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Peating For Kids

Rayser

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Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
207
I'm sure it's the tryptophan. I suppose I'll have to ask him about pregnancy. My best friend is pregnant right now ...
Thank you for the quote, Charlie!
 

charlie

The Law & Order Admin
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Jan 4, 2012
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USA
:hattip
 

Jenn

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Feb 24, 2013
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Its only gelatin that contains no tryptophan, so eating any other protein is going to give the baby enough. The body can make it from niacin too, so I wouldn't worry about a deficiency during pregnancy. Iron supplements taken by the mother are part of what causes jaundice in babies. They don't need it yet.
 

Rayser

Member
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Apr 3, 2013
Messages
207
Hello, Jenn and thanks.

Yes, gelatine contains no tryptophan but most of the amino acids to balance it which is why it's a good idea to eat gelatine with tryptophan containing foods like meat or dairy. But since the enzyme is a precursor of serotonin and many things Ray Peat suggests lower tryptophan (for instance niacinamide) on their own I'd like to ask him if there are some other changes recommended for pregnancy.

You are not right about niacin and tryptophan - it's exactly the other way around. You use niacinamide to lower tryptophan since it's converted to niacinamide.

"The normal pathway from tryptophan to niacin leads to formation of the coenzyme NAD, which is involved in a great variety of cellular processes, notably energy production, the maintenance of the cellular differentiated state by regulating gene expression, and the activity of phagocytes."

And I suppose this would be a problem in pregnancy:

"Estrogen activates an enzyme that alters metabolism of tryptophan, blocking the formation of niacin. The alternative products include the excitotoxin, quinolinic acid, and some carcinogens. Progesterone inhibits the activity of that enzyme. Progesterone also lowers brain serotonin (Izquierdo, et al., 1978), decreases the excitatory carcinogens (Moursi, et al., 1970) and increases the formation of niacin (Shibata, et al., 2003) The polyunsaturated fats, DHA, EPA, and linoleic acid activate the conversion of tryptophan to quinolinic acid (Egashira, et al., 2003, 2004), and inhibit the formation of niacin (Egashira, et al., 1995)."

But I don't think you should stop using niacinamide during pregnancy:

"Glucose and niacinamide work very closely with each other, and with the thyroid hormone, in the maintenance and repair of cells and tissues. When one of these energy-producing factors is lacking, the changes in cell functions -- a sort of pre-inflammatory state -- activate corrective processes."

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/regeneration-degeneration.shtml

Of course I wouldn't consider iron supplements, not in any case. But since it's a huge point to avoid iron in a diet - for instance by drinking coffee or Coca-Cola during meals which might contain iron (like liver or oysters) - it might be necessary to consider changing that during pregnancy if the fetus would need iron, too.

May I ask where you got the information that a fetus doesn't need iron?
I'd only read about iron supplements leading to jaundice and even cancer in newborns.
If you do as Ray Peat suggests and donate blood regularly (which I do four times a year) you are officially "iron deficient". Of course I welcome that but I am not sure if I would recommend it to a pregnant woman unless your information is correct and a fetus doesn't need it. I'd be glad for the information since my best friend is pregnant right now.

http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/iron-dangers.shtml
 

Jenn

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Feb 24, 2013
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I was confusing seratonin and tryptophan. Niacin and niacinimide are not quite the same thing. Niacin can be converted to seratonin (not desirable, but possible). Niacinimide can not. I wasn't suggesting anything about niacinamide.

I would not recommend a pregnant woman donate blood either. I don't think a menstruating women needs to donate blood either, unless she's been supplementing with pills or cereals. The baby will get what it needs from mom with regards to iron. Milk has very little iron for a reason.

Liver is high in iron, oysters are not, their blood is zinc based, not iron based.

Oysters would be good for pregnancy, if they were desirable. Most anemia is due to lack of copper, zinc or b-12, not lack of iron. I wouldn't suggest any food the pregnant woman found repulsive.
 

Rayser

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Apr 3, 2013
Messages
207
Jenn said:
I was confusing seratonin and tryptophan. Niacin and niacinimide are not quite the same thing. Niacin can be converted to seratonin (not desirable, but possible). Niacinimide can not. I wasn't suggesting anything about niacinamide.

