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Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomnia

Discussion in 'Logs' started by stevensmith, Jul 23, 2012.

  1. stevensmith

    stevensmith Member

    I was 17 years old when I became overwhelmed with a horrible case of secondary hypogonadism, or low testosterone. I also had insomnia and general fatigue and malaise throughout the day. Every day was a struggle and getting through 9 hours of classes day in and day out was hell. I became a social recluse. I didn't want to talk to anybody, and my embarrassment with hypogonadism, erectile dysfunction, and low libido, made it even worse. So attached to my male ego, I didn't want to tell anybody the truth. But I was hurting inside. I was alone and felt that nobody could help me. After 6 months of depression and feeling like I was not fully attached to my body (I seemed to lose feeling and awareness of the world around me by being immersed in my illness), I finally broke down in tears to my mother and told her everything.

    She took me to several doctors, but all of them pushed me away because they thought I was "too young to have these problems." After I saw 3 MD's, I went to a urologist and had my testosterone levels checked. Yup, I was extremely deficient in testosterone. My levels measured that of an 80 year old man. Over the course of several months, they consistently measured in the 212-240 ng/dl range. At 17 years old, they should have been close to 1000 ng/dl!!! My urologist told me to come back in a year and that if my levels didn't improve, he would put me on TRT. Testosterone replacement therapy at 17 years old? And for the rest of my life? Nope, that picture didn't seem right to me. How could I go from being a completely healthy 17 year old, happy, horny, and energetic teen, to feeling like a piece of **** everyday with no will to fight back, no longer any interest in sports, no virility, and no sex drive or function?

    The turning point for me was when I became very angry that not even professionals could help me, and I decided that I was on my own in my journey back to health. As a result, I grew a strong will to succeed and overcome adversity.

    Jump ahead four years, I am now 21 years old (almost 22) and have finally defeated my arch nemesis (hypogonadism). It took me four years to do it, but I did it. However to get here, I suffered many pitfalls. I followed many diet gurus, and in some instances, actually went backwards in my journey back to health.

    Over the course of the last 4 years, I....
    - spent nearly $2000 on supplements in any attempt to correct my illness. I would try anything and everything, as long as it promised me a full recovery, or even a temporary escape.
    - tried dangerous therapies, such as a shot of intramuscular triptorelin, which probably wasn't even the real thing.
    - tried zinc and copper electrotherapy on my testicles
    -tried ozone therapy
    - went on a "standard" low carb paleo diet for 2 years, then a low carb raw meat paleo diet for 1.5 years (which 6 months of this time was a ketogenic, all-meat diet).

    With all of the money and time I spent, nothing worked, and I had mixed results all the way through each experiment. For example, sometimes my testosterone would raise all the way up to 500, and then a few months later, it went down to 300. Libido and sexual function improved, but was also incredibly sporadic and unpredictable, and my insomnia barely got better, with marginal results at best. Though I would get mixed results with everything I tried, I always kept my strong will to succeed, which was instilled in me when I first became outraged with the way the current medical system is, turning away 17 year-olds with real problems. I always kept faith, and faith that I would beat my enemy.

    Then it finally happened. I picked up a book by Broda Barnes called "Hypothyroidism; the Unsuspected Illness." I was astonished how so many health conditions were remedied by fixing the thyroid and metabolism. I began studying physiology and its relationship with the endocrine system, and how food could change the direction of the endocrine system to favor a positive or negative outcome, depending on which food was consumed. I also studied circadian rythms and other lifestyle factors that correlated with a healthy endocrine system.

    On one chance afternoon, I came across a man by the name of Stepan Stastny. He was eating like 300-400g of carbs per day, which at the time I thought was totally crazy... I was still following the low carb dogma of sisson, lustig, kresser, vonderplanitz, carl lanore, etc, etc....

    However, while I ignorantly argued my viewpoints with Stepan, I couldn't help but realize that this guy was the picture of health. His testosterone was at great levels (not always associated with good health, but still a possible indicator), his vitality was apparent, and his attitude was admirable. Stepan, along with Danny Roddy also had hypogonadism at one point in their lives, and overcame it in the same fashion (following Ray Peat). One day when I was arguing with Stepan and wondering why my low carb diet wasn't working, he told me to shut the F**k up and eat some carbs, and get a boner!!! Not many people may respond well to this kind of behavior, but I responded well to it. He also directed me to the works of Ray Peat, who I later realized followed Barnes' work. After following the Stastny and Peat way of eating, I made a complete recovery in about 5 months time. Because I was able to help my thyroid come back to normal, and subsequently normalize my steroid hormones, my hypogonadism was defeated, and my testosterone was restored.

