Cyproheptadine - Liquid Serotonin Antagonist For Lab/R&D

[haidut]

I'm sorry in advance to tag you. @haidut

I'm wondering about the differences between cypro and Mirtazapine. Can my rat safely transition from one to the other? High adrenaline seems to be a problem that continues to get worse, even on 7.5 mg Mirt.

Poor metabolic nd poor thyroid function, taking NDT but little else besides Estroban at 1/2 dose. Peat style diet since August. How the rat started Mirt is a long story but has been on it since June.

I have purchased Cypro for my rat and it should arrive today or tomorrow. Would love your thoughts about dosing, transitioning, etc.

Again, sorry to to tag without permission. Thanks so much.

Molecularly they are similar but I think mirtazapine is agonist on 5-HT1 and also stronger antagonist on 5-HT3. Also, mirtazapine has a nasty side effect called QT prolongation. I personally prefer cypro. I think @DaveFoster has used mirtazapine so he may be able to shed more light on how it compares to cypro.

 

[DaveFoster]

Molecularly they are similar but I think mirtazapine is agonist on 5-HT1 and also stronger antagonist on 5-HT3. Also, mirtazapine has a nasty side effect called QT prolongation. I personally prefer cypro. I think @DaveFoster has used mirtazapine so he may be able to shed more light on how it compares to cypro.

@CaliforniaKat

Everything typical of strong 5-HT3 antagonism appears with mirtazapine, such as constipation and improved digestion. Mirtazapine has a much stronger hypnotic effect compared to cyproheptadine due to its serotonin agonism, but higher dosages of mirtazapine can still be activating. Lower dosages of either cyproheptadine or mirtazapine have been shown to dramatically extend lifespan in the lab models, but higher dosages of either do not extend the lifespan as much as the smaller dosages. Compared to higher dosages of cyproheptadine, higher dosages of mirtazapine have a much greater reduction in life-extension.

For mirtazapine, a dosage of either less than 30 mg, and certainly of less than 15 mg, has the drug act as an alpha-2 adrenergic antagonist, so it tends to lower the brain's responsiveness to adrenaline. Dosages of mirtazapine greater than 30 mg more strongly inhibit the reuptake of norepinephrine, the brain's adrenaline, which acts as an agonist of the alpha-2 adrenergic receptors. In other words, dosages greater than 30 mg will more likely cause excitability or agitation.

I've taken high dosages of both cyproheptadine and mirtazapine simultaneously, such as around 24 mg of cyproheptadine and 45 mg of mirtazapine, with no issues besides mild elevations in AST and ALT enzymes, no different than that resulting from cyproheptadine alone. However, your liver may have a higher burden of estrogen and thus a combination of the two could cause liver complications.

Lastly, mirtazapine has been linked to type II diabetes, which could indirectly be due to weight gain, but the drug also elevates leptin levels, which can promote insulin resistance.

 

[Kartoffel]

I have been using the cyproheptadine for a few days now and wanted to give a brief review/ share my experience with it.
The first day I took two doses - 1mg in the afternoon and 1.5mg at night - and they knocked me out pretty well. I almost immediately fell asleep after the first dose, and the second caused me to sleep through the night for 12 hours. On the second day, I decided to limit it to one dose of 1mg at night, and I am doing really well with that, so far. The sense of pressure I had in my stomach for about a month disappeared, my appetite in the morning drastically increased, and I now wanna have a huge breakfast (usually can't eat much before the afternoon). I also dream more vividly, and the extreme tiredness I had during the day after the first try has not recurred. So, overall the cypro works really well for me. Much gracias to @haidut for providing it!

 

[haidut]

I have been using the cyproheptadine for a few days now and wanted to give a brief review/ share my experience with it.
The first day I took two doses - 1mg in the afternoon and 1.5mg at night - and they knocked me out pretty well. I almost immediately fell asleep after the first dose and the second caused me to sleep through the night for 12 hours. On the second day, I decided to limit it to one dose of 1mg at night, and I am doing really well with that, so far. The sense of pressure I had in my stomach for about a month disappeared, my appetite in the morning drastically increased, and I now wanna have a huge breakfast (usually can't much before the afternoon). I also dream more vividly and the extreme tiredness I had during the day after the first try has not recurred. So, overall the cypro works really well for me. Much gracias to @haidut for providing it!

Thanks for the feedback!

