutical-grade Vitamin C (I know most people would disagree on whether ascorbic acid is a Vitamin, but I need a preserver). I do not want to use alcohol as a preserver and that's why I don't use energin orally (even though it can be used orally). The profile of the B vitamins would look like this:

20 drops, one bottle should last 60 days:

Vitamin B1 (20-30mg)
Vtamin B2 (12mg)
Vitamin B3 (40-60mg, not sure on dose, but anything around 80-100mg doesn't work for me personally)
Vitamin B6 (4mg)
Vitamin B7 (350-600mcg)

I am doing this for one time only and want to see what the experiences/benefits could be from supplementing orally. Because my brother in law has access to labtests and pharmaceutical grade vits, I may be able to get alot of vitamins and stuff through him. I am looking for people who could help me out here since I simply cannot use all of the vitamins myself, so I could sell a couple @noprofit to simply get even with the costs. The batch I am thinking about should be good for approximately 20-30 bottles, I am still a student and currently am studying for being a teacher of physical education. I hope to be done in a couple of months after finishing my last test. This thread is purely to gather some info on how I can preserve this B-complex for "oral" usage (technically not a b-complex because it doesn't contain all the b's) and to see if there are a couple of candidates who can buy off a couple of bottles to split the costs. If I do violate any rules, my excuses and feel free to remove this thread.

Cheers!
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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Someone from this forum said b1 <50mg per day is cancer promoting.

I tried looking for it but couldn’t look for a quote. Do u perhaps have a link? Do u recall perhaps why vitamin b1 doses under 50mg might be cancer promoting?
 
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I didnt find the quote but i found the study confirming such statement.
https://febs.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1046/j.1432-1327.2001.02329.x

The effect of thiamine supplementation on tumour proliferation was demonstrated by in vivoexperiments in mice with the ascites tumour. Thiamine supplementation in doses between 12.5 and 250 times the recommended dietary allowance (RDA) for mice were administered starting on day four of tumour inoculation. We observed a high stimulatory effect on tumour growth of 164% compared to controls at a thiamine dose of 25 times the RDA. This growth stimulatory effect was predicted on the basis of correction of the pre‐existing level of thiamine deficiency (42%), as assayed by the cofactor/enzyme ratio. Interestingly, at very high overdoses of thiamine, ≈ 2500 times the RDA, thiamine supplementation had the opposite effect and caused 10% inhibition of tumour growth. This effect was heightened, resulting in a 36% decrease, when thiamine supplementation was administered from the 7th day prior to tumour inoculation. Our results show that thiamine supplementation sufficient to correct existing thiamine deficiency stimulates tumour proliferation as predicted by MCA. The tumour inhibitory effect at high doses of thiamine is unexplained and merits further study.
 

Amazoniac

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My brain is melting at this point, Zoelle cursed me and refuses to undo the voodoo spell.


Zeus has various threads on thiamine and cancro, some are from the cretaceous period, one of them quotes the above:
- Thiamine And Cancer


It must be clear for everyone that it's based on mice RDA, and they got it from the following:

[10] Handbook of Biological Data : William S. Spector : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive - pg. 196 (PDF: 238/632)

upload_2019-2-9_20-57-34.png

They use 20 mcg/kg, but it's more like 25 mcg/kg and it already changes the range from 0-2500x to 0-2000x [*] of the RDA, making them easier to achieve. The dietary recommendations have changed since then, so I'm not sure how trustable they is. But assuming that they're not too off, doses that weren't stimulating are relatively easy to get:

upload_2019-2-9_20-57-45.png

[*] 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200, 2000 times.

The current human RDA for thiamine is 1.2 mg/d.
The last three doses weren't stimulatory: 120, 240, 2400 mg; (as you can tell) with 120 mg being fine.​

It seems more reliable to base the comparison on RDAs for different animals instead of scaling using body proportions, but using it for practical purposes (which is what most people do), we get very modest doses: 0, 1, 3, 4, 6, 9, 14, 28, 285 mg/d for a 70 kg adult.