    I now enjoy all of the benefits of a fully fertile and virile male. I no longer have insomnia because not only do I get enough sleep (8-10hrs) every night, but my quality of sleep is also better, due to the fact that since my thyroid is good, my nerves are able to fully relax. This can be seen in a achilles reflex test. If your nerves are slow to relax, chances are, your thyroid is bad, and you probably have poor sleep.

    After all of these years dealing with this issue, I gained a lot of knowledge and wisdom. In my studies, I realized that sleep is probably one of the most important things to consider if you have endocrine problems. A full nights rest can restore your thyroid hormone (T3) to normal levels, and of course, you can't have a full nights rest, of quality restorative sleep without a good thyroid. So in a sense, the system works in a positive feedback mechanism and is regulatory in an upwards or downwards fashion. In other words, if the thyroid is good, then your sleep quality will be good, and because of the good quality sleep, your thyroid hormone will be restored, resulting in a good thyroid, and then the process starts all over again. What else besides a good nights rest dictates whether your thyroid is good or not? Proper nutrition, which supports a good thyroid. Duh!!!

    Thank you Ray Peat, Stepan Stastny, and Danny Roddy.... I salute you...
  2. j.

    j. Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    great story!
  3. charlie

    charlie Administrator

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Wow! Steven you are a total inspiration! And you absolutely give me hope that I can turn my health around with the right approach. I sincerely appreciate you telling your journey, and a big congratulations to you for healing yourself. Your story I am sure will help a lot of other people realize that they can do it to. You have truly inspired me. Thank you.

    Being so young and pulling yourself out of the hole that you did, and by yourself, man I just can't express how awesome that it. Realizing that modern medicine is not much help these days, and finding the way for yourself, right on!

    I have 3 questions for you.

    What time do you usually go to bed and do you try to stick to it every night?

    What do you consider proper nutrition? Do you mind posting a sample menu for a day along with supplements to? If not the supplements, definitely the meal plan for a day would be awesome so I can gauge if I am heading the right way with nutrition.

    And do you use any of the lights that Ray Peat suggests?

    Again, many thanks. Big pat on the back to you my friend. :)
  4. stevensmith

    stevensmith Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Thank you for your kind words Charlie. I think the most important thing is what you're not eating as opposed to what you are.

    Peat suggests to "eat to increase the metabolic rate rather than any particular food," and I wholeheartedly agree. It's important to consider the temperature and pulse. If the pulse is high and you have a normal temperature, then your adrenalin is probably way too high. Typically this goes in hand with a low peripheral temperature, and high internal temperature, such as cold hands, feet and genitals. However, if this is you, then your temperature reading might read 98.6. This is a false reading for thyroid because adrenalin acts by pulling heat away from the periphery to heat the core.

    However if your pulse is really low, like in the 60's, 70's, or lower, then its apparent that your thyroid is not working properly to cause the heart to work adequately. Running and other endurance exercises, even long marathon weight lifting workouts, can easily cause the problems of high adrenalin/low pulse, low thyroid, etc.... Ideal temp and pulse, suggestive of a good thyroid is 98.6+ and a pulse of about 80-105.

    Since thyroid hormone is restored with rest, ideally, if somebody is in need for recovery, homeostasis, or needs to fix themselves of their maladies, probably one of the best things they can do is stop working out all together. Working out is a stress by itself and should be taken seriously. Before one works out, they should consider how they are going to recover their T3 quickly, and also consider how much the workout will lower their T3. If 2 hours after the workout, the temperature is lower than before, then the workout is not helping you, its hurting you. The lower metabolic rate will prevent muscle gain and fatloss, so all this hype about working out hard, and for long durations is bullshit.

    Then on to sleep. I don't really practice what I preach when I talk about sleep. This has always been one of my hardest things to work on. I am a night owl, and it is my biggest problem. Sometimes when I go to bed way too late, like last night (2am), my morning temperatures are a tad too low (today- 97.7). When I go to bed early (9-11pm) my temperatures are always high (97.9-98.6). Its usually going to be lower in the morning, and then once you get food in you, by mid morning, it should rise to 98.6 or higher ideally. Rest and sleep restore thyroid hormone, which help you sleep easier the next day, so its a revolving cycle that has to be tweaked.

    Then onto diet. There are several things that are controllable when it comes to diet. Since these things can be measured and the results can be measured, this gives you power and increases your will to continue, rather than following some stupid paleo diet or vegan diet, which is supposed to work on the premise that simply avoiding "unnatural" foods will heal you. Those kinds of diets are frustrating because they leave you broke and wondering when they will make you healthy, when they'll miraculously and magically work. The answer is never....

    Peat eating gives one hope because it produces MEASURABLE results rather than arbitrary whims of health.
    The things that can be controlled are.