 

[Kartoffel]

For most people, Ray recommends 1mg cypro daily, no more. For people with serious conditions he has mentioned doing 2mg - 3mg daily. So, at 6 drops you are above even the "serious" doses he mentioned

Do you know why he recommends not to take more than 2mg, even in serious doses? You already mentioned the potential dopamine antagonism in this thread, but I haven't found any trials in which even much larger doses caused any significant side effects. For example, in this study cypro was remarkably successfull and safe in treating children with various gastrointestinal dysfunctions. It provided complete relief for all the patients in the subgroup with IBS. Their mean dose was 4.8mg per day, and the trial lasted several months. The most serious side effects were sleepiness and weight gain (which is probably a good thing for most people suffering from IBS etc).

Sci-Hub | | 10.1097/MPG.0000000000000964

Cyproheptadine Use in Children With Functional Gastrointestinal Disorders.
Madani S1, Cortes O, Thomas R.

OBJECTIVE:
The objective of this study was to evaluate clinical improvement and safety with use of cyproheptadine in functional gastrointestinal disorders (FGIDs) in children.

METHODS:
Retrospectively evaluating the efficacy and safety of the use for indications including Rome III-defined FGIDs: functional abdominal pain, functional dyspepsia, irritable bowel syndrome (IBS), abdominal migraine, cyclic vomiting syndrome. Response categories were as follows: no improvement group/partial improvement group; requiring intervention, or complete improvement group (CIG); warranting discontinuation; ongoing use; or parental unwillingness to stop medication.

RESULTS:
Among 307 patients, 151 included; 58% girls, ages 1 to 18 years (median 9); 110 (72.8%) reported complete symptom improvement; 41 (27.2%) reported no or partial improvement. Mean initial and final doses in the CIG were 4.85 mg/day (0.14 mg · kg · day) and 5.34 mg/day (0.14 mg · kg · day), respectively. A total of 102/151 (68%) reported no adverse effects. Adverse effects shown were as sleepiness in 19/151 (13%) and weight gain in 15/151 (10%). Cyproheptadine was effective in improving symptoms of functional abdominal pain, functional dyspepsia, in a relatively larger number of patients. Patients in smaller numbers had significant improvement 13/18 (72%) abdominal migraine, 10/10 (100%) IBS, and 6/8 (75%) cyclic vomiting syndrome. This is the first time report of improvement in IBS. Other pharmacodynamics had been as follows: the lower the body weight, the higher are the odds of no to partial improvement; patients in no improvement group/partial improvement group experience more adverse effects as compared to the CIG; the single best predictor of clinical improvement was body mass index. A 1 unit increase in body mass index with cyproheptadine use increased the odds of clinical improvement by 1.5-fold (P = 0.01).

CONCLUSIONS:
Cyproheptadine effectively improves symptoms of Rome III-defined FGIDs and has a good safety profile when used for these indications

 

[Zpol]

@DaveFoster @Koveras
I wanted to post this here with links to frequent posters hoping this might help someone....here is the content of a recent string of emails between haidut and me about cyproheptadine, thyroid, etc. Since this is a cut/paste from email, must read from the bottom up.

I am only 2 days into this (only took 1 mg about an hour before bed last night), but I notice vast improvement in sleep and GI issues already. I forgot to add I have taken digestive enzymes every meal as well for years since I no longer have a gallbladder. I will try to post again in a few days. I don't use the word miracle in a frivolous way, but this comes close. Hopefully the benefits continue indefinitely.

On Friday, April 13, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:



I think you should definitely post this on the forum. Quite a few people there struggle with GI issues, usually related to stress, so they would be quite interested in hearing your experience.


From:
Sent: Friday, April 13, 2018 12:02:52 AM
To: IdeaLabs Customer Service
Subject: Re: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

Amazing. Thanks for the idea about relora and the link to cortisol. I have to say, I tried 1 mg cypro (Rx 4 mg tabs) last night having never taken more than a very small amount out of concern it would be a negative experience like benadryl. I can't remember when I had such a good nights sleep. Plus, some stomach discomfort after dinner went away, and I was able to eat some things today that would normally give me trouble. I also felt warmer all day but never took my temperature to confirm it. And, to top it off, my normal job stress did not impact me the way it usually does. So the idea about cyproheptadine antagonism of cortisol, serotonin, anti inflammatory and the like is making sense. I have to think also some regular methyl B12 has benefited also. But, in all it seems the cypro is helping somehow in numerous but very subway ways. Maybe I should post this on the forum.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Thursday, April 12, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:

Most gastric ulcers not due to H. pylori infection are due to excessive cortisol, hence the quote in that link that 93% of race horses have ulcers. So, in addition to this product you can also try another herbal one called Relora, which was also shown in animal models to rapidly heal ulcers. Google for "relora" for more info.


