Experiences With Progest-E For Varicose Veins & Spider Veins

Discussion in 'Progesterone' started by Edle, May 19, 2013.

  1. Edle

    Edle Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    I have seen that people say they have been successful in treating varicose veins and spider veins with Progest-E. I would like to know a bit more about the experiences - how much and for how long to get results?

    Background: I had varicose veins on my right leg from my teens. It got gradually worse, and at age 34 I had hip to heel strip surgery. My mother has had no less than four varicose vein surgeries. Her sister has had two surgeries. I do not doubt that it is related to estrogen. Before my surgery I got off the birth control pill (after almost 16 years), and I did not go back on. The varicose veins have not come back on my right leg, but I get one or two veins standing out on my left leg from time to time. I also get spider veins on my legs easily.

    I have applied some Progest-E over olive oil on my spider veins from time to time, but I have not noticed any difference. Yesterday, while listening to the Peat March interview with the Herb Doctors where it was mentioned that a generous dose was used to bring standing veins down on an older lady, I decided to apply a bit more generously. I do not know how much I took, but it was several drops (over virgin olive oil). This was around 20:30. By 21:00 I was dead tired, and went to bed. I tried to read, but I just could not keep my eyes open for long. My body felt very heavy, but my muscles felt very relaxed. I think I was asleep by 21:40, woke up once at 3:25, fell back to sleep quickly and woke up rested at 05:25. My morning temp was higher than usual. There were no changes to the spider veins, but I noticed that my face looked better than usual. While I do not normally have very dark circles under my eyes, I usually have a slight blue/greyish colour. I noticed that this morning the skin under my eyes were the same colour as the rest of my face - hard to detect any blueness at all. I did a 50 min morning swim session. After I normally do a 20 min set resistance training, but even though I did not feel tired or worn from the swim, I just could not be bothered. My body did not feel geared up for it. My muscles were simply too relaxed.

    It seems like I got the sedation/anesthetic effect from the higher dose (more than 3 drops) of progesterone, yet no visible changes to the spider veins. So my questions are:

    - How much and how often have people applied Progest-E for varicose veins and spider veins to get results? Anyone else had the sedation effect from a highish dose on the skin?
     
  2. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,137
    Location:
    Florida
    This quote is from a Ray Peat Q&A about iron which was linked to in a discussion of safe non toxic cooking pans. I just wondered if copper would be helpful for varicose veins since he mentions "elasticity of....blood vessels." I have some trouble with varicose veins, although mostly it's just cosmetic. It would probably give me more trouble with different activities. My Mom has always had trouble with them.
    "Copper is the crucial element for producing the color in hair and skin, for maintaining the elasticity of skin and blood vessels, for protecting against certain types of free radical, and especially for allowing us to use oxygen properly for the production of biological energy. It is also necessary for the normal functioning of certain nerve cells (substantia nigra) whose degeneration is involved in Parkinson's disease. The shape and texture of hair, as well as its color, can change in a copper deficiency. Too much iron can block our absorption of copper, and too little copper makes us store too much iron. With aging, our tissues lose copper as they store excess iron. Because of those changes, we need more vitamin E as we age. "
     
  3. j.

    j. Guest

    Can anyone explain the part in bold?
     

    Attached Files:

  4. OP
    Edle

    Edle Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Thanks Swandattur. It is an interesting connection. I am wondering though if it is the interaction between estrogen and iron that might be the problem in varicose veins rather than necessarily low copper. Estrogen promotes iron retention. If I look at my mother as a single case - she is 66 and has virtually no grey hair, so if copper is associated with retaining hair color, she cannot be so low. And she has very persistent varicose veins and spider veins (cosmetic). But I definitely think iron excess can be part of the problem - and in that sense maybe the iron-copper ratio even though the copper is not low in absolute terms.

    j. - I am not sure, but Peat says Vitamin E is an estrogen antagonist and prevents oxidation - which I suppose means that it is an iron antagonist as well.
     
  5. burtlancast

    burtlancast Member

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2013
    Messages:
    2,618
    Iron promotes free radical oxydation.
    Vit E is a liposoluble antioxydant protecting our fats against free radical oxidation. It works even better when associated to hydrosoluble antioxydants like Vit C.

    Alpha lipoic acid is both lipo and hydro soluble and enhances the antioxydant effects of VIT C and E. The mineral Selenium, likewise, potentialises even further the antioxydant effects..
     
  6. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,137
    Location:
    Florida
    I read in a Ray Peat article somewhere that hair that has turned white, or I suppose grey, too, is loaded with serotonin. I know someone who is super energetic who has had white hair since her twenties. So, did all the serotonin go to her hair leaving the rest of her body in great shape? :) My mom, who is in her 80s, may still not have any grey or white, or if she does, it can't be much. She has dark red hair. I guess, though, it must be true that people can rapidly turn grey after an extreme stress.
     
  7. j.

    j. Guest

    I think it was tryptophan, not serotonin.
     
