Conventional Varicose Vein Procedures

[Gl;itch.e]

Hi Guys

My current lady friend has had problems with pain from varicose veins in the calve, back of knees for a number of years. It gets especially bad when exercising. She is still young (25), doesn't use birth control and is pretty conscious of putting anything extremely estrogenic into her body.

She is considering a procedure where they inject something into the veins that essentially kills them/seals them off and supposedly this allows for normal activity/exercise without pain. This all sounds a bit drastic and unnatural to me.

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts on the procedure or idea's that could make a substantial difference to this condition. I have gone through Ray's articles and apart from the general sort of support thyroid/reduce estrogen I cant see anything specific. Maybe progesterone as a supplement/topical but I don't know how much luck Id have of getting her to try that.

 

[tara]

I'd think progest-e for starters, topical and/or on gums. If it were me I'd want to try that before more invasive/destructive procedures. If it's happening in some veins, related things could be happening in other places that she can't see/feel at this stage. Destroying those painful ones won't help the systemic issues. If she can keep them intact, they may provide a valuable indicator for whether other measures are working, that may be protective in more important ways internally.
How's general metabolism - temps?

 

[tara]

I guess you've run her diet through cronometer to see if there are obvious deficiencies? Getting enough sodium and magnesium?

 

[lindsay]

The only thing I've ever heard RP mention for treating varicose veins is progesterone. I would definitely give it a try before opting for an invasive procedure. It's fairly cheap, you don't have to see a doctor, and it's very un-invasive. Just apply as Tara mentioned - Progest E topically to affected areas and also to the gums (for absorption into the blood stream). I've never had varicose veins, so I cannot attest to progesterone's effectiveness at treating them, but I'd say it's worth a try.

Also, your lady friend is sure it's Varicose veins and not Deep vein thrombosis?? Sorry - I'm only looking at Wikipedia, but apparently, they appear similar but are very different issues - as DVT involves clotting. Which makes me wonder if aspirin might be an option for Varicose veins?? Or vitamin E??

Heck, I would try a bunch of dietary/supplementary things that could help before opting for surgery. Vitamin K2, Vitamin E, and progesterone - as supplements. If your lady friend doesn't want to take K2, she can opt to eat liver. Vitamin E works against estrogen and thins blood (so you want to use E & K2 together, like with aspirin). Progesterone I've never had any issue with on its own and I've been taking the stuff for over a year now at pretty high doses.

 

[treelady]

Just my opinion :2cents but whatever caused the veins isn't corrected by a procedure and they would probably just come back again... I see the body as a system - everything is interrelated. The varicose veins is her body telling her there is a problem. Your friend is lucky she got the warning and if she finds and corrects the root cause, her whole body will be better for it.

"varicose veins are merely low-pressure analogs of arterial aneurysms, and they obviously develop under specific conditions, such as pregnancy and malnutrition. Spider veins are another anatomical variation that commonly appears under the influence of estrogen. - Ray Peat"

Since my problem is similar, I am listing what I have been doing in case it might help. I got varicose veins and spider veins, along with edema, sore sensitive burning skin, after taking lamicatal for seizures. After going off the drug improvement has been slow but steady. I think you are right about the aspirin - The thing that made the biggest immediate difference for me was aspirin. Currently I am taking a baby aspirin 4x/day. It has pretty much stopped the pain and actually spider veins are receding in places. That really surprised me because I was not taking aspirin for that reason.

Since I feel that the varicose veins are a symptom of a greater problem, I am working at it on a system level. This is an overview of what I am currently doing:
- Taking Progest-E on my gums to help with estrogen dominance which is probably one of the main causes of varicose veins. For me, putting it on the veins didn't seem to make much difference, but I have heard that it helps.
- I am not finding this anywhere, but it seems when I increased my dose of B1 my legs were better. This is probably just me as my body craves B1 and I have some symptoms of a deficiency.
- PUFA avoidance - Polyunsaturated fats are involved in atherosclerosis and fibrin deposits in veins.
- Thyroid is something to consider- Hypothyroid is a whole post in itself but it is related to estrogen, PUFA, circulation, practically everything it seems.

