Cyproheptadine Lowers Cortisol, Endorphins, HGH, Aldosterone

[DaveFoster]

Ok why do you eat so much more then 3k kcalories then? i will lead to fat gain, it will increase the likelyhood of you consuming more PUFA and also storing the PUFA since its the first that gets store when excess fat gets stored.

The more calories I eat, the more weight I lose.

what kind of chocolate are you eating in such large quantities?

Unsweetened chocolate + cane sugar. Chocolate chip form. It was short-term.

 

[superhuman]

The more calories I eat, the more weight I lose.

That does not make sense. How do you explain that?
Not a single person has manage to prove it in studies

 

[tara]

Ok why do you eat so much more then 3k kcalories then? i will lead to fat gain, it will increase the likelyhood of you consuming more PUFA and also storing the PUFA since its the first that gets store when excess fat gets stored.

As far as I can tell, normal calories for a growing young man DaveF's age are around 3500*. There is no doubt some variation in personal needs, but 3000 might be undereating. Dave has been using some pretty strong tactics to drive up metabolism, so may well need more than average. Anyone with a significant recent history of undereating may need more at times to catch up on the deficiency (as far as I know this does not apply to DaveF).

Young men who have been undereating to the point of suppressing their metabolism will likely gain weight and fat for a while if they eat this much (but it may be helpful for health).

 

[DaveFoster]

That does not make sense. How do you explain that?
Not a single person has manage to prove it in studies

Not true; it's the metabolic effects of the foods and not their caloric density.

 

[superhuman]

As far as I can tell, normal calories for a growing young man DaveF's age are around 3500*. There is no doubt some variation in personal needs, but 3000 might be undereating. Dave has been using some pretty strong tactics to drive up metabolism, so may well need more than average. Anyone with a significant recent history of undereating may need more at times to catch up on the deficiency (as far as I know this does not apply to DaveF).

Young men who have been undereating to the point of suppressing their metabolism will likely gain weight and fat for a while if they eat this much (but it may be helpful for health).

Growing young man? im prettt sure david is older then 16-18?
I can promise you that a regular young man 20+ years old does not even come close to maintaining weight on 3500 kcals. Make that 2500 and that is normal. Then you can add some if he is working out and all that.

When you say undereating, what exactly are you reffering to ? Ray has said in many interviews and to me by email that you can loose ALOT of fat if you want while still provide enough nurishment. So if you mean undereating as in not getting enough nutrition that may be correct, but that just means you are eating shitty foods. If you are referring to undereating as in loosing fat/weight like most RP people/followers do, then you are wrong. Like RP have said and like many others. If you are not underweight which i guess not alot of people are, gaining fat is the worst you can do for your body and your health. It will not provide any benefits.

RP has said that the only reason the ingested PUFA will not cause alot of harm is when its burned off right away. If you eat in calorie excess, all the PUFA you eat will then go to storage first because the body prefers to burn saturated fat and sugar first and store the poison PUFA. And unnless you are giving yourself food from the lab, you have no chance of getting no PUFA esp if you eat moderate intake of fat, like Dave does with cacao and all that.

Undereating to the point of big supression of metabolic rate you really have to starve yourself. Remember that when you loose weight and become a smaller version of yourself your metabolic rate will also lower because you have less mass wich means less calories to function. Unnless you do weight training and maintain or even build some muscle.

 

[superhuman]

Not true; it's the metabolic effects of the foods and not their caloric density.

And you can prove that how?
The only things that will stimulate metabolic rate is calcium and coconut oil in terms of increasing metabolic rate. Salt and protein will also do it and sugar can also stimulate it. But we are talking about an increase of say 300-500 kcals a day if your lucky.
So you will have a hard time proving what you just said, because no one has ever done it and that includes ray

 

[DaveFoster]

@superhuman

The increase is greater than the amount of calories preferred for fat storage, and it proportionally maintains that window the more calories that you increase.

If you eat 50 g coconut oil, let's say that it promotes cellular respiration to consume more calories than (50x9) = 450 calories. Let's say 500 calories worth of energy expenditure.

The difference is 50 calories.

If you eat 100 g coconut oil, let's say that it promotes cellular respiration to consume more calories than (100x9) = 900 calories. Let's say 1,000 calories worth of energy expenditure.

The difference is 100 calories.


The proportional difference remains the same, but the absolute difference widens as the quantity increases.

 

[superhuman]

@superhuman

The increase is greater than the amount of calories preferred for fat storage, and it proportionally maintains that window the more calories that you increase.

If you eat 50 g coconut oil, let's say that it promotes cellular respiration to consume more calories than (50x9) = 450 calories. Let's say 500 calories worth of energy expenditure.

The difference is 50 calories.

If you eat 100 g coconut oil, let's say that it promotes cellular respiration to consume more calories than (100x9) = 900 calories. Let's say 1,000 calories worth of energy expenditure.

The difference is 100 calories.


The proportional difference remains the same, but the absolute difference widens as the quantity increases.

I am sorry but this is just some theory that you are making up on the spot and wishfull thinking.