Of course they are not the same, they are two forms of vitamin B3: Niacinamide can be made from niacin. Niacin is converted to niacinamide when used in higher than physiological amounts. Are you sure you don't mean that niacin and nicotinamide can be converted to nicotinamide adenine dinucleotide (phosphate)? Because all I find otherwise is that tryptophan is converted to niacin and not the other way around as Ray Peat says here:

"The normal pathway from tryptophan to niacin leads to formation of the coenzyme NAD, which is involved in a great variety of cellular processes, notably energy production, the maintenance of the cellular differentiated state by regulating gene expression, and the activity of phagocytes." RP

Jenn said:
I would not recommend a pregnant woman donate blood either. I don't think a menstruating women needs to donate blood either, unless she's been supplementing with pills or cereals.

Ray Peat recommends donating blood for menstruating women (not necessarily during menstruation but before menopause). When you donate blood you give 500ml. The average amount of blood lost during menstruation is 30-40ml, with 90% of women losing less than 80ml. That doesn't change the iron levels in tissue or blood.

Jenn said:
The baby will get what it needs from mom with regards to iron.

Yes, I get that. The fetus (we are talking about pregnant women, no baby yet) will have to get everything from his mother. But since people who read Ray Peat try to avoid iron (through coffee or coke) they would be deficient. I wanted to know if that might be a reason to suspend this behavior during pregnancy. You said a fetus didn't need iron. May I ask for the source of this information?

Jenn said:
Milk has very little iron for a reason.

I assume you talk about breast milk? Newer studies show that the bio-availability of iron in breast milk is many times higher than that in normal milk.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/577504
"The results indicated that infants fed breast milk during the entire first six to seven months of life attained greater iron stores than did those fed a cow milk formula. Breast-fed infants absorbed an average of 49% of a trace dose of extrinsic iron administered during a breast feeding in contrast to about 10% reported to be absorbed from cow milk under similar conditions."

Jenn said:
Liver is high in iron, oysters are not, their blood is zinc based, not iron based.

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/articles/food-sources-of-iron.php
http://www.healthaliciousness.com/nutri ... 0&r=190.00


Actually, oysters contain more iron than liver. They are number one on the list of foods with high iron content.

Oysters: 28mg (155% DV)/100g
Liver (Pork, Beef, Lamb): 23mg (129% DV)/100g


Jenn said:
Oysters would be good for pregnancy, if they were desirable. Most anemia is due to lack of copper, zinc or b-12, not lack of iron.

You are right on account of the iron but I have never heard of zinc or B12 deficiency causing anemia. In fact too much B12 can causes "peculiar symptoms" (Ray Peat) and too much zinc causes inflammation and increases the risk for breast cancer. It's the zinc/copper ratio which is important. Anemia is usually caused by hypothyroidism.

"Anemia in women is caused most often by a thyroid deficiency (as discussed in the chapter on thyroid), or by various nutritional deficiencies." RP

Jenn said:
I wouldn't suggest any food the pregnant woman found repulsive.

Yeah, well, right now it's really about her and her fetus being healthy. She doesn't much care about taste though she is very sensitive about smell.
 

Jenn

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Feb 24, 2013
Messages
1,035
I have livestock. Many things are common knowledge in animal circles that others have "never heard of." The first thing you do for a sick animal is take it's temperature. ;) Any Vet knows that, but MDs don't, go figure.
 

Rayser

Member
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Apr 3, 2013
Messages
207
Jenn said:
I have livestock. Many things are common knowledge in animal circles that others have "never heard of." The first thing you do for a sick animal is take it's temperature. ;) Any Vet knows that, but MDs don't, go figure.

Uh ... okay.
I think it's great that you have livestock and yes, I have come to admire some veterinarians. For instance in Germany they refuse to do x-rays on pregnant animals while gynecologists and dentists think it's no problem to do them on pregnant women.
I also appreciate common knowledge.
But when it comes to medical decisions, I'd rather have the scientific proof.
Too much "common knowledge" is just plain wrong and does a lot of harm.
For instance the believe that iron supplements help against anemia or fatigue or that PUFA are essential.
I will ask Ray Peat about the iron requirements of a fetus.
 