"Unsaturated oils block thyroid hormone secretion, its movement in the circulatory system, and the response of tissues to the hormone. When the thyroid hormone is deficient, the body is generally exposed to increased levels of estrogen. The thyroid hormone is essential for making the "protective hormones" progesterone and pregnenolone, so these hormones are lowered when anything interferes with the function of the thyroid. - Ray Peat"

- Protein - Protein is needed to repair the veins and Ray Peat says "protein deficiency has been shown to increase the risk of blood clots." The amino acid makeup of the protein is important.
- Gelatin or glycine. Gelatin is very high in glycine. I can't take the great lakes gelatin so I am taking glycine powder (and a capsule at bedtime to relax me). Glycine's inhibitory effects appear to oppose estrogen's actions
- Proline is needed for the synthesis of collagen, the protein that constitutes human connective tissues - skin, tendons, ligaments, joints, bones, VEINS and arteries. You can get this from gelatin but since I can't take it I take capsules.
- Gotu Kola - This herb has really helped me with the symptoms and pain of varicose veins.
- CO2 - Since hyperventilation can increase capillary leakage and cause the blood to become more concentrated, increasing carbon dioxide (breathing in a bag is one way) should help to restore capillary function. I'm not noticing a whole lot of difference here, I don't remember to do it regularly though.
- Vitamin E - Very important but I was already taking it for years.

Sorry for the long post. If she is willing to tackle varicose veins from a body-wide perspective, I think the Peat lifestyle is a good avenue to explore.

 

[SaltGirl]

The most common anecdotal testimonials for curing varicose veins that I have encountered are:

* Calcium - I have occasionally see coral calcium user talk about coral calcium reducing or even eliminating varicose veins. Also, some of the fringe herbalist healers talk about varicose veins being a calcium deficiency.

* Copper - This one is actually quite common. Many people talk about zinc creating a problem with varicose veins and then reversing it with copper supplementation.

* Sodium - I have usually seen this associated with the infamous water cure. However, since sodium increases CO2(which might help calcium retention) and increases absorption rate of copper there might be a logical connection to the two aforementioned supplements.

Now here are the weirder ones.

* Apple Cider Vinegar - I am not sure what it is about ACV that helps some people. I wonder if it is doing something to endotoxin or if it has a lot of salicylic acid. Old home tricks for varicose veins was the use of aspirin.

* Cayenne pepper - This one I have no idea why works for some people(allegedly).

 

[lindsay]

* Apple Cider Vinegar - I am not sure what it is about ACV that helps some people. I wonder if it is doing something to endotoxin or if it has a lot of salicylic acid. Old home tricks for varicose veins was the use of aspirin.

When my dog had a calcified ear drum, I was researching home remedies - one of them was ACV.
Apparently, there is something about ACV that helps prevent or fix calcification of soft tissues and arteries - probably has something to do with restoring PH. But it any case, the implication is that it helps proper blood flow. I would think K2 would have similar benefits.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Thanks for your replies Ladies. Its appreciated. Now comes the more difficult task of trying to get her to try any of it! (;

 

[tara]

For an out there and non-Peat idea, there was someone promoting inclined bed therapy for various things, an I think the clearest evidence he had was for improving varicose veins. Counter-intuitively, it involves raising the head end of the bed by about 6-8 inches, IIRC. I tried it, quite liked it, but I didn't notice any difference for my health issues. In one bed I just took the legs off the foot end for a couple of weeks. In my current bed I put big blocks under the feet at the head end. Very non-invasisve. Only downside is getting used to you and blankets not sliding down hill. The theory was not confirmed, but I think they hypothesised that there was something about the mechanism trees use to get fluids moving up to great heights passively that could be employed by sleeping inclined.

 

[Blossom]

Now where else can you find so much helpful advice? All were wonderful replies imo.

 

[SaltGirl]

Excellent addition tara. I did also look into IBT some time ago.

