Health care policy, the good, the bad, the ugly...

Discussion in 'Political Talk, Alternative World Theories' started by Swandattur, Jun 15, 2013.

  1. Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    I thought it would be interesting if people cared to post about what they found good or bad about the health care system in their own country. There are definite problems in the US with health care, of course. Some people haven't been able to get good health care. Partly it depends on what kind of insurance you get through a job. If you don't get it that way, you may fall through the cracks. I should mention here that some of the 'care' you may not want if you feel as most? people do here that it's not good for you. My sister and her husband are worried I'm sure about the fact that she no longer gets insurance through her job. He has been getting treatment for prostate cancer. He works for himself doing house painting and things like that. Maybe the Obama care, when it goes into effect, will rescue the situation. I have seen documentaries about the way health care is done in other countries, and some of it sounds good, but I realize you can get a more balanced view if you hear from people who live in the countries as to what their actual experience of it is.
    When my sister was in Cornwall quite a few years ago, she knew someone who had depression, but was unable to see a psychiatrist, because the system did not allow her to bypass the GP who wouldn't give her a referral. On one documentary, it sounded as if Germany had a good health care program. The Swiss one sounded good, too. Anyway, I thought it would be interesting to hear what people had to say about it.
     
  2. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    I wanted to add another thing. To me it seems strange having health care tied to a person's job. Nowadays in the US, big companies keep many employees hours below full time, so that they don't have to provide insurance. My son does have some kind of insurance with his job, but it isn't much. I worry about him sometimes. Our financial situation was bad for a while, but is better now. So, we could help, if needed, but lots of times medical care is beyond ordinary people's ability to pay without insurance. I try to help with things I'm learning for self health care.
     
  3. jaguar43

    jaguar43 Member

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    I think its good to have health insurances for emergencies.However if I were to get cancer, I would do everything possible to avoid their treatment. Obamacare is benefitting the pharmaceutical and insurance companies with the no cap on premiums and people with pre-existing conditions. Older people will be charge more than the young. I think chris hedges has the right idea about obamacare in this article. He was a war correspondent for twenty years, wrote many books on wars, liberalism, and today society in the U.S.

    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/the ... _20120409/

    With all due respect to the libertarians and the capitalist on this forum, I think obamacare is a free market at it's finest decorated with socialist tendencies from the Republicans and Libertarians. It's funny how quickly the Libertarians have organized while the far left cannot get a dime. I wish we had Germany's model of insurance, They manufacture their own products so unemployments is far below than any other european countries. They do have a capitalistic view on business, however they keep it balance with unions, socialist party and has seen enough blood shed in the world wars to get into any foreign conflict.
     
  4. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Thanks for the input. In a documentary I saw, the German health care model did look good. The article looks interesting. I'll read it later after refueling. The low fuel light went on a little while ago and juice isn't cutting it.
     
  5. Asimov

    Asimov Member

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    The fact that there's a "policy" probably means it's doomed to fail.

    Healthcare is a good, just like food and water (which for the most part, have no "policy" but are cheap and abundant in all of the 1st world). Best managed by supply of the providers and the demand of the consumers.
     
  6. kiran

    kiran Member

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    There's a reason why MRIs for people cost 10 times as much as MRIs for pets in the US, and Health Care Policy is that reason.
     
  7. honeybee

    honeybee Member

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    I agree policy and legislation has somewhat to do with the hc delivery system we have n the us. However, I've worked both sides of the hc system- delivery & insurance-and i have to say there is ALOT of of waste and ineffieicncies on both sides. It's pretty horrible. There's ALOT of greed on all sides- that's pretty much what it comes down to-money. Everyone involved pays lip service to the patient/consumer, but the bottom line is really the $.
     
  8. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Heck, I can't afford all that health care for my pets even if it is cheaper! I wonder now if all those vaccinations against this, that and the other are all that good for them anyway. Maybe I should focus more on their diet. Some people do say insurance companies drive up the cost of medical care.
    It seems to me that there need to be checks and balances such as unions and government regulations to keep capitalism from turning into a monster like it seems to be becoming now and did in the industrial revolution when people worked in poor conditions for poor wages for most of their waking hours. The trouble is government is too much a part of capitalism to be a check against it. Maybe elected officials and those in positions of power should have to take a lifetime vow of poverty or at least middle income. Hmm, wonder who would want to be in government, then?
     
  9. kiran

    kiran Member

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  10. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    I hadn't seen that on Wikipedia. That's interesting. My sister has talked about the idea that it's unnecessary and maybe harmful for pets to get overly frequent vaccinations. She feels it's best not to give her oldest pets more vaccinations, because it is stressful and probably unnecessary, anyway.
     
  11. Asimov

    Asimov Member

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    Without getting too much into the history of capitalism, the whole idea that the industrial revolution drove down wages and working conditions is a complete revisionist myth.