One point is that it was injected, perhaps you can get less undesirable effects of this kind by ingesting it. Getting it preformed is another point to consider in cancro for skipping a more gradual process, this must increase the rate of use by tissues and decrease the chances of feeding the tumor.
- Thiamine Biochemistry

What was discussed on the post below might apply to some of these vitamins:
- Niacinamide Or Just Plain Niacin?

It's interesting that the Gerson therapy was somewhat low in thiamine in relation to the other B-vitamins. I don't know if this was intentional, but it didn't seem so, it was probably just a consequence of liver not providing enough thiamine. People could've supplemented as it was required for niacin.
 
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Makrosky

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My brain is melting at this point, Zoelle cursed me and refuses to undo the voodoo spell.


Zeus has various threads on thiamine and cancro, some are from the cretaceous period, one of them quotes the above:
- Thiamine And Cancer


It must be clear for everyone that it's based on mice RDA, and they got it from the following:

[10] Handbook of Biological Data : William S. Spector : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive - pg. 196 (PDF: 238/632)


They use 20 mcg/kg, but it's more like 25 mcg/kg and it already changes the range from 0-2500x to 0-2000x [*] of the RDA, making them easier to achieve. The dietary recommendations have changed since then, so I'm not sure how trustable they is. But assuming that they're not too off, doses that weren't stimulating are relatively easy to get:

View attachment 12169
[*] 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200, 2000 times.

The current human RDA for thiamine is 1.2 mg/d.
The last three doses weren't stimulatory: 120, 240, 2400 mg; (as you can tell) with 120 mg being fine.​

It seems more reliable to base the comparison on RDAs for different animals instead of scaling using body proportions, but using it for practical purposes (which is what most people do), we get very modest doses: 0, 1, 3, 4, 6, 9, 14, 28, 285 mg/d for a 70 kg adult.

One point is that it was injected, perhaps you can get less undesirable effects of this kind by ingesting it. Getting it preformed is another point to consider in cancro for skipping a more gradual process, this must increase the rate of use by tissues and decrease the chances of feeding the tumor.
- Thiamine Biochemistry

What was discussed on the post below might apply to some of these vitamins:
- Niacinamide Or Just Plain Niacin?

It's interesting that the Gerson therapy was somewhat low in thiamine in relation to the other B-vitamins. I don't know if this was intentional, but it didn't seem so, it was probably just a consequence of liver not providing enough thiamine. People could've supplemented as it was required for niacin.
Dear Oracle,

I am really curious because you cite the Gerbit...I mean... Gerson a lot. Why do you have him in such high regard? Like... I see you using him as a reference to where you compare lots of other theories/practices. I don't know if he is legit or not, I am just curious why you like his protocols so much.
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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Everything becomes really confusing at a point indeed, so many studies with so many different outcomes (not talking about b-1 in particular), just don't know what's correct at certain times.
 

Amazoniac

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Everything becomes really confusing at a point indeed, so many studies with so many different outcomes (not talking about b-1 in particular), just don't know what's correct at certain times.
Given that you don't plan to use them on skin, it's preferable without a doubt to have them powdered due to stability, this way you also won't need to care about keeping them dispersed evenly in the liquid. The smallest capsule size (5) probably won't require excipients with lower amounts. If you can find ones that don't transmit light, it's better.

B-Vitamins and the Brain: Mechanisms, Dose and Efficacy—A Review (Fig. 1)

What about pantothenic acid? Choline and inositol?
Methylfolate in low doses?
Has you trieded adenosyl/hydroxocobalamin instead of the methyl form? These tend to be safer.
I don't know why but in my experience the active vitamins were usually less allergenic.

The amount of alcohol in Energin is a massage to the body.
 
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Insomnia

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Given that you don't plan to use them on skin, it's preferable without a doubt to have them powdered due to stability, this way you also won't need to care about keeping them dispersed evenly in the liquid. The smallest capsule size (5) probably won't require excipients with lower amounts. If you can find ones that don't transmit light, it's better.

