Anti-androgens For Females

[sladerunner69]

Hello, I have a question regarding anti-androgen and birth control prescriptions for women. My girlfriend is 18 and has "high androgens" which run in her family. This has a visible negative effect on her skin and hair quality, and she is also rather tall and muscular for a girl (she is a highly competitive soccer player). So the doctor has her on both birth control and spironolactone(anti-androgen) to combat her naturally high androgens. However, llately she has complained of being tired and just "out of it". I know Dr Peat doesnt approve of birth control because it is essentially an estrogen supplement... Would a progesterone supplement be just as good at both preventing pregnancy and lowering androgens? As far as the spiro goes, I know from personal experience that it can have some nasty side effects in men, but what about women? If all it does is bring her elevated testosterone/dht levels down then perhaps she should stick with it.

It's a complicated dillemna but I would appreciate any insight, especially alternatives to a birth control pill, or women who have undergone anti-androgen therapy. Thanks! :)

 

[Such_Saturation]

Absolutely, I think it's mostly chronically high cortisol which soccer at a competitive level will surely enhance. There is a cascade of effects from stress and low sugar which releases certain androgenic substances.

 

[Ben]

Yes, I was going to suggest progest-E before I even opened this thread. Androgens are "positive" hormones so I do not believe that her negative symptoms are from that, rather excessive estrogen, which occurs with elevated testosterone production. Progest-E inhibits testosterone's conversion into both DHT, a strong androgen, and estrogen. It also increases SHBG, which binds to and deactivates both testosterone and estrogen. So double whammy for testosterone, which isn't positive, but also estrogen, which is your wife's problem. And she does not have a shortage of testosterone, so that is why Progest-E would be more effective for your wife than other women.

 

[sladerunner69]

Absolutely, I think it's mostly chronically high cortisol which soccer at a competitive level will surely enhance. There is a cascade of effects from stress and low sugar which releases certain androgenic substances.

To say chronic cortisol and stresshormones will somehow lead to a rise in androgens, seems counterinuitive. Ive learned theough reading and training that endurance excercise will generally lower testosterone, unless of course it is done to an end of lower bodyfat (high bodyfat being a significant marker for lower testosterone)

 

[sladerunner69]

Yes, I was going to suggest progest-E before I even opened this thread. Androgens are "positive" hormones so I do not believe that her negative symptoms are from that, rather excessive estrogen, which occurs with elevated testosterone production. Progest-E inhibits testosterone's conversion into both DHT, a strong androgen, and estrogen. It also increases SHBG, which binds to and deactivates both testosterone and estrogen. So double whammy for testosterone, which isn't positive, but also estrogen, which is your wife's problem. And she does not have a shortage of testosterone, so that is why Progest-E would be more effective for your wife than other women.

I see... So is progest-E commonly used as a form of contraception, or only for its progesterone effects? Would you be concerned about a girl, still in her teens, using it routinely?

 

[Blossom]

She might want to have the doctor treating her check her potassium level if those side effects continue or get worse.

 

[Such_Saturation]

Absolutely, I think it's mostly chronically high cortisol which soccer at a competitive level will surely enhance. There is a cascade of effects from stress and low sugar which releases certain androgenic substances.

To say chronic cortisol and stresshormones will somehow lead to a rise in androgens, seems counterinuitive. Ive learned theough reading and training that endurance excercise will generally lower testosterone, unless of course it is done to an end of lower bodyfat (high bodyfat being a significant marker for lower testosterone)

DHEA is stimulated in this system along with cortisol, and there are some downstream things as well which mess with melanin and sexual behaviour. Also, wikipedia claims <<It is speculated that insulin, at high enough concentration, stimulates the ovarian theca cells to produce androgens. There may also be an effect of high levels of insulin to activate insulin-like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) receptor in those same cells. Again, the result is increased androgen production.>>

Androgen secretion in ectopic ACTH syndrome and in Cushing's disease: modifications before and after surgery.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11607879

Just as well, wikipedia: <<Elevated levels of total cortisol can also be due to estrogen found in oral contraceptive pills that contain a mixture of estrogen and progesterone, leading to Pseudo-Cushing's syndrome.>>

Cushing's syndrome induced by medroxyprogesterone.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... 16/?page=1

 

[4peatssake]

in my opinion, the birth control pill will do nothing but cause her more problems.
Progest E (progesterone) can be used safely for birth control. No method is 100 per cent save abstinence though.

