The Fate of the Traditional Female

[mostlylurking]

What’s being said is that the right circumstances don’t really exist right now. And no one is saying that career women are guaranteed good relationships, but what is being said is they are guaranteed the ability to pack up and leave if things get dodgy and they may have stricter standards (which lead to them getting better partners). Both routes can lead to fulfillment or unhappiness but one woman has the agency to change her situation while the other is kind of stuck.

People are talking in absolutes in terms for the sake of discussion. There are more than two ways to go in life for women of course. Most people fall somewhere in the middle. A family oriented lifestyle could go with a lighter career and often times it does ( I know personally I benefited from the undivided attention of my mother during my childhood but what works for some might not work for everyone).

I agree with you about the importance for a woman to have financial independence. I think that this allows for a more balanced and healthy position for both parties.

What has been left out of this conversation is the concept of the capacity for intimacy. It would be nice to believe that people get wiser and increase their capacity for intimacy and genuine appreciation for the opposite sex as they get older, but I'm not holding my breath. Real intimacy is the glue that holds the relationship together.

 

[Blossom]

I recently read this book and it was quite an eye opener on our current situation. My capacity to enjoy intimacy with my husband is increased by leaps and bounds on vacation when the background stress of working outside our home isn’t there…but that may just be me.

 

[animalcule]

What’s being said is that the right circumstances don’t really exist right now. And no one is saying that career women are guaranteed good relationships, but what is being said is they are guaranteed the ability to pack up and leave if things get dodgy and they may have stricter standards (which lead to them getting better partners). Both routes can lead to fulfillment or unhappiness but one woman has the agency to change her situation while the other is kind of stuck.

People are talking in absolutes in terms for the sake of discussion. There are more than two ways to go in life for women of course. Most people fall somewhere in the middle. A family oriented lifestyle could go with a lighter career and often times it does ( I know personally I benefited from the undivided attention of my mother during my childhood but what works for some might not work for everyone).

Well put.

 

[animalcule]

I recently read this book and it was quite an eye opener on our current situation. My capacity to enjoy intimacy with my husband is increased by leaps and bounds on vacation when the background stress of working outside our home isn’t there…but that may just be me.View attachment 54330

I remember reading that book years ago! Really liked it, agreed with the message.

I think the conversation around women working/not working is muddled by the fact that women can’t just choose to be a homemaker and then that’s that, problem solved. So the “you’d be happier at home types” just sound like they’re out of touch. It’s like, yea, ok… that would be nice. And yet: it’s difficult to achieve. And comes with risks that weren’t as great as before. And being “traditionally feminine” in your disposition can often make you less appealing to modern men, who don’t want to be saddled with the burden of supporting you, or who may think less of you for your lack of outside the home ambition.

 

[Blossom]

I remember reading that book years ago! Really liked it, agreed with the message.

I think the conversation around women working/not working is muddled by the fact that women can’t just choose to be a homemaker and then that’s that, problem solved. So the “you’d be happier at home types” just sound like they’re out of touch. It’s like, yea, ok… that would be nice. And yet: it’s difficult to achieve. And comes with risks that weren’t as great as before. And being “traditionally feminine” in your disposition can often make you less appealing to modern men, who don’t want to be saddled with the burden of supporting you, or who may think less of you for your lack of outside the home ambition.

100% agree. It’s been made virtually out of reach for many middle/working class families unfortunately.

 

[Jennifer]

I was modeled similarly. "Family hold back" was a sort of motto. It was okay to be a Christian servant inside the family. We had a huge exteneded family, so that seemed to work with seemingly a large group of people. But once we dispersed beyond the garden wall, we were preyed upon in 'you give; I take' relationships.
Eventually, the light bulb goes off that God does not want us to make peace with evil. Even though growing up, both parents would say things like, "they need it more than we do" when my stuff would get stolen or smashed." Or "pray for them."

Yes, exactly! May I ask, did learning Aikido help with overcoming the conditioning or was it something you had already achieved prior to it?

 

[Jennifer]

It takes great strength to be an empathetic person. Empathy means that you actually experience the other person's pain and have the strength to let them lean on you in times of trouble and help them get through it.

I think females come to feeling the other person's pain more naturally. I think it is tied to having intuition. So they provide empathy for their mate. If he is unable to respond in kind, the woman is inclined to think, "well, he's new at this, I'll teach him how by showing him". But the male I think tends to avoid empathy because he equates it with weakness. It isn't weakness; it requires emotional strength. Some men simply never figure that out, to their detriment.

Yes, I agree it takes great strength to be empathetic. I think empathy comes in many forms so even though it may seem like it comes more naturally to females, I think both genders are equally empathetic. Males equating empathy with weakness is likely because of what society has commonly associated empathy with, however, if I were to relate empathy to things thought to be masculine, they might see it differently. One example—protection. Men historically have been willing to risk their lives to save others. I can’t think of anything more empathetic than that. Being able to lean on someone can mean emotionally, physically and even financially—we all have different ways of showing empathy—and I think when it comes to mates, it helps to have a partner who we share a similar love language with or to respect and honor each other’s love language if they’re different. I think it also helps with intimacy.

