The Dance of Mandance

[mandance]

Hey peata, thanks again for dropping in. Once you stopped completely, how long did it take to recover? Many people on the depression forums think I got off too fast and that I should reinstate my previous dose, stabilize there then taper real slow like you did...as long as it takes. I've been withdrawing for 3 weeks now...some of the real nasty things have stopped but I still feel horrible. Do you think I should go back a step? I would have to do either liquid of count beads since my last stable dose was the lowest you can get of effexor in extended release although I had been on that dose for a while. Those pills in. General make me feel crappy but I guess not as bad as now. Thanks again. Trying to figure out if I should reinstate or ride this out...hard choice.

 

[charlie]

Im so glad you got off Charlie. That is great news indeed. And you are a very strong person for being able to have gone through that nightmare. I am torn because yeah...the antidepressant forum people seem to be clueless about ray peat...but most people are. I am trying to turn them onto him more. BTW...he just emailed me if anyones interested...i posted it in the email depository

I would go over carefully the advice Ray Peat gave you. From reading what he told you, if I found myself in this situation I would be mega dosing progest E like he said. Also very small doses of thyroid too, to help the body heal faster. Haidut just posted some really interesting info on niancinamide, I would carefully consider high doses of that. However it is quite possible to make it through without any of this because I did not have these tools when I had to do it.

Anyhow...Do you think I should just ride this out, given my history of being on for 20 years since basically 8 or 9 years old. Or should I follow the advice of tapering slowly and reinstating?

I do not think any one of us should give you advice on whether to ride it out or not. This is a decision you have to make for yourself.

I will give you a couple of thoughts to consider though. You have said, that the worst is over. The worst symptoms are subsiding. It is quite possible, that if you restart the "withdrawal clock" that you will have to go through this all over again. It seems to me you have gotten through the worse of it.

So many people over there say it takes years to get over getting off but then again...everyone is different and its hard to say. I am at a loss for which direction to go because if the withdrawel gets better, I can deal with it. But if its like this for months, I dont think I can because right now its just too extreme. I called my therapist, he will probably call me back...in a moment of desperation I left a message saying that I think I want to get back on the pills.

Those "many people" are not Peating.

I guess maybe I should give it more time though? I just know there is a risk that...the longer off these pills, the harder it could be to stabalize back on them then you are really screwed.

Knowing this you should really take into consideration if its worth starting up again. I suffered horribly when I withdrew from xanax, it was a suffering I knew I just had to take. Evil does not like to let go of its grip.

What symptoms lasted for the year after the first month of hell for you? How are you now?
the symptoms i am dealing with

Chronic Chest pain (resolving)
arm tingling muscle twitchign everywhere (resolving)
bad anxiety
dizzyness
loss of balance
fog
bouts of extreme depression and hopelessness
bouts of euphoria and happiness
crying
fatigue and muscle weakness
the worst one of all - trying to fall asleep but waking up from adrenaline shocks and
waking up feeling extreme terror.

I had all of these. I also had these electrical shocks during the day, felt like electricity would fire up all through me. Talk about freaky. I just took it as my body was having to rewire itself and it was just something I had to go through. I will repeat, coming off xanax was one of the most hardest, but yet, the most rewarding experiences of my life.

Anyways sorry for the long post, I am at a crossroads and trying to make a decision on which path to take here. I know I cant be on these pills any longer...but i cant handle this hell much longer either and its ruined my relationship with the woman...and family and friends.

Oh well. If they cant support you then oh well. Its sad family has to be like that, their loss. If you communicated what you were going through and they could not find compassion in their bones to share with you, oh well. Sorry if that sounds harsh, but for family to not support you is a shame on them, not you.

I dont have much support either...luckily I work from home though. Will eat pint of haagen daaz tonight..and maybe try pregnenolone again. Might try cynoplus also. I help off on supps with all this chaos going on but now im thinking I should just do it. Although my nutritional input is terrible right now. Dropping tons of weight and no appetite.

You have us. And the community is rallying around you, pulling for you.

 

[mandance]

Thanks for the response Charlie. Yeah the worst does seem to be over but its hard to say. When I had gotten off before. I actually felt like hell for a month, then good for 3 months, then a storm of crippling anxiety and panic that got me back on the pills again.

Ive heard many people also say similar things, that months and months later, they get hit with more craziness. Thats what I worry about I guess. It is a hard choice to make though for sure. I guess I just need to think it through over the weekend and really take a look inside. And also talk to my therapist one more time about it although his advice would be limited compared to here.

