Trying To Achieve And Maintain Supraphysiological Levels Of Androgens Log

[Lucifel]

I will be starting this protocol next monday. The rest of my supplements just arrived today, so this weekend I will be going to the market to get the things from my diet.
I should have put 5ar-androgens instead of just androgens. I'm more interested in strenght than size, and DHT can provide me that, plus all the protective and androgenic effects.
Testosterone don't interest me that much and it seems much harder to maintain in supraphysiological levels, so I don't wanna go too much above range on this one. 1100-1500 ng/dl seems doable. I can probably push a little more on DHT.

 

[WestCoaster]

If you're not sleeping well, I suspect your Testosterone is low, or lower than it should be. Many people equate high T levels to aggression when in actuality it's equated to a nice calm effect feeling. Cortisol opposes Testosterone, as one rises, the other falls. Low Testosterone can cause a Cortisol surge which drags up blood sugar regardless of whether or not your blood sugar needs to rise. Cortisol's chief function is to pull up blood sugar, so when someone's blood sugar gets too low (and they aren't adapted at burning ketones), cortisol steps in to mobilize glucose quickly to get energy levels up. This usually involves eating away at muscle tissue to get the extra glucose unless adequate glucose is already floating around in the blood, which isn't likely the case because the blood sugar tanked.

Now I suspect if someone's blood sugar is normal or even on the high side, AND, cortisol gets secreted (like if they drink coffee) pushing more glucose into the cells, a person can get an elated euphoric feeling which I've seen many times with people who drink coffee when clearly their energy levels don't need it.

Now if you're experiencing insomnia with little sleep, Testosterone drastically rises and falls with every hour gained or lost in sleep. You may very well be running on pure cortisol most of the time with your Testosterone being suppressed. I highly suspect you're running on pure cortisol at night which is preventing your sleep giving you that euphoric feeling which would tell me your blood sugar is probably already fairly high to begin with. High blood sugar isn't equated to high Testosterone, it's in fact quite the opposite due to insulin resistance created by higher blood sugar. How long ago was it where you actually checked your Test levels where they were in the mid 500's? T levels drastically rise and fall throughout the day given environmental factors, competitions, but the most notable is sleep length and quality. Your levels may range at 550 say today, but you sleep bad tonight due to insomnia, your T levels tomorrow could very well be between 100-200

Remember, Testosterone is equated to a calm confident effect, not "i'm ready to tackle the world effect" that's adrenals. Testosterone helps to mobilize blood glucose effectively for uptake in the tissues creating a nice clockwork effect in the body as we were designed to have. Trying to up the T levels through an exogenous means in the presence of a bad diet where eating foods that cause a sharp rise or decline in blood sugar can easily cause whatever glucose is sitting in the blood to get mobilized and used quickly causing a cause sharp crash with no means for energy production if the body is not efficient at using ketones. And as you know, people who have low blood sugar can get very angry, irritable, and violent, so as others described who've taken Test (roid rage), or DHEA who want to argue and fight everyone in site, it's a sign of low blood sugar, not high Testosterone. The term "Hangry" is there for a reason, low blood sugar can turn people into demons if their blood sugar tanks. And as people on this forum should know very well, when blood sugar is low, Cortisol pulls it up as that is it's chief function. Cortisol will push Testosterone down. Your euphoric feeling I'm almost certain is you're causing a cortisol surge at night causing your blood sugar to rise to higher levels giving you the euphoric feeling. Dont confuse this with epic levels of high blood sugar, that comes with a different terrible feeling. We are designed to operate in a blood sugar range. The higher end of that range we feel great (like we should during the day). Then there is the more stabilized range where cortisol is lower, and Test is higher, this should be at night.

 

[PUTFOT]

@WestCoaster I always slept good even with 11keto. This started a few days ago. I think the 11keto is adding up in my system and lowering e/cortisol too much.

If you've read my earlier comments, I'm very calm. More likely low cortisol than high.

Gelatin right before sleeping helped me fall asleep easy yesterday.

 

[PUTFOT]

Damn think estrogen got knocked down too low.

Slight knee pain when walking
Impaired cognitive function, couldn't even communicate with my date
Joyless
No more euphoric feelings, just blank feelings 24/7
Lightheaded occasionally

@sladerunner69 @encerent @haidut @DaveFoster

Sound like low estrogen? Don't know what else it can be considering I barely have a mg of water on me. A week ago I was feeling super duper good. Just 2 drops of 11keto daily for 3-4 weeks must've knocked down my e too low.

 

[Constatine]

Damn think estrogen got knocked down too low.