Show me anything that proves this.

 

[tara]

Growing young man? im prettt sure david is older then 16-18?

Young adults keep growing and maturing up to about 25 years (if they are well nourished) I think DaveF has said he's younger than that, but I might have got him mixed up with someone else. I remember thinking that might have something to do with feeling bullet-proof. :) Maybe he will confirm? Hi Dave, we are talking about you, but not behind your back. :)
If over 25, 3000 is roughly normal. Would vary a bit by height, activity levels, etc.

Not in a direct response to a question about his, but Peat has mentioned 3000 calories as an average amount of total calories, when talking about other things, like protein requirements. He wasn't specially talking about young adults.

I can promise you that a regular young man 20+ years old does not even come close to maintaining weight on 3500 kcals. Make that 2500 and that is normal. Then you can add some if he is working out and all that.

A young man of 20 should not be maintaining weight, he should be growing and maturing - broadening and strengthening skeleton, etc.

That 3000 number for adult men is based on what non-dieting men actually eat (studied by double-labelled water method). Not what restrictive dieters eat while maintaining weight, and not what non-dieters say they eat. On average people tend to skew their self-reports in the direction of what they think they are supposed to eat. There are a number of studies demonstrating this. There are lots of studies showing 2500 is normal for adult men, based on self-reports. Most of them are likely systematically underestimating. Young growing adults need a bit more, hence the 3500 estimate.

When you say undereating, what exactly are you reffering to ? Ray has said in many interviews and to me by email that you can loose ALOT of fat if you want while still provide enough nurishment. So if you mean undereating as in not getting enough nutrition that may be correct, but that just means you are eating shitty foods. If you are referring to undereating as in loosing fat/weight like most RP people/followers do, then you are wrong. Like RP have said and like many others. If you are not underweight which i guess not alot of people are, gaining fat is the worst you can do for your body and your health. It will not provide any benefits.

Once fully grown, what I mean by under-eating is providing less energy than it takes to run a healthy body - maintenance, repair, all systems humming along as they should, including digestion, hormones, nervous system etc. While growing, under-eating would mean eating less calories than what is needed to support growth and development optimally.

Ray has said in many interviews and to me by email that you can loose ALOT of fat if you want while still provide enough nurishment. So if you mean undereating as in not getting enough nutrition that may be correct, but that just means you are eating shitty foods. If you are referring to undereating as in loosing fat/weight like most RP people/followers do, then you are wrong.

There may well be situations where calorie-restriction for fat loss may be useful for some people for a limited period of time. In such cases, I agree that making sure to get the rest of one's nutritional needs met would probably be a really good idea, and may be quite workable as Peat has said to you.

But you almost sound as though you think everybody should be losing fat all the time?! No-one should be losing fat all the time - that would be clearly unsustainable, both from a theoretical PoV and an empirical one. Fortunately, most people's bodies refuse this - in places where there is a choice.
Some people have higher health priorities than losing fat. And some people are severely undernourished and would probably be better off with a bit more.

If you are not underweight which i guess not alot of people are, gaining fat is the worst you can do for your body and your health. It will not provide any benefits.

That's a very strong claim. Is it just a theory someone has made up? As far as I can tell there is not much empirical support for it. Have you seen the threads Haidut has posted related to the so-called 'obesity paradox'?
How would you know what someone's optimal healthy weight would be, and what would count as overweight? Would you be going by the pronouncements of the weight-loss industry-dominated POO (Panel on Obesity), etc? Some other criteria?

As far as I know, optimal fat-size varies from person to person like various other parameters, like height and nose width. Fat also increases in response to some kinds of stresses, but this may sometimes be protective rather than causal. The lowest mortality rates occur for people in the so-called 'overweight' category. That suggests to me that there are worse things for most people's health than being 'overweight'.

That doesn't mean I think carrying large amounts of unnecessary extra fat is generally ideal for most people. I don't. But I think for most people there are worse things than a bit of fat. Chronically not supplying enough energy to run the system is probably one of them. Negative social judgments by other people and consequent isolation and stress would also likely be among them (given that social isolation is one of the most significant risk factors for health).

RP has said that the only reason the ingested PUFA will not cause alot of harm is when its burned off right away. If you eat in calorie excess, all the PUFA you eat will then go to storage first because the body prefers to burn saturated fat and sugar first and store the poison PUFA. And unnless you are giving yourself food from the lab, you have no chance of getting no PUFA esp if you eat moderate intake of fat, like Dave does with cacao and all that.

I'm not in favour of eating an excess of calories over a prolonged period. I'm in favour of eating what the body needs. An appetite that hasn't been messed with is generally well designed to figure that out, if suitable food is available. Most people who don't diet maintain a pretty stable weight - ie on average they eat about as much energy as they burn - ie not excess. The body has it's ways of regulating to maintain a stable weight, and they are not all in our deliberate control. There is generally a tendency towards a very slight gradual increase in weight up to middle-age/early old-age, then a gradual decline into old age. Given that elderly people are more at risk if they are underweight, being a little larger going into it may not be all bad.

