Peat Battle Rumble: The Ultimate Anti-Histamine Wonder Drug

[Texon]

I would also add all of the ergot-derivative drugs here as well. They are all histamine antagonists on their own.
Striking differences of action of lisuride stereoisomers at histamine H1 receptors. - PubMed - NCBI
"...High affinity of 8S-lisuride and low affinity of 8R-lisuride was also estimated for gpH(1)Rs and hH(1)Rs in radioligand binding studies. The 1-allylated derivative of 8S-lisuride, 1-allyl-8S-lisuride, was equipotent with its parent compound (pD(2) 7.7) and showed enhanced efficacy in guinea pig ileum and at recombinant gpH(1)Rs in GTPase studies (E (max) 53%, 32%). Other antiparkinsionian drugs such as 8S-terguride, pergolide, cabergoline and bromocriptine displayed lower affinities for H(1)Rs than 8S-lisuride. In conclusion, our results show that the antiparkinsonian drug 8S-lisuride is dramatically more potent than its epimeric counterpart 8R-lisuride in all assays used. 8S-Lisuride behaved as a partial agonist at gpH(1)Rs and as a silent antagonist at hH(1)Rs. Thus 8S-lisuride may act as an antagonist in vivo. This may be of potential importance since H(1)Rs modulate dopaminergic transmission in the brain."

Brain-mediated protective interactions of histaminergic H2 and dopaminergic systems in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Pretreatment with dopamine agonists (bromocriptine 2.5, L-dopa 2.5, apomorphine 0.05 mg/kg i.p.) and a histamine H2 receptor antagonist (cimetidine 50.0 mg/kg i.p.) was found to greatly reduce the haemorrhagic gastric lesions induced by 15-min pylorus ligation in rats. On the other hand, pretreatment with dopamine antagonists (haloperidol 5.0, sulpiride 1.0, domperidone 5.0 mg/kg i.p.) significantly aggravated these lesions. Cimetidine markedly diminished the ulcerogenic effect of haloperidol but not that of domperidone, suggesting a brain-mediated site for the protective interaction of cimetidine and dopamine systems."

The second study above suggests that dopaminergic drugs are H2 antagonists, or H2 antagonists are dopaminergic, or both. This matches my previous post showing that dopaminergic drugs are even more potent than H2 antagonists as gastro-protectants.
Dopaminergic drugs treat ulcers better than acid-blockers | Ray Peat Forum

Does this include bergamot as in earl grey tea? Or is there no connection whatsoever?

 

[NathanK]

I keep meaning to test this substance, but the H1 inverse agonist Pitolisant is another to add to the list. H1 is said to be a strong neurotransmitter modulator. Particularly of histamine. It is often used as a nootropic to help wakefulness (in contrast to other antihistamines) and is now out of trials and can be bought by prescription.

Its a bit odd substance. Haidut has said (and I think ive read it elsewhere) that particular histamine receptor antagonists will antagonize all receptors. And if cypro and others inhibit H1 that causes drowsiness then therefore im not sure how pitolisant exactly works.

Adrenaline (atropine) is used in case of allergic reactions. I am not sure if adrenaline works as a antihistamine or how exactly it works in those situations, but worth mentioning. Might be related to why Ray says coffee can work as an antihistamine because of the caffeine. An increase in adrenaline or dopamine could possibly be competing with histamine.

Speaking of, the amino acids beta alanine and taurine compete with histamine for entry into the cell as well. Ive personally tested with good results.

 

[haidut]

Does this include bergamot as in earl grey tea? Or is there no connection whatsoever?

What made you think bergamot has anything to do with the ergot fungus?

 

[Texon]

What made you think bergamot has anything to do with the ergot fungus?

Thought I had read somewhere there was a connection. My mistake.

 

[haidut]

Thought I had read somewhere there was a connection. My mistake.

If you find it please post it here. I would be interested to read. Looking at the molecule structure it seems quite different.

 

[Regina]

I'm really curious about ritanserin. Anhedonia never seems to go away.

Hi Dave, I don't know if you mentioned it elsewhere. Have you been able to resolve the anhedonia?