Rayser

Member
Joined
Apr 3, 2013
Messages
207
jaa said:
Hey Rayser,

I think you used clams instead of oysters for your iron comparison - nutritiondata.com lists oysters as having 5.8mg/100g of iron.

http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fin ... cts/4267/2

Actually the iron content depends on the kind of oysters (Pacific oysters have the highest iron content), on the way you eat them (raw or stewed or baked or canned), on whether they were grown in an aquaculture or wild and how old they are. I found several different pages with different numbers and didn't want to post them all because they all listed oysters as the iron richest food in the world. I have included some below. I wanted to make clear that oysters are even higher in iron than beef liver. The only foods with more iron are the livers of geese, ducks, pigs, chickens and turkeys. Since none of them are recommendable because of their high content of PUFA I didn't mention those either. Clams are very high in iron, too, yes. The information I posted before came from this page:

http://www.healthaliciousness.com/artic ... f-iron.php

Top 10 Foods Highest in Iron
#1: Mollusks (Clams, Mussels, Oysters, Shrimp)
Iron in 100g 3oz (85g) 20 Small Clams (190g)
28mg (155% DV) 24mg (132% DV) 53mg (295% DV)
Other Mollusks High in Iron (%DV per 3oz (85g)): Oysters (57%), Cuttlefish (51%), Whelk(48%), Octopus (45%), Mussels (32%), Abalone (18%), and Scallops (14%). Click to see complete nutrition facts.

Other pages about oysters and iron:

Oysters (Pacific) 2 - 4 medium sized oysters *7.2 mg of iron

http://www.fwhc.org/health/iron.htm

This food contains 7.7 milligrams of iron per 100 grams. Grams is a measure of weight. To put 100 grams in perspective, consider alternative measures for this food:
• 3 oz equals 85 grams.
• 6 medium equals 59 grams.


http://www.ironrichfood.org/iron-oyster/


6 Oysters 4.6mg of iron
http://www.thewomens.org.au/uploads/downloads/HealthInformation/Publications/Iron_table.pdf

Foods high in heme iron content include clams, oysters, pork livers, chicken livers, and beef livers, mussels, shrimp, sardines, poultry, beef, and other red meats.

http://www.ehow.com/about_4683990_foods-high-iron-content.html


Food** Serving Iron (mg)
*Liver, pork 75 g (2 ½ oz) 13.4
*Liver, chicken 75 g (2 ½ oz) 9.2
Oysters 75 g (2 ½ oz) 6.2
Mussels 75 g (2 ½ oz) 5.0
*Liver, beef 75 g (2 ½ oz) 4.8
Liver pate, canned 75 g (2 ½ oz) 4.1
Beef 75 g (2 ½ oz) 2.4
Shrimp 75 g (2 ½ oz) 2.0
Sardines 75 g (2 ½ oz) 2.0
Clams 75 g (2 ½ oz) 2.0
Lamb 75 g (2 ½ oz) 1.5
Tuna/herring/trout/mackerel 75 g (2 ½ oz) 1.2
Chicken 75 g (2 ½ oz) 0.9
Pork 75 g (2 ½ oz) 0.8
Salmon (canned/fresh) 75 g (2 ½ oz) 0.5
Turkey 75 g (2 ½ oz) 0.5
Flatfish (flounder/sole/plaice) 75 g (2 ½ oz) 0.3

http://www.healthlinkbc.ca/healthfiles/hfile68d.stm

Oysters are best low calorie food with major iron contents.

http://livealerts.blogspot.de/2012/12/10-foods-with-high-iron-content.html
 

m3rk

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Sep 22, 2013
Messages
4
i have a three year old daughter and a six month old son. my family went paleo when my daughter was about 8 months old. i never restricted carbs or dairy for her or anyone really except myself. she has loved liver and other offal since i first fed it to her and for that i am grateful. even now at three years old she will take down 4ozs every 10-14 days, lightly fried. she is a little foodie in the making... the only big changes since shifting my home from paleo to peteo has been the OJ.