    1) PUFA- Peat believes there are no essential fatty acids. This is true. They are present in just about everything and small amounts is all that's needed. You could probably be fine on .0001g PUFA per day, and this is always unavoidable no matter what you do. Excess PUFA causes most of the problems diet related. It does this by many actions, but the main ones are prostaglandin stimulation, PGF2, Serotonin upregulation, estrogen upregulation, prostaglandin mediated aromatization, toxic lipid peroxidation, lipofuscin, oxidation and high reactability with other compounds, free radicals, etc..

    When talking about testosterone, PUFA stimulates prostaglandins, which not only create excess inflammation, but cause aromatization in the body, which would otherwise not happen so intensely. Aromatase is the enzyme that converts testosterone to estrogen, and PUFA is largely responsible for the bulk of it. When adopting a Peat type diet, it can take up to 4 years to rid the body of stored PUFA, so patience is needed.

    2) Serotonin- decreases testosterone and works with estrogen to do this. It also antagonizes dopamine, which in turn decreases testosterone.

    3) Fiber- increases endotoxin and gut serotonin and subsequently total body serotonin. Serotonin works to increase estrogen and lower testosterone. Fiber also causes constipation and colon issues. It's good to avoid it for the most part.

    4) lactic acid- prevents proper cellular respiration and depletes the liver of glycogen. You need liver glycogen to make T3. Lactic acid is an energy waster.

    5) phosphorous- too much causes a catabolic state and anti-bone/protein state, which in turn lowers thyroid, inc estrogen, etc...

    How do we fix these issues? PUFA problems can be remedied by increasing the ratio of saturated fat to PUFA, and by also lowering the amount of PUFA one eats. A good goal is to get to less than 2g PUFA per day. And if there is more, it should be balanced by a higher consumption of saturated fat. Eating mostly low PUFA meats like red meat, and white fish/shellfish, and ommitting chicken, pork, seal, and other high PUFA foods helps. Never eat vegetable oils, or other high PUFA oils like mayonnaise, and never eat nuts, seeds, grains, etc...

    Serotonin issues can be fixed by adequate nutrition, getting enough B6, found in fruit, meat and liver, and also by limiting the amount of tryptophan (converts to serotonin) in the diet, which can be achieved by NOT eating muscle meat, and by eating collagenous meats like shanks, oxtail, beef neck, gelatin, etc...

    Fiber issues can be fixed by both omitting high fiber foods like grains and green vegetables. Starches should be limited, and should always be eaten with a raw carrot or bamboo shoots, because the fiber in them prevent bacterial endotoxin, and is "good" fiber in context.

    Lactic acid issues can be fixed by limiting exercise to an appropriate level, and omitting high lactic acid foods like cottage cheese and other fermented dairy products like yogurt, Kifer, etc...

    Phosphorous issues can be fixed by having a high calcium to phosphorous ratio. This is achieved by drinking lots of milk and eating calcium rich foods. Possibly also adding a calcium supplement of pure oyster shell calcium.

    Other important notes: its important to get adequate carbohydrates, typically greater than 300g per day, to ensure adequate liver glycogen to make adequate T3, and also ensure that you are using primarily glucose for energy, since free fatty acids can lower thyroid function. Its important to consume liver once per week to get adequate vitamin A, and other fat soluble vitamins, especially if one is on a low fat diet. Its important to get enough minerals like sodium, calcium, potassium, magnesium, etc... Get adequate protein to ensure proper liver glucoronidation and detoxification of estrogen. Low protein diets also cause hypothyroidism.

    What do I eat on a daily basis?

    I regularly eat/drink:

    -1/2 gallon to 1 gallon of 1% milk per day, mixed into a shake with 2 tsp salt, 1/2 cup cane sugar, 1/2 cup beef gelatin. Shake well to mix the contents. Whole milk is okay, but sometimes the extra fat is very fattening.
    - some animal protein: such as collagenous meats, like oxtail, shanks, beef neck, and sometimes chuck roast,
    - some oysters every week due to their high zinc/copper/tyrosine levels, good for testosterone and thyroid. Oysters are probably the best natural mineral supplement. All other shellfish are inferior, so my philosophy is "don't bother, spend your money on oysters." Crab and other white fish like cod and solefish, are good choices.
    - 1/4 -1/2 gallon of orange juice. Very good magnesium and potassium levels.
    -1 tbsp of coconut oil, with coconut oil added to my food for frying purposes.
    - 1 raw carrot per day

    - liver once per week

    I drink all of my liquid food before 5 or 6pm, to ensure that by 11pm, I don't need to pee anymore, which ensures good sleep. I save my solid foods for dinner, which also helps me sleep better due to slower digestion.

    I supplement with unique e vitamin e, especially if I am going to go out for dinner and I know the food will be cooked with PUFA. I also supplement with dessicated thyroid (thiroyd) if I need it. Its always ok to take as long as the thyroid doesn't get too hyper, in which case, you would stop taking it. Traditional cultures always ate the thyroid gland frequently, along with progesterone and pregnenolone-rich brain, so the whole bit about "taking dessicated thyroid is cheating," is bullshit.... If you need it, take it!