 

[DaveFoster]

Hi Dave, I don't know if you mentioned it elsewhere. Have you been able to resolve the anhedonia?

Yeah; my cortisol is a bit high, and I'm sure that's the cause. I don't have consistent anhedonia, but it's predominant. I'm currently upping my dose of progesterone to see if that helps.

 

[Sheik]

@DaveFoster Any updates for this thread? What opinions have you developed about these different drugs over the years/months?

 

[DaveFoster]

@DaveFoster Any updates for this thread? What opinions have you developed about these different drugs over the years/months?

Right now, I'm dealing with severe anxiety, and I'm using 45 mg mirtazapine, 20-30 mg cyproheptadine, 3 drops of Progest-E every hour or so, and about 1-3 grams of pregnenolone daily (topically in DMSO) to deal with the symptoms. I also take B-vitamins, and as long as I take everything, I feel okay.

I'm eager to try ketotifen, although I'm wary of any negative cardiac effects (as with prolongation of the QT interval). I'm adjusting to thyroid, and I suspect underlying hypothyroidism as the cause in anxiety (as haidut has said that lowered expression of cytochrome c oxidase in the brain [indicative of hypometabolic disorders] often causes anxiety).

 

[InChristAlone]

Right now, I'm dealing with severe anxiety, and I'm using 45 mg mirtazapine, 20-30 mg cyproheptadine, 3 drops of Progest-E every hour or so, and about 1-3 grams of pregnenolone daily (topically in DMSO) to deal with the symptoms. I also take B-vitamins, and as long as I take everything, I feel okay.

I'm eager to try ketotifen, although I'm wary of any negative cardiac effects (as with prolongation of the QT interval). I'm adjusting to thyroid, and I suspect underlying hypothyroidism as the cause in anxiety (as haidut has said that lowered expression of cytochrome c oxidase in the brain [indicative of hypometabolic disorders] often causes anxiety).

I feel for anyone with severe anxiety as I've been through the ropes with it myself. I only need a bit of progesterone second half of my cycle, and .5 mg cyproheptadine to be near completely free of it, it can make a come back when off the progesterone but it's getting easier to manage. One morning I felt like it'd be an anxious day and I decided to do a vitamin C flush. Literally right after my mind cleared for the rest of the day. Have you ever tried one? I know Peat fans are so cautious with it, but taking drugs in my opinion should be last resort, and vit c is one of the safest supps.

 

[Regina]

Right now, I'm dealing with severe anxiety, and I'm using 45 mg mirtazapine, 20-30 mg cyproheptadine, 3 drops of Progest-E every hour or so, and about 1-3 grams of pregnenolone daily (topically in DMSO) to deal with the symptoms. I also take B-vitamins, and as long as I take everything, I feel okay.

I'm eager to try ketotifen, although I'm wary of any negative cardiac effects (as with prolongation of the QT interval). I'm adjusting to thyroid, and I suspect underlying hypothyroidism as the cause in anxiety (as haidut has said that lowered expression of cytochrome c oxidase in the brain [indicative of hypometabolic disorders] often causes anxiety).

why do you think ketotifen could have negative cardiac effects?
I am currently taking 2mg/day in divided doses. I have not noticed anything. (which is not unusual for me). But it may have cured my bowel distress that I had had as one of the symptoms when I had to stop aikido for a few months. That issue is no longer happening.

 

[DaveFoster]

why do you think ketotifen could have negative cardiac effects?
I am currently taking 2mg/day in divided doses. I have not noticed anything. (which is not unusual for me). But it may have cured my bowel distress that I had had as one of the symptoms when I had to stop aikido for a few months. That issue is no longer happening.

Interesting that you haven't noticed anything. Ketotifen has a reputation for ridiculous sedation.

I already take mirtazapine and cyproheptadine, and I'm concerned with adding another drug to the cocktail.

 

[Waynish]

Right now, I'm dealing with severe anxiety, and I'm using 45 mg mirtazapine, 20-30 mg cyproheptadine, 3 drops of Progest-E every hour or so, and about 1-3 grams of pregnenolone daily (topically in DMSO) to deal with the symptoms. I also take B-vitamins, and as long as I take everything, I feel okay.