If I understood the theory it was about general solutes in the body being drawn down due to gravity, but that in turn would create a certain level of circulation. It actually gave me an idea that varicose veins might be in some way an electrolyte issue, considering that sodium and calcium have both been reported providing benefits(of course, both electrolytes relate to circulation). It would also fit Peat's discussion about estrogen and how it makes people lose electrolyte and that varicose veins are more common in women than men(due to estrogen).

I also recall a fruitarian claiming her varicose veins disappeared when she went on the 30 bananas a day type of diet. Of course, that diet has an incredible amount of electrolytes compared to most standard diets, plus high levels of salicylic acid(which fits why people used to use aspirin in the old days).

There is also one method I read, but it wasn't commonly reported so I never thought too much about it. Some claimed improvement in varicose veins by applying coconut oil to the affected area which supposedly helped the issue. It makes me wonder if PUFAs aren't partially to blame for varicose veins as well(considering that estrogen liberate pufa and so on).

 

[LucyL]

I was listening to an interview about Inclined Bed Therapy, and the proponent mentioned that the "literature" showed a 2 degree body temperature drop for most people around 3:30 am - that time we immediately recognize as the peak of early morning rise in the stress hormones - but when sleeping on an inclined bed, that temperature drop doesn't happen. Is it possible that sleeping on an incline can reduce the nighttime rise of stress hormones which exacerbate just about every medical condition? Anyone want to ask Ray his thoughts? (I think I've already pestered him too much this past month).

 

[SaltGirl]

I know that 4:00 was often called "The Hour of the Wolf" by my mother when she worked as a nurse. If a person was close to death(illness, age) it would be during that time they'd most likely die.

Personally I think the IBT keeps the heart more active(gravity and all) and that is somehow strengthening things.

 

[haidut]

Hi Guys

My current lady friend has had problems with pain from varicose veins in the calve, back of knees for a number of years. It gets especially bad when exercising. She is still young (25), doesn't use birth control and is pretty conscious of putting anything extremely estrogenic into her body.

She is considering a procedure where they inject something into the veins that essentially kills them/seals them off and supposedly this allows for normal activity/exercise without pain. This all sounds a bit drastic and unnatural to me.

Just wondering if anyone has thoughts on the procedure or idea's that could make a substantial difference to this condition. I have gone through Ray's articles and apart from the general sort of support thyroid/reduce estrogen I cant see anything specific. Maybe progesterone as a supplement/topical but I don't know how much luck Id have of getting her to try that.

If she can tolerate oral pregnenolone, taking large doses of say several hundred milligrams should elevate progesterone levels a lot and help the varicose veins recede on their own. Combined with topical progesterone this should be even more effective. I am not sure why she would be more receptive to getting injected with sclerotic agent that can throw a clot and cause trips to the ER vs. trying something that at best would make her sleepy. Ask her to ask her doctor of the risk of sclerotizing therapy in terms of clots and embolisms. Unless the doctor is criminally dishonest she would be scared shitless. Now, whether this is something you want to even bring up is a choice you'll have to make

 

[Gl;itch.e]

Thanks for that Haidut. She actually had the treatment and apart from a period of adjusting and dealing with inflammation and flare ups she is doing really well. She's able to exercise without pain and is feeling good about the whole thing. Now I fully expect that this isn't the end to her vein problems but I'm hoping that now I'm a big part of her life she will be more receptive to trying things such as pregnenolone and progesterone and maybe not have to deal with anything as severe again.

 

[Parsifal]

The most common anecdotal testimonials for curing varicose veins that I have encountered are:

* Calcium - I have occasionally see coral calcium user talk about coral calcium reducing or even eliminating varicose veins. Also, some of the fringe herbalist healers talk about varicose veins being a calcium deficiency.

* Copper - This one is actually quite common. Many people talk about zinc creating a problem with varicose veins and then reversing it with copper supplementation.

* Sodium - I have usually seen this associated with the infamous water cure. However, since sodium increases CO2(which might help calcium retention) and increases absorption rate of copper there might be a logical connection to the two aforementioned supplements.

Now here are the weirder ones.

* Apple Cider Vinegar - I am not sure what it is about ACV that helps some people. I wonder if it is doing something to endotoxin or if it has a lot of salicylic acid. Old home tricks for varicose veins was the use of aspirin.