Slight knee pain when walking
Impaired cognitive function, couldn't even communicate with my date
Joyless
No more euphoric feelings, just blank feelings 24/7
Lightheaded occasionally

@sladerunner69 @encerent @haidut @DaveFoster

Sound like low estrogen? Don't know what else it can be considering I barely have a mg of water on me. A week ago I was feeling super duper good. Just 2 drops of 11keto daily for 3-4 weeks must've knocked down my e too low.

I personally think thats due to low cortisol not estrogen, I had this symptoms too after taking 11-keto too long. It builds up in your system considering it has such a long half life.

 

[PUTFOT]

I personally think thats due to low cortisol not estrogen, I had this symptoms too after taking 11-keto too long. It builds up in your system considering it has such a long half life.

What other symptoms did you have? Did you find the "sweet spot" dose? Maybe pansterone can help with the too low cortisol/estrogen. But then it increases t dht even more so will supress e and cortisol more.

 

[sladerunner69]

Damn think estrogen got knocked down too low.

Slight knee pain when walking
Impaired cognitive function, couldn't even communicate with my date
Joyless
No more euphoric feelings, just blank feelings 24/7
Lightheaded occasionally

@sladerunner69 @encerent @haidut @DaveFoster

Sound like low estrogen? Don't know what else it can be considering I barely have a mg of water on me. A week ago I was feeling super duper good. Just 2 drops of 11keto daily for 3-4 weeks must've knocked down my e too low.

Sounds similar to waht I experienced on 5+ drops androsterone, 8 drops pansterone, plus all the vitamins and oher things and in general jsut too many anti-stress supps

 

[BastiFuntasty]

You could add things like Tongcat ali, tribulus and nettle root to the mix or even instead of dhea preg.

 

[Soren]

Careful you don't overdo it. At the age of 18 you probably have a very high amount of androgens already and should not really rely too much on supplementing accept for a few basics.

I overdid it in the past and drove my estrogen levels too low and it crushed my libido.

 

[bdawg]

Hello everyone,

18yr male here. I found about Peat on the AM forum, and became pretty interested on his contradictory views. After reading countless topics, here I am doing my own and anxious to apply everything that I gathered.
I will be doing some experiments to see how far can I push my androgens with a few steroids/supplements and of course, lifestyle and diet changes.




What I plan to do:

Mon:

- Androsterone + Pansterone (3 drops each)

Tur:

- Vitamin E from HealtNatura 1200mg

Wed:

- Pregnenolone 30-50mg in divided doses

Repeat


Everyday:

- 1 gallon of skimmed chocolate milk
- 1 and a half quarter of oj with plenty of sugar and salt
- 1oz of liver with a cup of grape juice
- ~300g sugar
- Niacinamide (between 1 and 3 grams)
- Aspirin (between 500 mg and 2000mg)
- Taurine (1-4g)
- Sodium bicarbonate (1 tbsp)
- Coconut oil (1 tbsp)
- Collagen (4 teaspoons)
- Vitamin K2 (10mg, 4 being on testes)
- Plenty of sunlight and redlight (will focus more on thyroid and testes)
- Cypro (2-4mg)
- Will try to get some green broth just in case the k2 doesn't cover the blood thinning effects of Aspirin and E.



Don't have bloodtests, but T was at mid 500's last time I checked. It's curious, I've been working out again since November and looks like I have been gaining weight fairly easy and almost none of it seems to be fat (gaining something like 1.5kg every week. Started at 55kg and now at 66kg. Definition is still about the same, so probably not water weight either. Probably glycogen + bone mass + muscle mass)

If everything goes as planned, T should pass the 1000's with this protocol. This diet of mine is also low fat/pufa (3g), so androgens will probably increase even further when pufa is minimum.

Estrogen levels will probably be crushed while following this, but I'm doing nofap/sex, so this shouldn't be a problem. We will see about the joint problems if/when they appear.


Would appreciate the 2c of anyone with experiences to share.

Going for a similar objective to you, i use leg hair as a proxy for DHT to measure progress. Keenly following your progress :)

 

[bdawg]

I see, so you don't believe elevated androgens is a risk factor here.

Well Ray Peat has written that testosterone should not be too hgih because it is implicated in some weird conditions as wella s its easy propensity to be converted into estrogen. Getting naturally high testosterone is a tall order in itself and this proably isnt a concern but when using hormones or steroids it is an important note.

Quite a few posters here have complained about feeling irritable and anhedonic from taking too much androsterone or dht.