the staples of her diet are:

pastured eggs (i have spent the last two years finding the best eggs available locally)
butter (she likes to eat it raw)
raisins, blueberries, carrots, pineapple, apples, pears, bananas
grass fed beef and lamb and lamb liver
potatoes in all forms and prepared in all ways
OJ
homemade concord grape jello gummies
homemade peat ice cream as well as alton browns OG ice cream recipes
yogurt (thank her mother for that one)
cheese
carrots
seafood (when i can get good stuff, which besides mussels, isn't that often)
chocolate
rice

the things i have taken out of her diet or drastically reduced in frequency:

cod liver oil. i gave it to her a good bit as a baby, now i am not giving it to her or her brother. I am still confused about this and a little mad that i have 100$ worth of green pastures FCLO in my cabinet that i dont know whether to use or ditch..

salmon, sardines: we get a great sockeye from a line caught small family fishery out of alaska, but now im holding back, trying to stick to shellfish and keep fish as an occasional alternative.

nuts: she used to pound cashews

pork: man we used to kill some bacon.. i try to keep it at one pack (locally sourced) a month or two
chicken: ill still KILL some homemade fried chicken on my bday though.

i am still challenged over fermented foods, yogurts etc.. mom will not stop buying it behind my back and i am not going to make a fuss.

since getting into gelatin ive stopped doing bone broths as much. we still do shank soups and ox tail soups. when i do do broths I do it the lazy way: toss everything in a crockpot on low for 24 hours and then drink by the mug with salt.

i keep her lowbluelight night light on while she sleeps


things i keep out of the house:

most all grains (unless its a special occasion, but grains are never just hanging out, that being said we had pancakes this morning)
most fermented foods (we all love them but for me personally i have a low threshold due to histamines)
boxed foods (within reason..)
we have dramatically lowered our vegetables, when we were way into paleo we did CSA's
soy


i never tell her she cant have anything, unless its straight ***t candy (she will have plenty of opportunities to eat that when shes out of my reach) but honestly she doesnt even know what candy is yet. she has also never had fast food, again delayed introduction more than restriction. but whether its genetics or just her physiology the girl never gets sick (i do supplement her 200IU carlsons vit D in the winter)


right now are home is on a Peateo diet. I had a pretty big personal falling out with paleo but I am thankful for my time with it all b/c it helped me get myself and my family to think in new ways about our diet, but yes probably like most of you all i fell off a cliff going to VLC for too long. My wife still bugs me about veggies and thinks im kinda nuts for being "so in" to paleo and then making a 180 and now applying peats recc's..

anyway the point is my three year old daughter is doing quite well on a peateo diet
 

Philomath

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I just posted in another topic about my girls being on a peat inspired diet and how I'm afraid the school food police might track me down :?
I haven't really put them on a strict Peat diet yet but I am in the new year. I've tried to limit their PUFA intake as much as possible for the past year or so but that's about it.
With the new year will come a more comprehensive diet change for them.
My oldest is 14. She is very thin and tall, has diagnosed ADHD, borderline Hashimotos, pale skin, dark circles under her eyes, oily hair and slight acne. I know some of that is puberty but much of it could be thyroid. My other daughter is 11 and is tall as well, but she has a bit of a belly on her.
Both girls have exhibited gut issues from early childhood, the older had colic and the younger was extremely constipated. Neither are very regular now.
So I'm changing their diet to something like this. Please let me know if I'm on the right track.

MORE protein! I would guess that on an average day they get 20 grams at most. I'm going to get them up to 60-80 grams through milk, cheese, cottage cheese, shrimp and gelatin. I found a recipe for home made ice cream that uses lowfat milk, eggs, Greek yogurt and gelatin. A pint could get them 60 grams of protein and I'm sure I would get zero push-back! I believe this could fix most of their issues alone but I believe the following is just as important -

Gut health! I could use some help here! I think carrots and carrot salad are an intrigal part of improving gut health. However, after that I'm at a loss. Where would Cascara and Charcoal fit in? I'm experimenting with it myself I don't think the adult guidelines should be tried on children. I have a feeling that their little guts are inflamed and could be producing serotonin or could be preventing proper absorption.

Fruit - I'm going to have them eat fruit/juice in a 3:1 ration to protein. They don't like fresh squeezed OJ and prefer strained Whole foods 365 orange juice. I guess I shouldn't fight them on this even though they should be having fresh.

Coffee - they both enjoy coffee like mine, lots of sugar and low fat milk. I bought some Starbucks cold brewed and will give them an "iced Latte" to take to school. Dr. Peat pointed out some studies where Caffeine was proven to be just as effective on ADHD as the methamphetamines so I'm going to try to give my oldest more coffee or plain caffeine powder.

