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Peat Battle Rumble: The Ultimate Anti-Histamine Wonder Drug

Discussion in 'Health' started by DaveFoster, Nov 19, 2015.

  1. DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    So, let's talk anti-histamines and anti-cholinergic drugs.

    Obviously, they reduce the short-term memory capabilities of the individual, but as purported by haidut, such executive capacities are enhanced through the actions of estrogen, for example, so they are a short-term gain at the expense of long-term structural integrity.

    Let's go over the drugs that reduce both histamine, acetylcholine, and ideally other stress hormones, such as cortisol, prolactin, TSH, serotonin, and estrogen, among others.

    Cyproheptadine

    Here's a viable option, as cyproheptadine is used to treat a myriad of conditions, and seems to suppress 'suppress prolactin, growth hormone, aldosterone, ACTH, TSH, and cortisol'; win, win, win, win, win, win, and win.

    However, cyproheptadine also acts an antagonist to D3 receptors; an undesirable side-effect. This can leave one without adequate focus, concentration, or energy due to redcued dopaminergic transmission. This may be offset by supplementing a ergot-derivative, such as LSD, lisuride, bromocriptine, or the most ideal ergot drug, hydergine.

    Additionally, cyproheptadine seems to counteract the negative cardiovascular effects of ergot-derivatives. Therefore, it may enhance the safety and efficacy of all ergot-derivatives.

    So, let's look at some alternative drugs similar to cyproheptadine to that do not antagonize D3 receptors.

    Mianserin

    Similar to cyproheptadine, mianserin extends lifespan. Peat has mentioned the mianserin also reduces aggressive behavior, which seems to fall in line with cyproheptadine's sedative effects. Like cyproheptadine, mainserin also may be effective in treating autism.

    Mianserin, but not ritanserin, increases extracellular dopamine concentrations in the prefrontal cortex.

    Mianserin also activates k-opioid receptors and acts a partial opioid agonist. By comparison, estrogen also acts an agonist to mu and kappa opioid receptors. This is likely an undesirable effect of mianserin.

    Roads @ drugs-forum.comFurther evidence for mianserin as increasing noradrenaline concentrations.

    Mirtazapine

    As previously metnioned, mirtazapine does not act as an NRI like mianserin. I am currently unaware of Peat's opinion of norepinephrine, but I do know that he is against excessive epinephrine (adrenaline.)

    Ray Peat:
    It seems that Peat is in favor of lower norepinephrine (noradrenaline) and epinehprine (adrenaline) concentrations, so it seems that mirtazapine is superior in this regard.

    Ketanserin

    Ketanserin also effectively treats autism.

    As previously mentioned by Peat, ketanserin inhibits noradrenaline responses.

    Of the drugs tested, ketanserin may be the most useful in variant angina since it is a potent 5HT antagonist, lacks [serotonergic] agonist activity and has alpha-adrenoceptor blocking activity.

    Such_Saturation


    Ritanserin

    Pergolide, along with ondanesteron or ketanserin, but not mirtazapine, revesrses long-term methamphetamine sensitization. So for all you meth heads out there, this is the drug combination for you.

    Ritanserin improves sleep quality. Doses are 5-10 mg for this effect.

    Ritanserin blocks dopamine re-uptake in the rat frontal cortex, similar to cocaine.

    Ritanserin seems to provide a more stimulating option than ketanserin.

    Flibanserin

    Flibanserin seems to raise dopamine and norepinephrine concentrations, while lowering serotonin. This reminds me of Wellbutrin. Both significantly enhance the sex drive.
    Famotidine

    Famotidine lowers PTH quite significantly, improves glucose metabolism, is a CA inhibitor, is hepatoprotective, promotes wound healing, and plays a role in treating schizophrenia, autism, Parkinson's, and protects against radiation, and sand scavenges for nitric oxide.

    Diphenhydramine

    I remember hearing that diphenhydramine causes a shift in memorization that prioritizes positive remembrances, and I have personally found this to be accurate, but I'm unable to find a source, so this remains anecdotal. Also allow me to note that, despite the initial grogginess and lack of performance brought on by cyproheptadine, my memory and ability to reason critically substantially improved. Thyroid also likely assisted in this, probably to a greater extent.