Also, speaking just out of personal experience, once you have been playing around with DHEA for a couple years(especially topical) you will know that you don't need to take a large dose, not even a moderate dose, really just a tiny dose, to feel an envigorating effect. This substnce in particular is HIGHLY stimulating, and will cut you off your chain if you use more than 5mg topically. A year ago I was using 10-15mg in a topical solution and Im ashamed to say I turned into a madman. I even have low dht and testosterone from finasteride use. But I was so energized and irritable I was getting into fights at clubs and at school, and shouting insults at anyone who rubbed me a little bit the wrong way. It was really bad, and Im actually thankful I got suspended for a year from university for getting into too many arguments with teachers and students, highlighting the error in my ways. It really came down to taking too much DHEA (and being fed up with my struggling health situations as years of finasteride woes) and these days I never take mroe than 2 drops of pansterone at a time, which is 1mg (somewhat amplified by dmso factor, so maybe that 1mg=4 or 5mg oral). A lot fo people responded here saying I felt irritable because of estrogen conversion but that is simply not the case, I ahve enver experienced such irritability on estrogen, in fact I think it comes form very low estrogen and cortisol and the effect of DHEA itself being highly stimulating. DHT can also cause irritability as well as testosterone. Plus Iw as taking every known estrogen blocker in peat land, aspirin, mushrooms, coconut oil, vitamins a-k2, the whole kit and kaboodle.

My rats been taking oral DHEA 100mg for 200 days straight. Some days also pansterone 8 drops

No estrogenic sides warned about and not much stimulation. Also no suppression coming out of it, but no bloodwork.. just going by feeling.

Seems like everyone is different in how they react to hormones

 

[sladerunner69]

My rats been taking oral DHEA 100mg for 200 days straight. Some days also pansterone 8 drops

No estrogenic sides warned about and not much stimulation. Also no suppression coming out of it, but no bloodwork.. just going by feeling.

Seems like everyone is different in how they react to hormones

thats absurd wow

 

[sladerunner69]

I personally think thats due to low cortisol not estrogen, I had this symptoms too after taking 11-keto too long. It builds up in your system considering it has such a long half life.

Are you taking andro or 11keto still? What supplements are you currently taking?

 

[Lucifel]

If you're not sleeping well, I suspect your Testosterone is low, or lower than it should be. Many people equate high T levels to aggression when in actuality it's equated to a nice calm effect feeling. Cortisol opposes Testosterone, as one rises, the other falls. Low Testosterone can cause a Cortisol surge which drags up blood sugar regardless of whether or not your blood sugar needs to rise. Cortisol's chief function is to pull up blood sugar, so when someone's blood sugar gets too low (and they aren't adapted at burning ketones), cortisol steps in to mobilize glucose quickly to get energy levels up. This usually involves eating away at muscle tissue to get the extra glucose unless adequate glucose is already floating around in the blood, which isn't likely the case because the blood sugar tanked.

Now I suspect if someone's blood sugar is normal or even on the high side, AND, cortisol gets secreted (like if they drink coffee) pushing more glucose into the cells, a person can get an elated euphoric feeling which I've seen many times with people who drink coffee when clearly their energy levels don't need it.

Now if you're experiencing insomnia with little sleep, Testosterone drastically rises and falls with every hour gained or lost in sleep. You may very well be running on pure cortisol most of the time with your Testosterone being suppressed. I highly suspect you're running on pure cortisol at night which is preventing your sleep giving you that euphoric feeling which would tell me your blood sugar is probably already fairly high to begin with. High blood sugar isn't equated to high Testosterone, it's in fact quite the opposite due to insulin resistance created by higher blood sugar. How long ago was it where you actually checked your Test levels where they were in the mid 500's? T levels drastically rise and fall throughout the day given environmental factors, competitions, but the most notable is sleep length and quality. Your levels may range at 550 say today, but you sleep bad tonight due to insomnia, your T levels tomorrow could very well be between 100-200

Remember, Testosterone is equated to a calm confident effect, not "i'm ready to tackle the world effect" that's adrenals. Testosterone helps to mobilize blood glucose effectively for uptake in the tissues creating a nice clockwork effect in the body as we were designed to have. Trying to up the T levels through an exogenous means in the presence of a bad diet where eating foods that cause a sharp rise or decline in blood sugar can easily cause whatever glucose is sitting in the blood to get mobilized and used quickly causing a cause sharp crash with no means for energy production if the body is not efficient at using ketones. And as you know, people who have low blood sugar can get very angry, irritable, and violent, so as others described who've taken Test (roid rage), or DHEA who want to argue and fight everyone in site, it's a sign of low blood sugar, not high Testosterone. The term "Hangry" is there for a reason, low blood sugar can turn people into demons if their blood sugar tanks. And as people on this forum should know very well, when blood sugar is low, Cortisol pulls it up as that is it's chief function. Cortisol will push Testosterone down. Your euphoric feeling I'm almost certain is you're causing a cortisol surge at night causing your blood sugar to rise to higher levels giving you the euphoric feeling. Dont confuse this with epic levels of high blood sugar, that comes with a different terrible feeling. We are designed to operate in a blood sugar range. The higher end of that range we feel great (like we should during the day). Then there is the more stabilized range where cortisol is lower, and Test is higher, this should be at night.