B-Vitamins and the Brain: Mechanisms, Dose and Efficacy—A Review (Fig. 1)

What about pantothenic acid? Choline and inositol?
Methylfolate in low doses?
Has you trieded adenosyl/hydroxocobalamin instead of the methyl form? These tend to be safer.
I don't know why but in my experience the active vitamins were usually less allergenic.

The amount of alcohol in Energin is a massage to the body.

I should include panthothenic acid actually. Choline and inositol is something I experienced with in the beginning. Eventually they gave me a weird body odor/ fishy smell under armpits. I stopped using them, but perhaps it's because I also popped PUFA 'fish pills' back then (can't believe I really did that). After I stopped using the omega oils, I still continued to have body odor because choline and inositol were still in the diet (in the form of supplements). When I stopped those supplements aswell, the odor faded away. I dosed it around 250mg-500mg I believe (can't recall exactly). Perhaps I got body odor because it wasn't the best quality choline available? I honestly don't know. Maybe if I reintroduce it now it would be a good indicator whether choline/inositol are the offenders.

As for the b12, I had a bad experience a couple of months ago, I don't know whether b12 and folate contributed to that problem but I guess that's one thing I will never know. Do u think the b12 / folate from "the peaty" diet is enough, and supplementing the other b's by using something like energin. The only thing I wonder is whether there will be an imbalance or whether other "high" dosages of B vitamins affect the b12/folate levels. Would they even affect choline/inositol levels I wonder?

I will be making one more topic about my weighttraining, because I wanted to do it competively but still not sure whether I am going for it. I have experimented/tried out different things and I will discuss it in that topic. I will probably also get bloodworks done this week, because I just restarted supps 1-2 weeks ago. I haven't used supps for about 2 months before that, so let's see what it will bring to the table.
 

Xisca

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I am interested to work on this too, but we maybe should talk interms of % of each compared to the others?
I also suggest to not bother about the amount of B1 and anyway take some more separately until having a result (I mean in case of fatigue or insuline issues, or inflamation, lactic acid etc, fibromyalgia and CFS... as anyway we need a lot more B1)

Also, for me, no way to use any other B6 than P5P!
 
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Insomnia

Insomnia

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I am interested to work on this too, but we maybe should talk interms of % of each compared to the others?
I also suggest to not bother about the amount of B1 and anyway take some more separately until having a result (I mean in case of fatigue or insuline issues, or inflamation, lactic acid etc, fibromyalgia and CFS... as anyway we need a lot more B1)

Also, for me, no way to use any other B6 than P5P!

Hey! Thanks for replying. Yeah I haven't thought about this for a while but I still want to figure out on how to make this supplement. Let me know if u have any suggestions when it comes to formulating it. I think the preservative is quite important (and it's also the thing that I haven't been able to figure out).
 

Xisca

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Hey! Thanks for replying. Yeah I haven't thought about this for a while but I still want to figure out on how to make this supplement. Let me know if u have any suggestions when it comes to formulating it. I think the preservative is quite important (and it's also the thing that I haven't been able to figure out).
I think no preservative is needed, we just have to keep it in powder and find a way to mix well, so that we take all of them. That can be the problem when you see how little biotin is needed!
About the formulation, I have just searched a bit, and they are so different, and we just have to search for the recommended intake, per day.

Biotin is between 30 - 300 micrograms per day, so I would no go beyond 1mg per day...
Also we might need to make TWO, if we want to separate the intake of pantothenic acid (vitamin B5) and biotin (vitamin B7).

I would also search which might be better to not take in the afternoon, to sleep better at night.
Then I would not put in capsule but take the powder through the day, as it goes away in urine.

Then I prefer methylB12 so I take it in sublingual form.
I have not yet found methylfolate in bulk so I would not add B9.

I have found P5P in powder at purebulk but I cannot get it anymore from Europe, and I need this form.
B6 max goes from 25 mg/day to 100mg according to the country....

B1 and B2 could be about 20 mg each, and then a separate B1 in order to increase the intake up to what we need of this one.
 

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