I most likely will try to get some pregesterone and use that while going through this. And also cynoplus I think. I consumed a ton of sugar yesturday, probably a half gallon of OJ, and an entire pint of Haagen Daaz, and I feel better today...in fact...I might even go to the local art fair with my girlfriend. Today will be a good test to see if I can handle it. I havent been out in weeks due to withdrawals.

I appreciate the support from this forum, I really am grateful for this place, and all its people and very lucky to be here. I hope that by applying Peat methods to this process, that I can help others going through this in other communitys...they are in the dark about much of what we know here and I do think that suffering can be minimized so hopefully when I am out of this mess, and can write a success story...I can point them to them in the right direction.

 

[charlie]

Thanks for the response Charlie. Yeah the worst does seem to be over but its hard to say. When I had gotten off before. I actually felt like hell for a month, then good for 3 months, then a storm of crippling anxiety and panic that got me back on the pills again.

I call those rebounds. Everything is fine, then all of a sudden you are in the throws of withdrawal again. But knowing that you made it through the first 3 weeks, if you set it in your head then you know you can make it through these temporary rebounds, you have already won. And they do get less and less powerful. Just be ready for them. Ready with your tools you have, and your mind.

Ive heard many people also say similar things, that months and months later, they get hit with more craziness. Thats what I worry about I guess. It is a hard choice to make though for sure. I guess I just need to think it through over the weekend and really take a look inside. And also talk to my therapist one more time about it although his advice would be limited compared to here.

A day at a time.

I most likely will try to get some pregesterone and use that while going through this. And also cynoplus I think.

If I were ever to give advice to anyone about taking thyroid supplement again, it would be to start with only a 1/16th of a pill a day and wait at least 10-14 days before considering raising.

I consumed a ton of sugar yesturday, probably a half gallon of OJ, and an entire pint of Haagen Daaz, and I feel better today...in fact...I might even go to the local art fair with my girlfriend.

Bingo. If it were me I would rinse and repeat. Sugar is giving those cells the energy it needs to rewire or whatever crazy stuff it needs to do to get you out of this SSRI hell. Obviously try and get protein in there too if you can especially gelatin. Your liver is working on overtime I imagine. If OJ and ice cream is all you can do right now, so be it.

Today will be a good test to see if I can handle it. I havent been out in weeks due to withdrawals.

Wear dark sunglasses if you can. That will give you a place to "hide" if need be. It worked for me when withdrawing and feeling like a total alien.

I appreciate the support from this forum, I really am grateful for this place, and all its people and very lucky to be here. I hope that by applying Peat methods to this process, that I can help others going through this in other communitys...they are in the dark about much of what we know here and I do think that suffering can be minimized so hopefully when I am out of this mess, and can write a success story...I can point them to them in the right direction.

That is a success story that I patiently await to see. :)

You got this. You are in control now.

 

[j.]

If I were ever to give advice to anyone about taking thyroid supplement again, it would be to start with only a 1/16th of a pill a day and wait at least 10-14 days before considering raising.

Do you know how many mcgs of T3 that is?

 

[mandance]

Thanks Charlie..you are making my feel more strongly about riding this out although I know it could take a long time. Ive been on them since a kid.

I like your idea to try 1 16th of cynoplus. I got scared away from pure t3 as I took an 8th of cynomel for 3 days, after that...I completely crashed from it and couldn't move for days from exhaustion.

I have been taking gelatin with my oj as well. Also taking vitamin d magnesium in my coffee b1 and lithium tabs.

Right now the main side effects I have are just foggy, hard to use brain and dizzy but love wearing dark glasses lol

My mood is actually good...my mindset has been strong although there is some prosaic still in my system but I've been meditating a lot more and reading the Tao and it seems to really help.

 

[charlie]

If I were ever to give advice to anyone about taking thyroid supplement again, it would be to start with only a 1/16th of a pill a day and wait at least 10-14 days before considering raising.

Do you know how many mcgs of T3 that is?

No I dont. I take thiroyd from Thailand which is a dessicated thyroid. I should know the milligrams but I dont. Maybe I can find out what the dose is.

I dose by feel, its taken me around 9 months to become comfortable with dosing and I am still fine tuning that.

 

[Peata]

I can't advise you on what to do, only offer my own experiences here.