  8. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2013
    Messages:
    1,137
    Location:
    Florida
    Yes, I just looked it up. "In white hair, the amount of tryptophan is higher than in hair of any other color. Although serotonin and tryptophan are very important during rapid growth, their presence in senile tissues is probably closely associated with the processes of decline. The hair loss that occurs in hypothyroidism, postpartum syndrome, and with the use of drugs such as St. John's wort (which can also cause the “serotonin syndrome”) could be another effect of excess serotonin." From a Ray Peat article If that is where I originally got it, I guess what he meant was that aging goes along with an overload of tryptophan that ends up in the hair, but I suppose white hair should go with aging. In the case of the woman I know, it must be pretty hereditary, because one of her sons' hair turned white at around twenty. He does have a luxuriant head of hair, though.
     
  9. Bryan

    Bryan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    I had painful scrotal varicose veins for a couple of years. I was very hypothyroid and had a family history of varicose veins, dark circles, male pattern baldness, testicular cancer, cysts - basically high estrogen. I ate soy a few times a week for *years* as well. I had to use 100mg a day / one bottle a month of the progest-e for the past 1.5 years just to get rid of the pain. The varicose veins can definitely get better very quickly with large doses of progesterone or pregnenolone.
     
  10. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,021
    Glad to hear you were able to stop the pain. Do you still use progesterone or pregnenolone? Did you use topically as well as internally? My veins have never hurt until this past year which I attribute to weight gain and still it is minor, but they are not pretty. I don't suppose the progesterone makes them disappear?
     
  11. Jenn

    Jenn Member

    Joined:
    Feb 24, 2013
    Messages:
    1,035
    Mine come and go with my cycle. So yes, progesterone will make them go away once there is enough.
     
  12. Bryan

    Bryan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    I still ideally use Pregnenolone (1000mg) and progesterone (100mg) daily if I can get that much, right now I'm having a hard time sourcing pregnenolone in bulk and affording the progest-e, so I'm not taking as much as I'd like.

    I take them internally, and externally in the case of progest-e.

    When I said the varicose veins can get "better" with the hormones I meant they can shrink and uncurl. Peat said thyroid as well as pregnenolone and progesterone can "restore smooth muscle tone". He wasn't vague at all about it:

    "keeping the estrogen and serotonin low, with higher thyroid,
    pregnenolone, and progesterone can restore smooth muscle tone to the veins." RP

    I Hope that clarifies and helps things =)
     
  13. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,412
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA

    :shock:
     
  14. Bryan

    Bryan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    @charlie - haha! I know, I know... But you've heard that Peat took tablespoons of the stuff right? He said 3000mg a day for a year was what he did =P

    By the way, the functional performance systems website has a new article called "Estrogen and Varicose Veins" for those interested. Right on time, eh?

    (I don't know if it's ok to post links to his/other peoples sites or not, so I'll just mention it)
     
  15. charlie

    charlie The Law & Order Admin

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2012
    Messages:
    11,412
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    USA
    Well, let us know how it goes.

    Links are fine.
     
  16. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,021
    Thanks Jenn and Bryan. So, it is a continual dosing forever? Or once they shrink and uncurl, are they no longer a problem?
     

    Attached Files:

  17. OP
    Edle

    Edle Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Thanks for the input Bryan!

    When you say the varicose veins get better very quickly, do you mean within a week? Four days of a pretty high dose topically did not make any difference for me. I stopped now because of my cycle, but will try again in the luteal phase.

    Did you never have negative side effects to the Progest-E and pregnenolone? When I tried 100 mg of pregnenolone a day I was awake all night, super high strong, got acne all over, and well, the androgen hormones seemed to get pretty much out of control.
     
  18. Bryan

    Bryan Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2013
    Messages:
    24
    @Haagendazendiane, No they aren't permanently better, just improved. They can change quickly either way, better or worse. Maybe someone can get healthy and lower serotonin and estrogen like peat said, and then be better permanently without the therapy.

    @Edle, No definitely not in a week. I still have them after constantly using progest-e for a long time. I mean they can get better or worse very quickly, sorry for the confusion everybody.

    I've taken 1,000mg before bed before and haven't noticed anything sleep wise, if anything it's better because I'm more relaxed. No major acne changes (It can get quite bad). Pregnenolone and progesterone can possibly trigger early ovulation and that raises estrogen, might be why you feel weird on them, don't know.
     
  19. HDD

    HDD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 1, 2012
    Messages:
    2,021

    Thanks, Bryan. Improving is good and with perseverance and time, healthy!
     
  20. OP
    Edle

    Edle Member

    Joined:
    Oct 17, 2012
    Messages:
    54
    Thanks Bryan!
    I will try to be more patient with the spider veins and varicose veins.
    Even one drop of progesterone for me pre-ovulation, seem to delay ovulation for 1-3 days.
    I think I feel a bit weird on high progesterone, because I am probably feeling more normal. I think I have an element of the estrogen mania Peat talks about, and with higher progesterone doses I calm down quite a bit.
     
Loading...