From:
Sent: Thursday, April 12, 2018 12:42:07 AM
To: IdeaLabs Customer Service
Subject: Re: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

Good advice. They have more fear about thyroid than any of the killer drugs advertised all over the place these days.

If my latest attempts don't work, I am going to try this next no kidding.

Jeremiah's Ulcer Repulser™

Heck I may give it a try anyway since all the ingredients are very safe.

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On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:

Wow, did not know about Armor. I guess the doctors would do just about anything before they consider thyroid dysfunction as an issue. PPI and SSRI pills seem to be the go to treatment for any malady.

I would stick with cypro for a week or two and take a break every 2 weeks or so but if it is helping then I would use it in lower doses (1mg-2mg) daily. A grain of NDT would likely not hurt even according to the paranoid medical standards but I would still let the doctor know, just in case he has anything informative to say.


From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 8:47:58 PM
To: IdeaLabs Customer Service
Subject: Re: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

By the way don't know if you had heard but Armour is now on some kind of physician watch list called Beers that identifies high risk drugs for anyone at 65 or older. Armour is listed as such, and I just got turned down for a trial of it the other day due to my age and the fact that "my thyroid numbers are in line."

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On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:

Hi G,



I think TyroMax (our NDT product) would be the most benign to try first. Most people seem to respond well to 6-7 drops daily (1 grain) but some take up to the full 20 drop dose (3 grains) in divided daily doses.

Vitamins B1&B2 help the liver excrete estrogen and maybe even some antiserotonin like cypro can be tried if you have symptoms of serotonin excess like poor digestion, IBS, mood swings, agitation, nervousness, etc. Of course, I would advise asking a doctor first before doing any of these.

Just my 2c.



--Georgi


From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 2:46:34 PM
To:
Subject: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

Haidut hope your day is going well.

Of all the thyroid supps you have, what in your opinion would be the least intensive one to aid an increase in my metabolic rate/body temp? Morning temps consistently range high 96s to low 97s. Had one episode where I took a very small amount of cytomel/t3 one morning and temp fell to 95!

Have a Rx for synthroid but have not refilled it or used it consistently. Had Rx for Armour quite a while ago, and it seemed to help initially but I developed some odd sensitivity to it and stopped it. Recent testing showed high range t3, low range t4 (about 70 iirc) and tsh of 1.5. Just took temp midday and it was 97* F. I do take Tcyp injectable 25 mgs e3d and higher dose methyl B12 due to malabsorption and elevated homocysteine issues, but it has been tough to find the right dose. Also have very slow breakdown of stress neurotransmitters due to COMT snps etc., inefficient E2 clearance and glutamate/gaba imbalances due to COMT snps so caffeine and other stimulants can be difficult to tolerate. Tried pregnenolone a long time ago, and it was too stimulating.

FWIW, I had a pretty severe head trauma about 28 years ago from a car wreck followed by tryptophan sickness/EMS a year later. Wonder if the effects from those are still lingering.

I appreciate any suggestions you might have, as I think everything points to thyroid in the end even some childhood things I recall. My body weight is ideal, and I was typically underweight until age 20's onward. I have never been overweight. Outwardly I appear extremely healthy like someone 15- 20 years younger than my age. I will be 67 this September.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:



Wow, did not know about Armor. I guess the doctors would do just about anything before they consider thyroid dysfunction as an issue. PPI and SSRI pills seem to be the go to treatment for any malady.

I would stick with cypro for a week or two and take a break every 2 weeks or so but if it is helping then I would use it in lower doses (1mg-2mg) daily. A grain of NDT would likely not hurt even according to the paranoid medical standards but I would still let the doctor know, just in case he has anything informative to say.


From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 8:47:58 PM
To: IdeaLabs Customer Service
Subject: Re: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

By the way don't know if you had heard but Armour is now on some kind of physician watch list called Beers that identifies high risk drugs for anyone at 65 or older. Armour is listed as such, and I just got turned down for a trial of it the other day due to my age and the fact that "my thyroid numbers are in line."