My first couple times ever trying to get off one of these meds, I reduced my dosage by as much as I could by cutting the pills. But I still couldn't reduce it gradually enough that way. The body craves every last fraction of a milligram of these meds, after all. I had horrible withdrawal, and I went back on the med. The relief was immediate and awesome. When I tried to reduce again, I had a better idea of the hell to come, and reduced the pills as much as I could once more and went through the same hell as before. I toughed out the worst of the withdrawal on the couch for weeks. What a mess. Licking pill dust helped some when I just didn't think I could bear it anymore.

I think a very slow and gradual taper was best for me, and the liquid Paxil that I took the last couple times helped me taper much more slowly and with a lot less agony. Probably since you've been on the meds for so long, the withdrawal might be even harder on you, so it's good you're under the care of a doctor. Most docs probably don't realize what we go through to get off these pills, so a more gradual taper might not occur to them.

Mandance, some advice I can offer is to stop reading on the internet about someone having permanent withdrawal symptoms and thinking this will apply to you. Just do your best to forget about that. You don't know what those people's particular body systems are like and what other health problems they might have had that contributed to symptoms. You are not them. Don't think about months and years out in the future right now, just focus on getting through the symptoms you have now. The rest will sort itself out over time.

With me, yes I did have problems with anxiety and panic after going off the SSRI's, because as I said before, they were not cured by the medication. But I'm proof it isn't the end of the world that anxiety came back. I guess I'm pretty determined I'm not going to let it ruin my life, and so I've always looked for ways to help myself and work on myself. I realize somewhere in my past, I developed "faulty wiring", or probably I was born with it, because I can recall experiencing anxiety even as a young child. But I don't accept that it has to control my life. I may never be as consistently calm as some people I know who seem to let everything roll off them -it just comes natural to them, but I CAN learn to "re-wire" some of my brain to be calmer more of the time. And I have come a long way!

You can do this, Mandance. I didn't even know about Peat when I was where you are now. To be honest, the things that saved me were tapering uber slowly with liquid Paxil in syringes, pouring out my pain/distracting myself with writing stories & listening to music, sips of wine during the worst of it all in the evenings (I can ONLY say what helped me and I do not advocate doing something that could lead to more anxiety/alcoholism/other problems, so know I'm just listing my own personal experience here.) Also ginger pills for nausea, Benadryl to help with sleep.

Again I'm just relaying my own experience that worked for me, you should definitely check with your doctor and get their advice.

As I mentioned before, if I'd known about Peat then, I would have used plenty of his protocols for diet - sugar, aspirin, caffeine, gelatin, etc. I can see it being really good for the anxiety, the pain, and the system-upheaval of withdrawal.

There is something called "rebounds" where the withdrawal symptoms come back, but this starts happening less often. There wasn't a particular set time I could clock or mark on the calendar that I could expect symptoms to just be over and done. But once you get so far along, you realize how far you've come. You know the worst is behind and you can do it. You will be done with withdrawals for good one day and you just have to keep going a day at a time and try your best to live life until then.

I know right now it seems you are in this weird "undead" state where you don't have a life, all you have are pain, uncertainty, weird symptoms, etc. and you are the one trapped in your body and brain with it all while the world goes on around you. But this is temporary. How temporary, (weeks, months?) no one can say. But YOU WILL come out on the other side and have a great life. There are countless people who have lumbered this path before you, and one day you will be helping those in agony who are walking it behind you.

 

[charlie]

Mandance, some advice I can offer is to stop reading on the internet about someone having permanent withdrawal symptoms and thinking this will apply to you. Just do your best to forget about that. You don't know what those people's particular body systems are like and what other health problems they might have had that contributed to symptoms. You are not them. Don't think about months and years out in the future right now, just
focus on getting through the symptoms you have now. The rest will sort itself out over time.

Mandace, please read the paragraph above closely. This is another powerful tool in your arsenal.

When I first started coming off xanax, I was all over the drug addiction boards reading and reading and worrying and worrying, OMG, this person had this happen to them OMG its going to happen to me. This person did this and this and OMG the sky is falling for everyone. So then, I would turn around and all of a sudden these things were happening to me, I was actually manifesting them in my mind and making them reality. So right then, I knew what was happening. I immediately swore off those addiction sites and never looked at one again. I immediately blocked out of my mind all these bad things people were saying that was going to happen, and stayed in the reality of what was actually happening. Not some reality that you can paint for yourself due to other peoples thoughts/experience. This is your experience, let it be yours. You are in control.