If you eat in calorie excess, all the PUFA you eat will then go to storage first because the body prefers to burn saturated fat and sugar first and store the poison PUFA. And unnless you are giving yourself food from the lab, you have no chance of getting no PUFA esp if you eat moderate intake of fat, like Dave does with cacao and all that.

Dave says he is not gaining fat. I assume he is not eating in excess of his needs at the moment.
I agree with you that eating more PUFA than one can avoid is not likely good for health, based on Peat's writing.

Undereating to the point of big supression of metabolic rate you really have to starve yourself.

I'm sure there are ways to reduce risk of suppressing metabolism while restricting calories. If you undereat for a long time and don't suppress metabolism, the energy-deficit still has to be made up from somewhere, and some of that is usually from proteins in organs.
If someone needs 3500 - 4000k, and they eat 2500, that is a significant deficit. During the growing years, that can hinder full physical maturity. I would expect a prolonged 1000 calorie deficit at any age is likely to have some detrimental effects for most people. The standard medical view doesn't recognise suppressed metabolism until it is quite extreme.

Remember that when you loose weight and become a smaller version of yourself your metabolic rate will also lower because you have less mass wich means less calories to function.

Yes.

Unnless you do weight training and maintain or even build some muscle.

Yes.
How do you make sure to maintain or build other organs while in deficit? Gut? Immune system?

 

[Blossom]

Dave said here that he is a teenage guy-
Any younger people have experience with DHEA/Pregnenolone? | Ray Peat Forum

 

[DaveFoster]

I am sorry but this is just some theory that you are making up on the spot and wishfull thinking.

Show me anything that proves this.

Uncoupling protein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thermogenin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2,4-Dinitrophenol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diet effects on membrane phospholipid fatty acids and mitochondrial function in BHE rats. - PubMed - NCBI

 

[TheHound]

The more calories I eat, the more weight I lose.

Unsweetened chocolate + cane sugar. Chocolate chip form. It was short-term.

what brand of chocolate?

 

[DaveFoster]

what brand of chocolate?

Local brand. Chocolate chips; nothing except unsweetened chocolate + cane sugar.

 

[superhuman]

Uncoupling protein - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Thermogenin - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

2,4-Dinitrophenol - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Diet effects on membrane phospholipid fatty acids and mitochondrial function in BHE rats. - PubMed - NCBI

Thats true, but thats DNP and T3 wich has nothing to do with food. Its extra supplements that will make this happen.
You rely on food and you will never ever come close to uncoupling with food vs what DNP can do or T3. So my word still stands.
You can do some with food, like some % increase but thats not much.

 

[DaveFoster]

Thats true, but thats DNP and T3 wich has nothing to do with food. Its extra supplements that will make this happen.
You rely on food and you will never ever come close to uncoupling with food vs what DNP can do or T3. So my word still stands.
You can do some with food, like some % increase but thats not much.

By lowering intestinal inflammation by avoiding tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine-rich proteins, eliminating starch, and by introducing 2-4 TBSP coconut oil per day, you can drop between 3-6% body fat.

 

[superhuman]

By lowering intestinal inflammation by avoiding tryptophan, methionine, and cysteine-rich proteins, eliminating starch, and by introducing 2-4 TBSP coconut oil per day, you can drop between 3-6% body fat.

Ok so you say by eating/drinking milk,gelatin,cheese,shrimp,fruit,coca cola,sugar/candy, coconut oil and getting 7000 kcals from that when you are just a regular guy that maintains weight on 3000 kcal from regular food, you will drop fat?
That has never ever been proven, and how on earth would that happen? what would happen to the excess fat and sugar calories then?

 

[DaveFoster]

Ok so you say by eating/drinking milk,gelatin,cheese,shrimp,fruit,coca cola,sugar/candy, coconut oil and getting 7000 kcals from that when you are just a regular guy that maintains weight on 3000 kcal from regular food, you will drop fat?
That has never ever been proven, and how on earth would that happen? what would happen to the excess fat and sugar calories then?

Don't be autistic. Just because something doesn't have a double-blind peer-reviewed study to back it does not prove falsity.

Cheese will not help you drop fat; the other things will, assuming skim milk.

 

[superhuman]

Don't be autistic. Just because something doesn't have a double-blind peer-reviewed study to back it does not prove falsity.

Cheese will not help you drop fat; the other things will, assuming skim milk.

Well you have to prove with something. You say is not ok so ure talking about low fat/no fat and i can agree w that. But you say chocolate etc which is loaded w fat. Still no fat/low fat eating 5-8k kcals when maintenance is 3k i still cant believe without any proof

 

[DaveFoster]

Well you have to prove with something. You say is not ok so ure talking about low fat/no fat and i can agree w that. But you say chocolate etc which is loaded w fat. Still no fat/low fat eating 5-8k kcals when maintenance is 3k i still cant believe without any proof

It was probably water due to lowered estrogen.

 

[superhuman]

It was probably water due to lowered estrogen.

Im not trying th be a ****, but claims like those need to be backed up somehow. Because else people will run with it and if the information is wrong they will blame RP or whatever