    Diphenhydramine has weak serotonin binding affinities at higher doses, whih makes it behave like a low-dose SSRI; not ideal whatsoever. Additionally, excipients tend to be pretty awful with OTC products. Here's an interesting study for the sedation of diphenhydramine to wear off after 4 days.
    L-Theanine
    Apparently, theanine does lower histamine levels. It also lowers serotonin and raises dopamine.
    Theanine both raises dopamine and lowers serotonin. It also lowers cortisol. The nootropic effects of l-theanine, along with the gabergic and anti-cortisol effects makes it the perfect complement to caffeine for any user. It's one of the most advantageous substances on earth due to it's extremely low toxicity.

    Here's a study showing increased GABA concentrations, there also may be a risk for increased serotonin levels.

    Chlorcyclizine

    Here's some information on alternative anti-serotonin drugs, including chlorocyclizine. As said by haidut, clemastine seems particularly interesting for its anti-serotonergic proroperties. I can't find much information of chlorocyclizine and dopaminergic activity.

    Some wisdom by haidut:
     
  2. Peata

    Peata Member

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    I didn't see l-Theanine on the list, but I believe that's another one.
     
  3. NathanK

    NathanK Member

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    I actually dont mind the mild dopamine suppression. I feel a little less impulsive (which isnt always a great thing) and more cooler/calmer. Cypro really is amazing on a lot of levels

    You have to think the reason is Ray is more pro dopamine is because it directly antagonizes serotonin, but if cypro is lowering serotonin to a greater degree then it doesnt hold as much weight.
     
  4. Peata

    Peata Member

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    Yes, if what I had was mild dopamine suppression on it, then it didn't seem to do me any harm. I felt more positive, focused and calm.
     
  5. jagvel24

    jagvel24 Member

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    Supplmenting with Macuna purins with cypro can be a safe way to boost dopamine.
     
  6. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Good point, but I'm a college student. I need the buzz to learn Chinese.
     
  7. paper_clips43

    paper_clips43 Member

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  8. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    I've had urticaria since my teens,cold air brought it out etc.
    Members of family have some sort of histamine issue also ,my nephew has mastocytosis .

    Theanine is working well for me. Clearing grains out of my diet is proving very positive, if I introduce them anyway at all I get constipated and I feel agitated. This is a ****88 up epiphany of sorts to make at my age. I get dry skin and slight itching from one biscuit since using Peats guidelines and cleaning myself up biologically, I use to survive on pastas,oats ,etc.

    It seems if you push through with more grains you might get rid of the constipation but it doesn't take away from the observations I have made personally. Without grains ,no constipation,dry skin or agitation.

    I notice an ampethamine like effect from things that can increase it directly or indirectly, I thought Thiamine was great but after Getting used to symptoms of increased stress substances that offer instant memory regurgition I'm starting to thing I was mistaken.

    Thiamine makes me fluent and I did like it but the jury is out on it for me, it can increase histamine and cause mast cells to de -granulate , I will continue to explore it.
    Does anybody know that energy and verbal fluency you get from thiamine like some other stress reactions,like hypomania symptom? I'm guessing in histamine sensitive this can be an issue?
    you can answer and want to answer any question with an overload of info? Theanine doesn't do this for me, I'm more inclined to listen clearly realise I don't need to answer everything?
    I'm guessing this is a more coherent behaviour?

    DMSO does something similar to me, I definitely get a histamine response on the skin.
     
  9. jyb

    jyb Member

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    What about cypro with theanine to prevent the anti-dopamine side effect? Wouldn't be surprised if some users of this forum have tried that combination. I am not sure if theanine is sufficiently pro-dopamine. I've been liking cypro for a long time now, but have not tested theanine a whole lot probably because I didn't notice much.
     
  10. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    Cypro works great ,the next day my pulse is right up and mentally I have a quiet mind, problem is the restless leg comes in if I continue it.
    That's a great idea with theanine and Cypro, the only thing is I don't want Cypro to become regular routine, I was thinking a cleaner source of vitamin E to keep estrogen at bay, theanine seems to keep serotonin and histamine in check for me.

    I do notice the deeper breathing with Cypro is easier to maintain under stress, it's probably because it keeps estrogen at bay on top of the rest.

    Aspirin is great here also for all stress response but I do notice a slight dopamine effect like Cypro with regular use, definitely breathing deeper on aspirin, blood thinning is also there for me though with regular use.

    With aspirin in my system I experience little effect from stressful situations, I use for big days or at the end of a big day before sleep. I would use vitamins E instead of aspirin if I can get a purer source, does it matter though because E can also thin the blood?
     