I know right now it seems you are in this weird "undead" state where you don't have a life, all you have are pain, uncertainty, weird symptoms, etc. and you are the one trapped in your body and brain with it all while the world goes on around you. But this is temporary. How temporary, (weeks, months?) no one can say. But YOU WILL come out on the other side and have a great life. There are countless people who have lumbered this path before you, and one day you will be helping those in agony who are walking it behind you.

^So much this, especially the last sentence.

You got this. Go enjoy time with your girl. Any withdrawal stuff pops up, work through it and know in your head its not going to beat you. This is your job right now, and a very important worthwhile one.

 

[mandance]

Peata, thanks so much for the encouragement. Your posts mean a lot and are very inspiring. Again, I've very grateful for this group..its the best. And you're right...I seem to feel mentally fine when I don't worry about others journeys or how long mine could take...I'm alive now and that's what counts.

The strength you Charlie and others have is amazing. It's tough for sure...on knowing which path to take...on one hand...my withdrawals are hell...but it does seem like some of the initial bad symptoms are fading but at the same Time...I'm far from functional so reinstated and tapering slowly also sounds nice so that I could at least do things.

I will have to give it some serious thought. My worry though is that I get back on...taper off for a long time only to find the withdrawals are just as intense still and that I have to do it all over again...but the fear of riding it out now is like you say...there is no way to know how long I could be like this so this is a very hard decision.

I do know one thing though, I know I can do this, I have to do this. And I'm glad to know I'm not alone. I hope I can help others like you are helping me. When I arrive at that point. I think I do ok getting by as long as I don't tell myself my brain is permanently damaged and I won't recover bad be handicapped...I guess that's my worst fear having been on so long since, childhood...but being 29 hopefully its not too late. I do know now is the time though...I can't make more plans and move forward until I slay this beast.

Thanks again...I love you guys :)

 

[mandance]

When I first started coming off xanax, I was all over the drug addiction boards reading and reading and worrying and worrying, OMG, this person had this happen to them OMG its going to happen to me. This person did this and this and OMG the sky is falling for everyone. So then, I would turn around and all of a sudden these things were happening to me, I was actually manifesting them in my mind and making them reality. So right then, I knew what was happening. I immediately swore off those addiction sites and never looked at one again. I immediately blocked out of my mind all these bad things people were saying that was going to happen, and stayed in the reality of what was actually happening. Not some reality that you can paint for yourself due to other peoples thoughts/experience. This is your experience, let it be yours. You are in control.

I know right now it seems you are in this weird "undead" state where you don't have a life, all you have are pain, uncertainty, weird symptoms, etc. and you are the one trapped in your body and brain with it all while the world goes on around you. But this is temporary. How temporary, (weeks, months?) no one can say. But YOU WILL come out on the other side and have a great life. There are countless people who have lumbered this path before you, and one day you will be helping those in agony who are walking it behind you.

^So much this, especially the last sentence.

You got this. Go enjoy time with your girl. Any withdrawal stuff pops up, work through it and know in your head its not going to beat you. This is your job right now, and a very important worthwhile one.

You are so right man...I feel so much better when I dont go reading stuff on the net. I think I might be done with that other forum, it seems to be a negative place even though I know those people mean well and want to get better...but today was AN AMAZING DAY!!!

Obviously the war rages on...but I cant believe how good today has been to me. I woke up, feeling better and actually went to a fair with thousands of people, and felt fine. I then went and test rode some new bicycles and then me and the lady had a nice dinner on the pier in Seattle and watched ducks, what an incredible day...I had zero serious issues. Still feel out of it yes, it slow..but overall....im amazed I got out of the house and did all these things. Im grateful for today...Im not attached to today though, no more than im attached to the bad times either. I will count today as a blessing, and the advice you all have given me. I am still considering reinstating pills, but I might ride it out a little while longer...I know there is still much hell ahead of me im sure....but I do in some ways...feel like the worst is behind me (knock on wood) but one day at a time here...im focusing on getting lots of sugar, and protein...seems to really make a difference.

Thanks again for the kind words...the encouragement and support means more than I can possibly express on here, it really tickles my heart to be honest. At dinner I even thought about it...despite all the suffering, I feel like a really lucky guy overall. Ill keep you guys updated on my Peat diet, health and road to reclaiming my brain.