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail




On Wednesday, April 11, 2018 IdeaLabs Customer Service wrote:

Hi G,



I think TyroMax (our NDT product) would be the most benign to try first. Most people seem to respond well to 6-7 drops daily (1 grain) but some take up to the full 20 drop dose (3 grains) in divided daily doses.

Vitamins B1&B2 help the liver excrete estrogen and maybe even some antiserotonin like cypro can be tried if you have symptoms of serotonin excess like poor digestion, IBS, mood swings, agitation, nervousness, etc. Of course, I would advise asking a doctor first before doing any of these.

Just my 2c.



--Georgi


From:
Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2018 2:46:34 PM
To:
Subject: Thyroid ? From Texon at raypeatforum

Haidut hope your day is going well.

Of all the thyroid supps you have, what in your opinion would be the least intensive one to aid an increase in my metabolic rate/body temp? Morning temps consistently range high 96s to low 97s. Had one episode where I took a very small amount of cytomel/t3 one morning and temp fell to 95!

Have a Rx for synthroid but have not refilled it or used it consistently. Had Rx for Armour quite a while ago, and it seemed to help initially but I developed some odd sensitivity to it and stopped it. Recent testing showed high range t3, low range t4 (about 70 iirc) and tsh of 1.5. Just took temp midday and it was 97* F. I do take Tcyp injectable 25 mgs e3d and higher dose methyl B12 due to malabsorption and elevated homocysteine issues, but it has been tough to find the right dose. Also have very slow breakdown of stress neurotransmitters due to COMT snps etc., inefficient E2 clearance and glutamate/gaba imbalances due to COMT snps so caffeine and other stimulants can be difficult to tolerate. Tried pregnenolone a long time ago, and it was too stimulating.

FWIW, I had a pretty severe head trauma about 28 years ago from a car wreck followed by tryptophan sickness/EMS a year later. Wonder if the effects from those are still lingering.

I appreciate any suggestions you might have, as I think everything points to thyroid in the end even some childhood things I recall. My body weight is ideal, and I was typically underweight until age 20's onward. I have never been overweight. Outwardly I appear extremely healthy like someone 15- 20 years younger than my age. I will be 67 this September.

Sent from AOL Mobile Mail

Just want to say thank you for sharing this on the forum. I have severe chronic gastritis which I have emailed RP about, he replied to me with several studies, one of which Peritol (Cypro) was indicated for chronic gastritis. It was just an abstract however and I am left wondering about the dosage that was used.

Ter Arkh. 1985;57(2):31-4.
[Blood viscosity indicators in patients with gastric and duodenal diseases].
[Article in Russian]
Murashko VV, Zhuravlev AK, Shylle ChI, Shabashova NI, Skliarova MA.
Abstract
A total of 102 patients with peptic ulcer of the stomach and duodenum, chronic gastritis, and erosive gastritis were examined. A statistically significant increase in blood viscosity was recorded during the diseases enumerated. In peptic ulcer and chronic gastritis, the fibrinogen and hematocrit levels did not change quantitatively although quantitative changes in the fibrinogen level were likely to influence blood viscosity. Red cell aggregation was found to be increased, being the main factor responsible for blood viscosity deterioration. The authors studied the effect of cimetidine on blood viscosity in patients with peptic ulcer and the effect of peritol in chronic gastritis. These drugs were found to markedly reduce blood viscosity, as a result of which the circulation in the gastric mucosa improved, promoting the cure of patients with peptic ulcer. According to the authors' opinion, cimetidine, that blocks H2 histamine receptors, lessens the effect of histamine on red cell aggregation, thereby improving blood viscosity.

@haidut are you aware of any studies along this reasoning that might indicate a dosage and dosage schedule? For research and development reasons only of course.
High cortisol is also a factor in my case so Cypro would theoretically help with both that and the blood viscosity issue. I have not tried Cypro yet because I also have chronic constipation issues and I get serious side effects from H2 blockers including famotidine and cimetidine (could be the exipients though!). I have zero side effects from benedryl though so I'm thinking Cypro will be safe. The Relora is interesting. I'd be concerned about estrogen since herbal remedies can be estrogenic (I have estrogen dominance so got to be extra careful).