I'm eager to try ketotifen, although I'm wary of any negative cardiac effects (as with prolongation of the QT interval). I'm adjusting to thyroid, and I suspect underlying hypothyroidism as the cause in anxiety (as haidut has said that lowered expression of cytochrome c oxidase in the brain [indicative of hypometabolic disorders] often causes anxiety).

Every hour or so? I'm not in your situation so can't judge, of course, but it really sounds like you're going down the wrong path. It seems like you're using these substances the way a heroin addict uses heroin. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with either, but they seem like a pattern of dependency. I think there's a way to use these substances to break patterns - but some people use substances such that the longer it has been from the last dose the worse they feel...

 

[DaveFoster]

Every hour or so? I'm not in your situation so can't judge, of course, but it really sounds like you're going down the wrong path. It seems like you're using these substances the way a heroin addict uses heroin. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with either, but they seem like a pattern of dependency. I think there's a way to use these substances to break patterns - but some people use substances such that the longer it has been from the last dose the worse they feel...

I'm well aware of the severity of the situation. This has only happened this winter to counter symptoms of seasonal affective disorder (as anxiety and nausea), or as Dr. Peat says, the pathology of estrogen dominance (winter sickness.) October I felt better, then November slightly worse, and now in December absolutely awful, as with stress, anxiety and so on.

My options now are to continue taking the progesterone, cypro and so on, and I'm considering gabapentin for anxiety in conjunction with the aforementioned. I can't raise thyroid any faster because I'll get a high pulse, so I need to weigh my options and endure for the next year.

To be honest, I feel okay if I take all the aforementioned. Without them (particularly the cypro), I'll get waves of nausea with estrogenic symptoms such as hyperventilation, nipple burning, and IBS. I can't remember the last time I cried until recently (yesterday).

 

[Waynish]

I'm well aware of the severity of the situation. This has only happened this winter to counter symptoms of seasonal affective disorder (as anxiety and nausea), or as Dr. Peat says, the pathology of estrogen dominance (winter sickness.) October I felt better, then November slightly worse, and now in December absolutely awful, as with stress, anxiety and so on.

My options now are to continue taking the progesterone, cypro and so on, and I'm considering gabapentin for anxiety in conjunction with the aforementioned. I can't raise thyroid any faster because I'll get a high pulse, so I need to weigh my options and endure for the next year.

To be honest, I feel okay if I take all the aforementioned. Without them (particularly the cypro), I'll get waves of nausea with estrogenic symptoms such as hyperventilation, nipple burning, and IBS. I can't remember the last time I cried until recently (yesterday).

I sometimes worry that many chronically sick people give health advice to other chronically sick people on the internet. I'm not directing this at you, but how have you decided that what you need is a better antihistamine drug? If it is winter sickness, then what about using a tanning bed for 2-minutes 3-times per week with coconut oil? I mean, don't you think people who are following paradigms you disagree with (like paleo) also have similar experiences of being up and down for various months (and attributing it to not executing their own paradigms well enough)? Do you feel like you understand the cause(s) of your health problem(s)?

 

[Dhair]

I'm well aware of the severity of the situation. This has only happened this winter to counter symptoms of seasonal affective disorder (as anxiety and nausea), or as Dr. Peat says, the pathology of estrogen dominance (winter sickness.) October I felt better, then November slightly worse, and now in December absolutely awful, as with stress, anxiety and so on.

My options now are to continue taking the progesterone, cypro and so on, and I'm considering gabapentin for anxiety in conjunction with the aforementioned. I can't raise thyroid any faster because I'll get a high pulse, so I need to weigh my options and endure for the next year.

To be honest, I feel okay if I take all the aforementioned. Without them (particularly the cypro), I'll get waves of nausea with estrogenic symptoms such as hyperventilation, nipple burning, and IBS. I can't remember the last time I cried until recently (yesterday).

I know that you are already aware of this, but both mirtazapine and cyproheptadine have the potential to cause withdrawal symptoms, and I think the cyproheptadine dose is unnecessarily high for long term use.
Do you find yourself affected by SAD every year?
Do you still do fun things around this time of year? Are you hanging out with friends at all?