Eggs - they both enjoy omelets so between omelettes and ice cream we should be fine.

Soda - I found a Pepsi product that has sugar instead of HFCS. I may let them have a can for lunch or dinner or as a treat.

Soups - I would like their lunches or dinners to be homemade soups or stews - either a jambalaya, chowder or potato soup. That all depends on my motivation though.

Fall backs include, cheese quesadilla on corn tortillas, grass fed hot dogs (no buns), pizza, baked potato's, gluten free buttered noodles, cheese cake, home made gummies.

Red light - I have a 200 watt lamp and a portable halogen light that can do the trick. We're remodeling our house and have asked for the heat light exhaust fans for the bathrooms! I suppose any extra red light will help and lord knows the girls will be spending more time in the bathroom (teen and pre-teen girls... you know it's true)

CO2 Bag Breathing - shouldn't be a problem if I can make it a habit.

Exercise - just some concentric weight lifting (kettle bells and wall squats) along with some sprinting if possible

B vitamins. - I think they'll get enough in the fruit and oj but I may give my older daughter more P5P. Haidut pointed out some studies proving its effectiveness on ADHD. I've given her a few hundred mg. before and she told me it was noticeably helpful.

Magnesium - I'm going to add the magnesium bicarbonate to their oj.

I think I will be able to get most of their vitamins and minerals with that type of diet and it won't be too restrictive. The liver will always be a problem but I'm working on an idea for that.

As always, feed-back is much appreciated.
 

tara

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Mar 29, 2014
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Hi Philomath,
I have younger kids, and still working on how to feed them. I'll post on tt eventually.
Thoughts on yours:
I think you are right to up protein considerably.
Hopefully some of the troubling symptoms will resolve with the changes you are making.
There is some common misinformtion and pressure to undereat for teenage girls. Undereating can cause a lot of issues - don't know if this applies to yours, but worth considering if they are eating enough.
 

Philomath

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Thank you Tara!
Speaking of common misinformation, my youngest hears more about the horrors of sugar than anything else.
I look forward to your posts.
 

iPeat

Member
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Oct 27, 2018
Messages
214
I know this is an old thread but I'm in a very similar situation to you guys (5 and 2 year-old). Any tips you've acquired over the last few years? I believe my son has developed gallbladder issues. I'm not saying it's from a more Peat-inspired diet, however maybe it's being exacerbated by it. Anyone else experience this?

Any of you do any supplementing? Like A,D,E,K? Calcium? Anything?

Thank you in advance.
 

Beastmode

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Feb 7, 2017
Messages
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I know this is an old thread but I'm in a very similar situation to you guys (5 and 2 year-old). Any tips you've acquired over the last few years? I believe my son has developed gallbladder issues. I'm not saying it's from a more Peat-inspired diet, however maybe it's being exacerbated by it. Anyone else experience this?

Any of you do any supplementing? Like A,D,E,K? Calcium? Anything?

Thank you in advance.

Not sure if this is helpful, but Peat suggested a well shredded carrot for our 19 month old's slow digestion/constipation. I imagine, like most symptoms, can be sorted out by clearing/sterilizing out the gut.

(We shredded 1/3 of a regular carrot and added a pinch of salt and 1/8 tsp of olive oil.) We're on day 1, but our little one enjoyed it and wanted more :)
 

iPeat

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Oct 27, 2018
Messages
214
Not sure if this is helpful, but Peat suggested a well shredded carrot for our 19 month old's slow digestion/constipation. I imagine, like most symptoms, can be sorted out by clearing/sterilizing out the gut.

(We shredded 1/3 of a regular carrot and added a pinch of salt and 1/8 tsp of olive oil.) We're on day 1, but our little one enjoyed it and wanted more :)

Thank you. I have tried that in the past, but have been very lax with it lately. I can't remember the last time I had my son eat a carrot. He's a bit of a picky eater and will literally starve himself to the point of medical intervention if he doesn't like something lol. It's a good idea. I'm gonna go for the carrot salad tomorrow. I haven't tried it with olive oil yet and that's actually supposed to be good for gallbladder issues as well.
 

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