:)

 

[mandance]

Ahh well it seems Sunday was too good to be true. I feel terrible again. Its different though...i feel much more disconnected now and my cognitive abilities are going to ***t. I think I might have to get back on my pills and slowly taper over a year or more. I hope my brain isnt screwed from being on these so long and since a young age. Even on the pills I feel shitty but not nearly this bad. Ive had brain fog and cognitive issues for a year now...but this is insane, I lose balance, hard to drive etc...Im sure Charlie and Peata know about that. Its going to be hard though...effexor doesnt have a liquid version to taper off of. I just dont know what to do anymore..sorry to keep bringing it up...I do feel like im losing it and I am becoming handicapped.

I guess no matter which path i choose, there are no promises either way. I feel seriously brain damaged and unable to take care of myself...learned helplessness at its finest. I just want a second chance at life, I hope its not too late after so long on these things. I laid in bed all day yesturday. These withdrawals are starting to traumatize me I think...I try hard to meditate, focus on positive thoughts and do everything I can.

Peata, how long did you say you tapered off for? And even with you, tapering slow...how long were you like this for? Sorry again..I wish I had better more positive updates. Hopefully soon.

 

[charlie]

Maybe try repeating what you did on Saturday.

 

[mandance]

I did try to do some stuff. I went for a walk...but I just felt do disconnected from reality that it really just scared me so I went back home and laid down and then couldnt really move the rest of the day. Its crazy being off these pills in a way...I was always a passionate person on pills, im a professional artist. But being off of them...I feel I care so much more about things. I think that makes it harder also. I think I could endure this but I dont know for how long...summer was a bad time to get off haha. I wish I never went to that other forum...I cant keep thinking about all those people telling me im screwed if I dont take the time to taper off properly and that it could be like this for years possibly or worse. I know I need to block that from my mind now though and focus on my own path. I guess when you are in this hole you just cant see the light so to speak and you think you are doomed to become one of those unfortunate victims of medical miscalculations where you slip between the cracks of society as handicapped person....scraping by off the system with no chance at a normal family life or anything. Thats the worst fear I guess. Ill try to keep strong though...actually having a job to do helps some...im lucky to be able to work full time from home doing art so that helps distract my mind...and chatting with people.

 

[charlie]

You will get through this just fine and will not be ruined for life. Anyone who tells you that is an idiot.

By repeating what you did on Saturday, I mean tons of sugar.

Sunday you went out, and probably did not eat Peat. You ate out and I am sure it was not Peat. You also used a lot of energy getting around and interacting with your girl. So you used valuable energy and it did not carry over and today you body does not have the energy it needs to heal. Repeat what you did Saturday for many days in a row. Conserve your energy so you can heal. Expect ups and downs.

 

[mandance]

Yeah, I meant saturday I went out. Yesturday I drank mostly OJ...didnt really eat any food though. Ill keep trying. So you dont think being on these pills your entire life since childhood could seriously screw someone up? I asked Peat about it, he sent me this study..I posted it in the ask for help section...not sure what he meant by it though. Ill try to keep up the sugar today. Thanks man

 

[charlie]

The body has an amazing capacity to heal when the right fuel is provided. Especially the brain.

 

[Carac]

Yes, ups and downs. I unexpectedly had a bad weekend too. Just out of the blue -- I was in bed most of the day Saturday and all day Sunday -- throwing up, tired but could not sleep,headache, depressed, so many things I wanted to do and could not do them. Had no idea why, or when it would stop! I hate it when I feel bad now... I am getting used to feeling good, then it is sometimes more difficult when I do have a bad day again. I just try to remember that it will pass ... everything changes... nothing stays the same... that what I tell myself anyway.

Just like Charlie said, keep doing what worked for you last... keep eating sugar, keep making art, keep chatting... this community is listening!

 

[mandance]

Thanks guys...im still toying with the idea of getting back on and tapering slowly but I guess I just need to maybe wait a while longer and see how it goes. Carac, i am unfamiliar with your situation, are you also trying to get off antidepressants or something else? Sorry to hear you had a rough weekend but your thought process is perfect and you are right...it wont stay the same it cant. Thanks for the insights man...appreciate this communty...its been really positive so far here and tons of great stuff to read!

 

[charlie]

Ice cream has some progesterone in it. Eat a bunch of ice cream like you did the day before you had the awesome day with your girl.