  11. haidut

    haidut Member

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    I would also add all of the ergot-derivative drugs here as well. They are all histamine antagonists on their own.
    Striking differences of action of lisuride stereoisomers at histamine H1 receptors. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...High affinity of 8S-lisuride and low affinity of 8R-lisuride was also estimated for gpH(1)Rs and hH(1)Rs in radioligand binding studies. The 1-allylated derivative of 8S-lisuride, 1-allyl-8S-lisuride, was equipotent with its parent compound (pD(2) 7.7) and showed enhanced efficacy in guinea pig ileum and at recombinant gpH(1)Rs in GTPase studies (E (max) 53%, 32%). Other antiparkinsionian drugs such as 8S-terguride, pergolide, cabergoline and bromocriptine displayed lower affinities for H(1)Rs than 8S-lisuride. In conclusion, our results show that the antiparkinsonian drug 8S-lisuride is dramatically more potent than its epimeric counterpart 8R-lisuride in all assays used. 8S-Lisuride behaved as a partial agonist at gpH(1)Rs and as a silent antagonist at hH(1)Rs. Thus 8S-lisuride may act as an antagonist in vivo. This may be of potential importance since H(1)Rs modulate dopaminergic transmission in the brain."

    Brain-mediated protective interactions of histaminergic H2 and dopaminergic systems in rats. - PubMed - NCBI
    "...Pretreatment with dopamine agonists (bromocriptine 2.5, L-dopa 2.5, apomorphine 0.05 mg/kg i.p.) and a histamine H2 receptor antagonist (cimetidine 50.0 mg/kg i.p.) was found to greatly reduce the haemorrhagic gastric lesions induced by 15-min pylorus ligation in rats. On the other hand, pretreatment with dopamine antagonists (haloperidol 5.0, sulpiride 1.0, domperidone 5.0 mg/kg i.p.) significantly aggravated these lesions. Cimetidine markedly diminished the ulcerogenic effect of haloperidol but not that of domperidone, suggesting a brain-mediated site for the protective interaction of cimetidine and dopamine systems."

    The second study above suggests that dopaminergic drugs are H2 antagonists, or H2 antagonists are dopaminergic, or both. This matches my previous post showing that dopaminergic drugs are even more potent than H2 antagonists as gastro-protectants.
    Dopaminergic drugs treat ulcers better than acid-blockers | Ray Peat Forum
     
  12. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    I got really bad GERD from flour and grains.
    This is nuts,the body must do something while we were hammering down all the flour/starch in normal diet for years,it adapts to accommodate it, initially it works but as we age it can't adapt to it, many older generation suffer bad with GERD, no longer can adapt.

    What I have found since following Peat guidelines is it makes way more sensitive to the older habbits of diet/behavior.
    The gut is a crucial factor for anyone new to Peat I think, it took me a while to grasp this.
     
  13. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Interesting info haidut; it adds to the Peat's hollistic approach of raising metabolism. @Drareg Also, the liver. If anything, the liver regulates the bowels by controlling estrogen in the body.
     
  14. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    Is hydergine ok for histamine sensative? I'm looking for another tool?
    I'm guessing it's not a daily thing to take?
    Does it have any effect on fibrosis, heart?

    Never took LSD but Hoffer was a very intelligent being, he did live at altitude I think, he was Swiss so he would have spent time there if not his house, living to 102 is always put down to lsd, he spoke publicly about only taking it a few times as he never felt the need for more after that,it was so enlightening for him.
    There is a quote I kind find,may have been an old NY times article where he says to be careful with such stuff as you can start to thing life is just chemicals, your being/conciousness depends on the chemicals being produced within, this is something Peat has a profound insight into.
     
  15. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    Hydergine has many benefits; there's no evidence that it raises histamine. You can take it daily 1-9 mg/day. It does not carry risks of cardiac fibrosis. It's the mildest ergot derivative.
     
  16. Drareg

    Drareg Member

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    Sounds good.
    Very difficult to source,anti aging systems are out of stock, their brands fillers doesn't look too good, hard to find prescription grade.
     
  17. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    I'm really curious about ritanserin. Anhedonia never seems to go away.
     
  18. Elron

    Elron Member

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    So what would be best to control estrogen, prolactin, and serotonin? It seems cypro and bromo would do the trick, although I am not sure if that would control estrogen?
     
  19. OP
    DaveFoster

    DaveFoster Member

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    A serotonin antagonist (cypro) and a dopamine agonist (bromo) could do it, or a dopamine agonist on its own (lisuride/metergoline). I'm currently using cyproheptadine and mirtazapine with great results.
     
  20. khan

    khan Member

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    Do you use both at the same time? I have experience with both medicines but never used together. On mirtzapine I feel very angry. :)
    What is in your opinion, good medicine for ocd?
     
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