 

[InChristAlone]

Every hour or so? I'm not in your situation so can't judge, of course, but it really sounds like you're going down the wrong path. It seems like you're using these substances the way a heroin addict uses heroin. I don't think there is anything morally wrong with either, but they seem like a pattern of dependency. I think there's a way to use these substances to break patterns - but some people use substances such that the longer it has been from the last dose the worse they feel...

I agree with Waynish, Dave. Even though you completely ignored my comment (not unusual on this forum full of men), I'm still following your story.

 

[Waynish]

I agree with Waynish, Dave. Even though you completely ignored my comment (not unusual on this forum full of men), I'm still following your story.

Don't think it is a men vs women thing... As much as the 2017 environment isn't conducive to male-female relationships
I think it is more of a people filtering out anything that is a red flag for "not within my strict paradigm." Then again, with even the most "accurate paradigms," some people end up having zero success due to misapplication and just general sickliness.

 

[alywest]

Right now, I'm dealing with severe anxiety, and I'm using 45 mg mirtazapine, 20-30 mg cyproheptadine, 3 drops of Progest-E every hour or so, and about 1-3 grams of pregnenolone daily (topically in DMSO) to deal with the symptoms. I also take B-vitamins, and as long as I take everything, I feel okay.

I'm eager to try ketotifen, although I'm wary of any negative cardiac effects (as with prolongation of the QT interval). I'm adjusting to thyroid, and I suspect underlying hypothyroidism as the cause in anxiety (as haidut has said that lowered expression of cytochrome c oxidase in the brain [indicative of hypometabolic disorders] often causes anxiety).

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but Progest-E has soy isoflavones in it which negates andronergic properties. It can also cause a lot of allergic symptoms on its own!!!!

Progest E is a unique supplement in that it’s a liquid product intended for oral consumption and it must be kept in the refrigerator. While multiple sites list the ingredients used to make this product, there’s no official label that was posted for consumer evaluation. Based on what we’ve learned about Progest E, here is what you can expect to find inside:

Soy Isoflavones: Soy contains chemicals known as isoflavones (called genistein and daidzein), which are thought to mimic the effect of certain hormones inside the body.

Isoflavones are often used to help regulate hormone balance, resulting in relief from menopausal symptoms like hot flashes, mood swings or night sweats.

Something worth mentioning—this ingredient has been associated with both exacerbating hormone-sensitive breast, ovarian or endometrial cancers, as well as reducing the risk.

Users may want to talk to a doctor before taking a product containing soy if they have one of these cancers or are at a higher risk of developing these conditions.

• Side effects may include gas, bloating or an allergic reaction with use.

Wild Yam: A plant that contains a compound known as diosgenin, which may be made into various steroid hormones like DHEA or estrogen. Wild yam is thought to help women reduce hot flashes during menopause and is marketed as a natural alternative to hormone replacement therapy.

 

[Waynish]

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse, but Progest-E has soy isoflavones in it which negates andronergic properties. It can also cause a lot of allergic symptoms on its own!!!!

Progest E is a unique supplement in that it’s a liquid product intended for oral consumption and it must be kept in the refrigerator. While multiple sites list the ingredients used to make this product, there’s no official label that was posted for consumer evaluation. Based on what we’ve learned about Progest E, here is what you can expect to find inside:

Soy Isoflavones: Soy contains chemicals known as isoflavones (called genistein and daidzein), which are thought to mimic the effect of certain hormones inside the body.

Isoflavones are often used to help regulate hormone balance, resulting in relief from menopausal symptoms like hot flashes, mood swings or night sweats.

Something worth mentioning—this ingredient has been associated with both exacerbating hormone-sensitive breast, ovarian or endometrial cancers, as well as reducing the risk.

Users may want to talk to a doctor before taking a product containing soy if they have one of these cancers or are at a higher risk of developing these conditions.

• Side effects may include gas, bloating or an allergic reaction with use.

Wild Yam: A plant that contains a compound known as diosgenin, which may be made into various steroid hormones like DHEA or estrogen. Wild yam is thought to help women reduce hot flashes during menopause and is marketed as a natural alternative to hormone replacement therapy.

Where is this quote from? Hard to believe I missed soy-based ingredients when buying this for friends...