Here is one of a number of threads where this topic' has been discussed:Progest E and Birth Control

Posted in the above thread thread:

"Estrogen increases the production of mucus in the cervix and vagina, and increases its water content and mobility. Abundant and fluid mucus has a cleaning action, eliminating bacteria and other material. Progesterone makes the mucus more viscous and less hydrophilic, and when it dominates the reproductive physiology, it effectively creates a plug in the cervix that prevents the entry of sperms.
The choice of the cervix and vagina suggests that the authors were "engineering" the experimental outcome, because the effect of progesterone on cervical mucus is very well known."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/es ... ncer.shtml


"Progesterone was known, by the early 1940s, to protect against the many toxic effects of estrogen, including abortion, but it was also known as nature's contraceptive, since it can prevent pregnancy without harmful side-effects, by different mechanisms, including prevention of sperm entry into the uterus. That is, progesterone prevents the miscarriages which result from excess estrogen (1,2), but if used before intercourse, it prevents conception, and thus is a true contraceptive, while estrogen is an abortifacient, not a contraceptive."
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/pr ... ions.shtml

This is long post by Rayser about the subject at another thread.

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=16657#p16657

Good luck to your girlfriend.

 

[Henry]

The effectiveness of progesterone as a birth control method has not been tested in well-made studies. You need very high doses to have it suppress ovulation. This is expensive and even then you dont know if it will work. After all it is the prime hormone that sustains pregnancy. I would only use it in combination with another method such as condoms. Or you might just as well just use condoms and dont pump her up with hormones of any kind.

Spironolactone can be responsible for many of the symptoms she describes.

 

[Ben]

Yes, I was going to suggest progest-E before I even opened this thread. Androgens are "positive" hormones so I do not believe that her negative symptoms are from that, rather excessive estrogen, which occurs with elevated testosterone production. Progest-E inhibits testosterone's conversion into both DHT, a strong androgen, and estrogen. It also increases SHBG, which binds to and deactivates both testosterone and estrogen. So double whammy for testosterone, which isn't positive, but also estrogen, which is your wife's problem. And she does not have a shortage of testosterone, so that is why Progest-E would be more effective for your wife than other women.

I see... So is progest-E commonly used as a form of contraception, or only for its progesterone effects? Would you be concerned about a girl, still in her teens, using it routinely?

No, progesterone is safe for men and women, the only drawback being a decrease of testosterone, but you're not worried about that. I wouldn't worry about safety at all.

When it comes to contraception, all that is required for 100% contraception is to pull out before ejaculating, and not to put it in when you have ejaculated previously. Pre-ejaculate fluid contains no sperm. You can add progest-E as a contraceptive "just in case". She has to take high doses, but there's no established guide for how high they should be. Only downside is the cost. But again, you do not really need it. Just take it slow, feel your body to the maximum, and don't ejaculate. Ejaculation gets rid of energy like dopamine which can be used to develop the prefrontal cortex and mature sexuality so it is more deep and love-based.

And Such-Saturation, it doesn't seem like this young lady has high androgen levels from health problems. She plays a sport and probably just naturally produces more, and the conversion to estrogen is causing the issues.

 

[Such_Saturation]

And Such-Saturation, it doesn't seem like this young lady has high androgen levels from health problems. She plays a sport and probably just naturally produces more, and the conversion to estrogen is causing the issues.

Well if it is known that it "runs in the family" I am brought to think that this knowledge would be from symptoms rather than from an actual test which is a modern thing. And those symptoms would be a little more encumbering than just bad skin. So that to me indicates a problem which someone would like to be able to correct, rather than something to dismiss as "natural" just because it spans more than one generation.

 

[Ben]

And Such-Saturation, it doesn't seem like this young lady has high androgen levels from health problems. She plays a sport and probably just naturally produces more, and the conversion to estrogen is causing the issues.

Well if it is known that it "runs in the family" I am brought to think that this knowledge would be from symptoms rather than from an actual test which is a modern thing. And those symptoms would be a little more encumbering than just bad skin. So that to me indicates a problem which someone would like to be able to correct, rather than something to dismiss as "natural" just because it spans more than one generation.