    Just like with everything, the pure capitalist system is far superior. You want better healthcare, offer cash to your doctor. Wait until you see the smile on his face and the attentive service you get afterwards.
     
  12. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Err, what about those people in the factories toiling away. What about the song "Sixteen Tons? " What about the song "Joe Hill?" Just off the top of my head. Folk songs can reveal history.
    http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f_yC4ffyGiw
     
  13. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    My Mom says in the early 30s, when Bonnie and Clyde were robbing banks, the ordinary people were rooting for them, because the banks were not exactly well liked. My grandpa one time took out a loan for seeds to plant. The understanding was that the loan would be paid when his crops came in as was the usual custom. However, the bank decided to call the loan in early.
     
  14. Asimov

    Asimov Member

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    Believe it or not, toiling away in factors (while it may seem miserable to us) was a huge step up from subsistence farming. The lot of most people's lives improved when they took those difficult factory jobs, squirreled away some money, and put their kids through college. People complaining about their lives improvement is nothing new. Everyone complains about everything.

    Little known fact: Henry Ford, the original "evil capitalist" introduced the 40 hour work week (as opposed to the 80 hour work weeks that were common at the time) as well as company sponsored health care for his employees (he paid for doctor check-ups).
     
  15. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Yes, some people, even rich and powerful people want to do right by others, and Ford knew people with money in their pockets could buy cars! Not all business people are this smart or this fair. I don't think any of those factory workers before the turn of the century were putting anybody through college. Many people wouldn't have been able go to college without the GI bill after WWII. It raised the overall level of education for people in the US.
    Here's a link to a site that tells about child labor in factories, and this was after 1900. http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/childlabor/
     
  16. Asimov

    Asimov Member

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    There's too much to address in your post with one rational, well thought out response, so I'll just bulletpoint.

    *Harvard tuition at the turn of the century was around $100 dollars at a time when people earned a few thousand dollar per year. Well within the ability of the average factory worker to save.
    *Many people can and were able to go to college at the turn of the century by paying for it themselves. In fact there was a huge boost in college graduation rates from 1920-1930, without the help of the GI bill. Again....markets made this happen, not the government.
    *Henry Ford didn't pay his employees well so they could afford his cars. He paid them well because his turnover was horrendous. Here's a little argument that blows the old "middle class building" dream out of the water
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall ... you-think/
    *Children didn't work at the turn of the century because they thought it would be fun, they did it because they were desperately poor and would have starved to death otherwise. Recent studies in Indonesia have shown that banning child labor lead to worse outcomes for the children.

    I'm not going to rehash the oldest anti-capitalist arguments in the world here. I'm not interested in having a debate on 101 level econ. I've already had them, I've won, I've moved on. I'm not interested in a long, expensive, futile lesson on the history of the US to someone who has a fundamental desire to mis-understand it.

    You asked questions, I tried to answer. Since your questions were not genuine searches for knowledge, but instead passive-aggressive jabs at a system you don't understand, I'll bow out. I'll allow you to invent whatever reality you wish about capitalism and the industrial revolution that you wish without further molestation.
     
  17. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    Err, who are you raving at? little ole me? I'm deserving of a rave? Wow! If you're such a smarty pants, why can't you make your point? The point I was making is that children working in a factory all the time were not getting an education, and therefore their parents even if they did miraculously save the money could not send the kids to college if the kids had no preliminary education. Take that! You Capitalist fiend!!!
     
  18. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    This thread was really supposed to be for a friendly discussion about healthcare. I guess it was bound to get off into other political stuff. I really don't enjoy arguing. Hence the hysterical silliness.
     
  19. OP
    Swandattur

    Swandattur Member

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    I would like to say that I'm sure glad my Grandpa stayed 'down on the farm' because he was really a good farmer. He did lots of different kinds of work, and eventually planted some small citrus groves. He got into growing fern for florists, some of which was shipped to other countries. He developed a hardy strain of large leather leaf fern that people still call 'Mayfield' fern after him. In the last years of his life he did do very well in the fern business, and saved quite a bit of money which enabled my Grandma, who had also participated in the business, to live comfortably for the rest of her life, and pass along money to my Mom.
     
  20. gretchen

    gretchen Member

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    It seems when I was younger I never heard a word about "needing" health care. People got houses, cars, and medical care through working. There wasn't the obsession with health care as a "right".

    Income disparity, the legacy of Reaganomics, has become one of the major cultural issues of my lifetime, so now the discussion is framed in terms of the 1% versus 99%. 1%ers, for example, can afford things like medical concierges, which actually could be the future of health care if the economy ever recovers:
    http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... ealth-care

    And since it isn't likely to any time soon, if ever, the 99%ers can keep calm and feel the Obamacare.
    [​IMG]
     
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