 

[Texon]

Just want to say thank you for sharing this on the forum. I have severe chronic gastritis which I have emailed RP about, he replied to me with several studies, one of which Peritol (Cypro) was indicated for chronic gastritis. It was just an abstract however and I am left wondering about the dosage that was used.



@haidut are you aware of any studies along this reasoning that might indicate a dosage and dosage schedule? For research and development reasons only of course.
High cortisol is also a factor in my case so Cypro would theoretically help with both that and the blood viscosity issue. I have not tried Cypro yet because I also have chronic constipation issues and I get serious side effects from H2 blockers including famotidine and cimetidine (could be the exipients though!). I have zero side effects from benedryl though so I'm thinking Cypro will be safe. The Relora is interesting. I'd be concerned about estrogen since herbal remedies can be estrogenic (I have estrogen dominance so got to be extra careful).

@Zpol this is amazing! I just found and replied to your thread titled...sicker than ever...praying that you find ultimate relief...l agree with the emf info by the way...we just need to find a way to be impervious to them. I am starting LDN myself tonight probably at a dose of 0.5 mgs to begin.

 

[Zpol]

@Zpol this is amazing! I just found and replied to your thread titled...sicker than ever...praying that you find ultimate relief...l agree with the emf info by the way...we just need to find a way to be impervious to them. I am starting LDN myself tonight probably at a dose of 0.5 mgs to begin.

Thanks! I just responded on that thread too. The sick feeling issues have mostly cleared up, even my persistent constipation issue has improved a tiny bit. But now all the inflammation has moved to my stomach and esophagus. Hopefully this is an issue Cypro can help with, if not I will look into LDN further.
Thank you so much for your replies!

 

[Mauritio]

Is a topical application of cypro less likely to elevate liver-enzymes since it is bypassing the first-pass-metabolism ?

 

[GorillaHead]

Guys how effective is cyprophetadine for food eating competition? . But no really I am serious?

 

[japanesedude]

Is there any reliable reason why I get ED from Cypro.
dose is always under 1mg.

 

[Waynish]

Anyone who uses it topically in the same area notice it causing skin changes? Seems to have made it look a bit wrinkly, at least temporarily.

 

[GorillaHead]

So my cypro arrived. Do rats use topically only ?

 

[GorillaHead]

Day 2 of Cypro use. Mild nausea. Gas. Diahrea.

Amazing sleep. Barely works for appeptite Cause of nausea I wonder why I am experiencing that symptom. Almost like serotonin upregulated or something

 

[Kartoffel]

Day 2 of Cypro use. Mild nausea. Gas. Diahrea.

Amazing sleep. Barely works for appeptite Cause of nausea I wonder why I am experiencing that symptom. Almost like serotonin upregulated or something

How much did you take?

 

[GorillaHead]

How much did you take?

Day 1 I took 3.5mg. Day 2 I took .5mg. Does it build up?

 

[Kartoffel]

The effect quickly becomes less extreme, I think. In my case, 1mg the first day completely knocked me out and made me sleep for 14 hours. After that the only effect was a completely pain/pressure free stomach and increased appetite. I now take 4-6mg every day. I think your starting dose was a little too high.

 

[GorillaHead]

The effect quickly becomes less extreme, I think. In my case, 1mg the first day completely knocked me out and made me sleep for 14 hours. After that the only effect was a completely pain/pressure free stomach and increased appetite. I now take 4-6mg every day. I think your starting dose was a little too high.

Interesting. Ya maybe started to early. Def makes me thirsty. I am gonna stay at .5mg for a couple of days. My biggest issue is the stomach and gut side effects. Hopefully they subside. Won’t be taking any magnesium anymore I read cypro has a magnesium sparing affect

 

[Kartoffel]

Interesting. Ya maybe started to early. Def makes me thirsty. I am gonna stay at .5mg for a couple of days. My biggest issue is the stomach and gut side effects. Hopefully they subside. Won’t be taking any magnesium anymore I read cypro has a magnesium sparing affect

Yes, if you want you can increase it gradually b .5 or 1mg per day. Do you have a reference for the magnesium effect? Never heard that before

 

[GorillaHead]

Yes, if you want you can increase it gradually b .5 or 1mg per day. Do you have a reference for the magnesium effect? Never heard that before

I legit can’t find the source where I read it anymore I was looking up cypro and adipogensis I remember reading it there.

I also read it has diuretic affects

One research site said it has an affect on potassium channel.

Which is interesting. Makes me think it has similar affect to spiralactone