My levels were measured on the middle of last year, when I was still in major depression, deficient in vitamin D, and in chronic fasting and caloric restriction. They are probably a bit higher now. Sleep is good overall but I still have to wake up to urinate. No cold feet/hands or adrenaline response whatsoever. I wonder if taurine will improve this...

Yeah, before knowing Peat, I always thought that high testosterone meant a more agressive and dominant behavior, but now I know that this is more related to the stress hormones.

You could add things like Tongcat ali, tribulus and nettle root to the mix or even instead of dhea preg.

Yeah, I will be using some preg powder from health natura, too. I won't use tribulus/tongkat because they will probably boost my libido and this will make nofap harder. I've heard that nettle root lowers SHBG, but I don't know if this is a good thing yet.

Careful you don't overdo it. At the age of 18 you probably have a very high amount of androgens already and should not really rely too much on supplementing accept for a few basics.

I overdid it in the past and drove my estrogen levels too low and it crushed my libido.

My androgens probably aren't ideal yet due to the chronic stress that I experienced for some years. Libido is something that I don't want for now. What concerns me about too low estrogen/cortisol levels is the joint pain reported by several users. Did too low estrogen/cortisol affected your joints ?

Going for a similar objective to you, i use leg hair as a proxy for DHT to measure progress. Keenly following your progress :)

Thanks man. If we are going by leg hair, I'm sure that I'm some kind of Wolverine 2.0, as my leg is full of them.

 

[A.R]

My levels were measured on the middle of last year, when I was still in major depression, deficient in vitamin D, and in chronic fasting and caloric restriction. They are probably a bit higher now. Sleep is good overall but I still have to wake up to urinate. No cold feet/hands or adrenaline response whatsoever. I wonder if taurine will improve this...

Yeah, before knowing Peat, I always thought that high testosterone meant a more agressive and dominant behavior, but now I know that this is more related to the stress hormones.



Yeah, I will be using some preg powder from health natura, too. I won't use tribulus/tongkat because they will probably boost my libido and this will make nofap harder. I've heard that nettle root lowers SHBG, but I don't know if this is a good thing yet.



My androgens probably aren't ideal yet due to the chronic stress that I experienced for some years. Libido is something that I don't want for now. What concerns me about too low estrogen/cortisol levels is the joint pain reported by several users. Did too low estrogen/cortisol affected your joints ?



Thanks man. If we are going by leg hair, I'm sure that I'm some kind of Wolverine 2.0, as my leg is full of them.

I would definitely be starting Taurine/Glycine and maybe even Lysine on a daily basis, in order to help the liver heal from chronic fasting/caloric restriction. These amino's along with weekly liver should help your body make much better use of the supplements part of your experiment.

Check this thread out if you haven't already
TAURINE The Key To Restoring Metabolic Function?

 

[Soren]

My androgens probably aren't ideal yet due to the chronic stress that I experienced for some years. Libido is something that I don't want for now. What concerns me about too low estrogen/cortisol levels is the joint pain reported by several users. Did too low estrogen/cortisol affected your joints ?

I did get quite bad joint pain and morning foot pain that was debilitating.

If you're goal is to get stronger and build muscle you will be shooting yourself in the foot by dropping estrogen and cortisol too low. You're body does need estrogen and cortisol, having chronically high levels of these things are bad but having very low levels is also bad. You say you don't want libido at the moment, I don't think you fully appreciate what it is like mentally and physically to not have a libido. For many people it completely drains them of life, purpose and mental drive. Even if you do not want to pursue anything physical at the moment not having a libido is a sign that something is seriously out of place with your body. Better than not having a libido is to redirect the energy from a high libido into something else.

 

[Constatine]

Are you taking andro or 11keto still? What supplements are you currently taking?

I'm taking a one month break from all steroids. Haven't taken anything in a week.

 

[Wagner83]

I'm taking a one month break from all steroids. Haven't taken anything in a week.

Did you feel the need for a month long break because of the symptoms you mentioned earlier or for other reasons? I'm curious because you sounded like you were doing really well on them.

 

[sladerunner69]

I'm taking a one month break from all steroids. Haven't taken anything in a week.

Why did you feel the need to do that? How long have you been using various steroids for? Since 11 keto came out last august or before that?

 

[Constatine]

Why did you feel the need to do that? How long have you been using various steroids for? Since 11 keto came out last august or before that?

I just wanted to see if the steroids were actually benefiting me as I forgot what it felt like to be off them. Get a base feel. After being off them for a week I do say they were very beneficial. I've been using most steroids since last September so its been a while.