 

[ursidae]

I remember reading that book years ago! Really liked it, agreed with the message.

I think the conversation around women working/not working is muddled by the fact that women can’t just choose to be a homemaker and then that’s that, problem solved. So the “you’d be happier at home types” just sound like they’re out of touch. It’s like, yea, ok… that would be nice. And yet: it’s difficult to achieve. And comes with risks that weren’t as great as before. And being “traditionally feminine” in your disposition can often make you less appealing to modern men, who don’t want to be saddled with the burden of supporting you, or who may think less of you for your lack of outside the home ambition.

Very well put. Might be of interest to
@Herbie
@EustaceBagge


Being "traditionally feminine" does not guarantee you won't spend ages 16-46 being passed up by men. But getting the best education and career you can achieve, even if the pursuit of those goes against your nature/deepest desires, does guarantee you'll at least have security in life.

 

[Regina]

Yes, exactly! May I ask, did learning Aikido help with overcoming the conditioning or was it something you had already achieved prior to it?

Yes. Aikido was fantastic when I had the right teacher and school.
However, there is a learning curve there too for understanding why you go with the flow. In a martial situation, stay close (until you can flee or squelch) and keep your body whole but soft (to avoid injury and be undetected). And everyone cleans the dojo and it begins with sweeping the floor. For people pleasers, this can just reinforce the doormat mentality. For resentful people, this can be indignant and they cheat (not kidding)--such as grab the broom at the last second when the teacher is looking to seem as if they were helpful.
You learn over time that the silent cleaning before class helps to leave the outside world and your ego off the mat and prepare to get in a spiritual but martial mode.
And you learn that the compliant soft body (ukemi) is martially far superior.

But the right teacher is very rare and difficult to find. And that teacher has to be aware of what is going on in his/her dojo to regulate the bullies and doormats: bring up the meeker people and help the hard-core fighters refine and channel their energy.

Overall, the body composition change projected a less preyed upon image. In only a few months, panhandlers scanned me and then skipped to the next person for money. Stuff like that. Or those annoying people with clipboards all over the city, "do you have a moment for caring about the climate?"

It was also extremely good for developing job-like patience for adversity.

Do the serotonergic normies mistake this for weakness? Of course.
They are surprised by the "disengage and ignore" response I give and continue doing whatever I was doing. They don't know what to think of person who can work insanely long hours alone taking down trees, putting in pathways and walls, creating drainage and water mgt solutions, etc....

 

[WombOfFuturity]

Reading Weininger through Kierkegaard solves this

Being "traditionally feminine" does not guarantee you won't spend ages 16-46 being passed up by men.

"Marry, and you will regret it; don’t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don’t marry, you will regret it either way."

 

[Herbie]

Reading Weininger through Kierkegaard solves this


"Marry, and you will regret it; don’t marry, you will also regret it; marry or don’t marry, you will regret it either way."

I would recommend reading Evolas critique of Weininger in the book Eros

 

[animalcule]

Yes. Aikido was fantastic when I had the right teacher and school.
However, there is a learning curve there too for understanding why you go with the flow. In a martial situation, stay close (until you can flee or squelch) and keep your body whole but soft (to avoid injury and be undetected). And everyone cleans the dojo and it begins with sweeping the floor. For people pleasers, this can just reinforce the doormat mentality. For resentful people, this can be indignant and they cheat (not kidding)--such as grab the broom at the last second when the teacher is looking to seem as if they were helpful.
You learn over time that the silent cleaning before class helps to leave the outside world and your ego off the mat and prepare to get in a spiritual but martial mode.
And you learn that the compliant soft body (ukemi) is martially far superior.

But the right teacher is very rare and difficult to find. And that teacher has to be aware of what is going on in his/her dojo to regulate the bullies and doormats: bring up the meeker people and help the hard-core fighters refine and channel their energy.

Overall, the body composition change projected a less preyed upon image. In only a few months, panhandlers scanned me and then skipped to the next person for money. Stuff like that. Or those annoying people with clipboards all over the city, "do you have a moment for caring about the climate?"

It was also extremely good for developing job-like patience for adversity.

Do the serotonergic normies mistake this for weakness? Of course.
They are surprised by the "disengage and ignore" response I give and continue doing whatever I was doing. They don't know what to think of person who can work insanely long hours alone taking down trees, putting in pathways and walls, creating drainage and water mgt solutions, etc....

Your description of your job sounds intriguing. Are you a groundskeeper or park manager?

 

[Herbie]

@ursidae Yeah people, especially women are social but living in a world of social isolation and erosion of community, being a stay at home mom could be very lonely which the husband cannot fulfil her social needs putting more need on him and becoming a burden. Being a stay at home mom is a huge risk today due to overall quality and stability of men is probably worse then older times. If they divorse the women will have a hard time to survive with low end jobs, no career especially if her family isnt strong.