* Cayenne pepper - This one I have no idea why works for some people(allegedly).

Interesting. I thought copper supplements could be estrogenic? Would it remove the varicose veins by antagonizing NO?

If she can tolerate oral pregnenolone, taking large doses of say several hundred milligrams should elevate progesterone levels a lot and help the varicose veins recede on their own. Combined with topical progesterone this should be even more effective. I am not sure why she would be more receptive to getting injected with sclerotic agent that can throw a clot and cause trips to the ER vs. trying something that at best would make her sleepy. Ask her to ask her doctor of the risk of sclerotizing therapy in terms of clots and embolisms. Unless the doctor is criminally dishonest she would be scared shitless. Now, whether this is something you want to even bring up is a choice you'll have to make:)

Pregnenolone and progesterone give me palpitations or skipped heartbeats. Do you know why it does so?

 

[m_arch]

I've also heard progesterone recommended by a mainstream doctor to treat varicose veins.

Heck, I would try a bunch of dietary/supplementary things that could help before opting for surgery. Vitamin K2, Vitamin E, and progesterone - as supplements. If your lady friend doesn't want to take K2, she can opt to eat liver. Vitamin E works against estrogen and thins blood (so you want to use E & K2 together, like with aspirin). Progesterone I've never had any issue with on its own and I've been taking the stuff for over a year now at pretty high doses.

I've head this before - that liver has k2 - but when I googled it, it seems the amount of k2 in liver is really really tiny? Compared to what you get in supplements anyway.

 

[Demyze]

I've also heard progesterone recommended by a mainstream doctor to treat varicose veins.



I've head this before - that liver has k2 - but when I googled it, it seems the amount of k2 in liver is really really tiny? Compared to what you get in supplements anyway.

These threads have some interesting info about the vitamin k2 content in liver.
Did Ray Peat really did vitamin k analysis of liver
Vitamin K2- mk-4 vs mk-7, did any work for you?

Peat apparently measured it himself and it was a few mg's a kilo.

 

[burtlancast]

VARICOSE VEINS
Vitamin E, in massive dosages, according to the Drs. Shute (appendix A) "increases collateral circulation around the deep, obstructed veins, decreases ankle oedema [swelling] and leg ache, halts the varicose process, cuts down or relieves any associated skin irritation, and lets the patient walk much better. Often the veins seem to regress, although this is unpredictable."

The Shutes were among the first to observe the beneficient effect of Vitamin E on varicose veins. This condition is often the forerunner of indolent ulcer. The Shutes' findings are corroborated by other researchers. They do not recommend operations for varicose veins as the same condition usually returns in about one-and-one-half years' time. Why shouldn't it return"? The operation admittedly does not clear up the basic cause of varicose veins; it merely removes temporarily the discomfort and unsightly appearances. As the 'cause' still exists , the condition , along with the symptoms , usually returns. However, the Shutes agree that, for cosmetic reasons, the operation should be performed if a woman wants it, even though knowing that the condition will probably recur shortly. Now, although the following possibility is not mentioned by the Shutes, why shouldn't a person have the unsightly veins removed by surgery, all the while undertaking a course of Vitamin E therapy? There is every reason to believe that although Vitamin E cannot make new veins out of old, or at least cannot usually remove the unsightliness, it should be able to prevent the return of varicosity by removing at least part of the basic causes. It would be interesting to see this idea carried out by clinical tests.

Jesus was a Vegetarian
( don't mind the vegetarian part)

Varicose Veins And Thrombophlebitis

Topical DMSO can whiten telangiectasias, small dilated blood vessels near the surface of the skin. It can also decrease the size of varicosities in the legs and the inflammation that goes with it, along with a relief of their cramping discomfort (Marvin, 1967. Blumenthal, Fuchs, 1967).

DMSO: The Antidote For Radiation Poisoning As Fukushima Looms

 

[tara]

DMSO: The Antidote For Radiation Poisoning As Fukushima Looms

Did you find this part compelling too?:
'Our extensive experience and research shows that those on a no grain/low carb (no gluten) and non dairy diet fare MUCH better.'