I never said I assumed it is natural because it spans multiple generations. That has little to do with it. What I'm saying is that her testosterone may be a harmless endocrine difference. I speculate that high production of testosterone led to high levels of estrogen for her because of the "bad skin" complaint.

My own endocrine difference is similar, I have low SHBG and therefore higher free testosterone and estrogen. I control it with vitamin A, D, E, and K. And actually, I recommend these fat soluble vitamins more for the OP's gf rather than Progest-E for now. They are much cheaper, plus you will be convinced that estrogen is the problem because these vitamins actually reduce estrogen, but raise testosterone even more. Thereby I win the argument Such is creating or trying to create. :P Testosterone boosts your gf's performance in sports, OP. And in bed, and in her career, etc. Lol.

There is such thing as too low testosterone level among women, and you can't ever be "too high", just like with men. Your health just gets better and better.

 

[sladerunner69]

Genetics clearly has something to do with it.

I realize higher testosterone is optimal for a variety of reasons, but from the perspective of a teenage girl you have to understand it could also have some undesirable effects. Her parents are very tall and she doesnt want to grow to be TOO big, and testosterone has a significant affect on bone and muscle growth. The large facial features, odor, aggressiveness that are products of male hormones are other things she could do without. I think we need to pinpoint a balance, and Im wondering if drugs are the roght way to do that.

 

[beachbum]

post 68160

And Such-Saturation, it doesn't seem like this young lady has high androgen levels from health problems. She plays a sport and probably just naturally produces more, and the conversion to estrogen is causing the issues.

Well if it is known that it "runs in the family" I am brought to think that this knowledge would be from symptoms rather than from an actual test which is a modern thing. And those symptoms would be a little more encumbering than just bad skin. So that to me indicates a problem which someone would like to be able to correct, rather than something to dismiss as "natural" just because it spans more than one generation.

I never said I assumed it is natural because it spans multiple generations. That has little to do with it. What I'm saying is that her testosterone may be a harmless endocrine difference. I speculate that high production of testosterone led to high levels of estrogen for her because of the "bad skin" complaint.

My own endocrine difference is similar, I have low SHBG and therefore higher free testosterone and estrogen. I control it with vitamin A, D, E, and K. And actually, I recommend these fat soluble vitamins more for the OP's gf rather than Progest-E for now. They are much cheaper, plus you will be convinced that estrogen is the problem because these vitamins actually reduce estrogen, but raise testosterone even more. Thereby I win the argument Such is creating or trying to create. :P Testosterone boosts your gf's performance in sports, OP. And in bed, and in her career, etc. Lol.

There is such thing as too low testosterone level among women, and you can't ever be "too high", just like with men. Your health just gets better and better.

How does vitamin d, a, k help her problem with androgens. When I take them personally I feel worse ( im female). In my opinion testosterone for women isn't bad it's just too much androgens. But then if she has estrigen dominance then wouldn't to much testosterone make more estrogen. That is what progesterone does is lower androgens and testosterone hence lowers estrogen. Just my 2 cents. Please correct me if im wrong.

 

[Peata]

Genetics clearly has something to do with it.

I realize higher testosterone is optimal for a variety of reasons, but from the perspective of a teenage girl you have to understand it could also have some undesirable effects. Her parents are very tall and she doesnt want to grow to be TOO big, and testosterone has a significant affect on bone and muscle growth. The large facial features, odor, aggressiveness that are products of male hormones are other things she could do without. I think we need to pinpoint a balance, and Im wondering if drugs are the roght way to do that.

Just wondering what you tried for this and if it helped.

 

[mamaherrera]

me too, I"m curious as this is my issue too.

 

[1kT]

Here are 24 natural DHT blockers - Natural DHT Blockers to Stay Away From

 

[mamaherrera]

so like the carrot and mangos are good for inhibiting DHT? But if I take a little zinc, it increases it.

 

[paymanz]

how progesterone can lower testosterone?!progesterone itself can be converted to testosterone,so..?!

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and also i want to know what causes high testosterone levels in female(young).

 

[beachbum]

Bump