If everyone works a job then it's just isolating to just be at home all the time but the affluent areas are filled with young mom's at coffee shops during the day who find community but middle class can't afford that lifestyle permanently.

Also concider the age gap between parents and siblings and divorce contributing to lack of family support.

I think people should figure out what works best for them and navigate the situation pragmatically.

Im with Peat that marriage shouldn't mean ownership of a person, people should be free and not someone's possesion which is achieveable by both sexes being financially independent.

I can imagine how horrible it would have been for women when they got stuck with a bad husband in the older times and didn't have freedom and upward mobility in career.

 

[Jennifer]

Yes. Aikido was fantastic when I had the right teacher and school.
However, there is a learning curve there too for understanding why you go with the flow. In a martial situation, stay close (until you can flee or squelch) and keep your body whole but soft (to avoid injury and be undetected). And everyone cleans the dojo and it begins with sweeping the floor. For people pleasers, this can just reinforce the doormat mentality. For resentful people, this can be indignant and they cheat (not kidding)--such as grab the broom at the last second when the teacher is looking to seem as if they were helpful.
You learn over time that the silent cleaning before class helps to leave the outside world and your ego off the mat and prepare to get in a spiritual but martial mode.
And you learn that the compliant soft body (ukemi) is martially far superior.

But the right teacher is very rare and difficult to find. And that teacher has to be aware of what is going on in his/her dojo to regulate the bullies and doormats: bring up the meeker people and help the hard-core fighters refine and channel their energy.

Overall, the body composition change projected a less preyed upon image. In only a few months, panhandlers scanned me and then skipped to the next person for money. Stuff like that. Or those annoying people with clipboards all over the city, "do you have a moment for caring about the climate?"

It was also extremely good for developing job-like patience for adversity.

Do the serotonergic normies mistake this for weakness? Of course.
They are surprised by the "disengage and ignore" response I give and continue doing whatever I was doing. They don't know what to think of person who can work insanely long hours alone taking down trees, putting in pathways and walls, creating drainage and water mgt solutions, etc....

Fascinating, and it all makes sense. Thank you for sharing, Regina. :) My mum taught me to “disengage and ignore” when I was dealing with bullies. It didn’t cause them to grow bored and quit like she intended, however, they did invest a lot of their time in me and got poor returns so there’s that. lol

 

[Jennifer]

Being "traditionally feminine" does not guarantee you won't spend ages 16-46 being passed up by men. But getting the best education and career you can achieve, even if the pursuit of those goes against your nature/deepest desires, does guarantee you'll at least have security in life.

And there’s always the option of choosing a career that aligns with their nurturing nature such as childcare, teaching or nursing. I was in childcare and it was one way of gaining security, while having an outlet to nurture.

I can imagine how horrible it would have been for women when they got stuck with a bad husband in the older times and didn't have freedom and upward mobility in career.

This. I know a few women from older generations who were in this situation. One had a husband who was unfaithful and ended up with another family on the side and the frustration and resentment of not biting the hand that fed her and her nine children led to her taking it out on the children. Talking with one, they recounted how she and her sister were whipped regularly, but never on the face so that no one would know but them, however, one time, one of the fringes on the whip had hit her face, leaving a mark, so she was whipped even more because of it. Thankfully, the mother’s children swore that they would never beat their children and they broke the cycle.

 

[Regina]

Your description of your job sounds intriguing. Are you a groundskeeper or park manager?

Haha. Nah, it just seemed like that this past year. I removed 1/2 acre of bamboo and put in a garden on our own property. The bamboo took alot of sawsall reticulating saw to get every root and rhizhome out. Then it all got flooded in hurricane Ian and I had to redo a lot of it.

Fascinating, and it all makes sense. Thank you for sharing, Regina. :) My mum taught me to “disengage and ignore” when I was dealing with bullies. It didn’t cause them to grow bored and quit like she intended, however, they did invest a lot of their time in me and got poor returns so there’s that. lol

Yes. The bullies invest an insane amount of time hyper-focused on their target. They got good results at first but they showed me what to improve.
There is an expression in aikido, "where there's a gap; there's a slap." Same in life .
It's actually a nice town. The many lovely people are just not up in anyone's grill.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

I would recommend reading Evolas critique of Weininger in the book Eros

Evola hardly has an unkind word to say about Weininger in Eros, and in fact singles him out for "special praise".
If by critique you refer to Evola's observation that

the traits that we deemed typical for the female psyche can be found in man as well as in women, particularly in regressive phases of a civilization.

then I agree in the narrow sense. However, my familiarity with Evola is limited so possibly you mean something else.

 

[Herbie]

Evola hardly has an unkind word to say about Weininger in Eros, and in fact singles him out for "special praise".
If by critique you refer to Evola's observation that

then I agree in the narrow sense. However, my familiarity with Evola is limited so possibly you mean something else.

I read Eros then got interested in Weininger because Evola referred to him so much in Eros, read him then later re read Eros, found Evola took more balanced views on Weinginer, called him a misogynist, something like that.

I totally agree with Weininger and have experienced everything he has written but I appreciate Evolas take on Weininger.