    Once in a while I'll make a kale broth to get enough vitamin k.

    That's pretty much all I take for supplements. I try to make food my true supplements, like oysters, and liver.

    There is an androgenic steroid that can possibly help to reverse androgen deficiency. It's called proviron, and it actually doesn't suppress your HPTA, which is what most androgenic steroids do. It's basically oral DHT, and DHT isn't as suppressive, if at all, as testosterone. I suppose this is because testosterone can aromatize to estrogen and DHT cant'. Estrogen is said to be like 200x more suppressive to the HPTA axis, than testosterone, and that's probably why steroid users have shrunken testes, and low endogenous testosterone. If you can find REAL proviron, try it temporarily, but I think its really hard to find the real thing, and there are plenty of counterfeits. It's used in Europe though.

    But I think in the long run, dessicated thyroid is a better supplement than proviron, and proviron might possibly be good short term to reverse hypogonadism.
  5. DMF

    DMF Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Alot of stuff going on there Steve. Thanks for sharing it. I'm still in the process of repairing my broken life(health).
  6. nwo2012

    nwo2012 Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Yes thanks for posting and glad its going well for you. I will put up one myself and for mrs nwo2012 when I have the chance.
  7. gummybear

    gummybear Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Great story!!

    Who is this Stepan Stastny? I googled him but didn't find anything.
  8. lazz

    lazz Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    bump...great story and info however PROVIRON is and AAS (Steroid) and it will supress your HPTA..hes wrong about it..
  9. zorrich

    zorrich Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    "-1/2 gallon to 1 gallon of 1% milk per day, mixed into a shake with 2 tsp salt, 1/2 cup cane sugar, 1/2 cup beef gelatin. Shake well to mix the contents."

    Do you add that amount of salt/sugar/gelatin in total or to each shake you make? How many shakes do you typically make with 1 gallon of milk?

    The reason I ask is because I have been salting my beverages to help with fluid intake, but have not been anywhere near 2tsp.

    EDIT: And BTW, great story :) Glad you've found your way!
  10. Jenn

    Jenn Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Not my recipe, but the salt is in relation to the sugar...at least in my own eating.
  11. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Need help with similar condition as OPs.

    Hello. This is my first post here. I know this is an old post. But I hope the OP can reply.

    I'm having low testosterone as well and I'm told that I have Secondary Hypogonadism, meaning that my pituitary is not releasing enough hormones to stimulate testosterone production. I'm 36. The problem started to be unbearable 4 years ago. But there was a slow progressing fatigue for many years prior that.

    What should I read, exactly, to follow the OPs path to fix my metabolism (assuming that my testosterone problem is caused by low metabolism)??? OP mentioned Broda Barnes' book. Anything else???

    Besides, if I do the thermometer test as soon as I wake up in the morning and it turns out that my temperature is within 97.8 and 98.2 - does that mean that my metabolism is ok and I don't need to try to fix it anyhow?

    OP, please respond. Or anybody else!

  12. tara

    tara Moderator

    Re: Need help with similar condition as OPs.

    :welcome Aragorn
    Just noticed this post went unanswered last month.
    I'd recommend reading/listening to Ray Peat's articles and/or interviews. The interviews are usually at a simpler level than the articles. I find I get more out of both when I read again - he packs in a lot of information.

    I gather that measuring both temps and pulse gives a better picture of thyroid function than either alone. Noting temperature of extremities as well as core can be part of the picture, as well as other symptoms. Together you can get a better idea of whether temperature and/or pulse are being elevated by stress hormones or are being sustained by healthy thyroid function or are low because of low thyroid.

    If you want more opinions from us here, you might get more if you post a bit more info - eg what are you eating, and how is your health in other ways, and maybe a bit of health history? If you want to you can post lab results - some people here are good at spotting useful patterns in the numbers even if they are within the ranges the endocrinologists consider 'normal'.
  13. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Well, basically I'm at the end of the rope, so to speak. I'm experiencing gross, unbearable fatigue which makes me unable to function in life. It's a miracle that I still didn't lose my job since I can barely work. I feel like I'm 95 and dying. It's even hard to talk and my speech became slurred, brain fog, panic attacks... I'm now 36, first symptoms started when I was around 16- 19 and it has been a very gradual decline since.

    I've tried many natural approaches, herbs, diets, spent all my savings on those and they got me nowhere. Every natural "group" condemns all the other ones.... but none gave me any results. The ONLY case of naturally curing symptoms of low testosterone I found was this OP's story here.

    Yes, I can assume that it may be thyroid that causes my troubles, but I can't get clear info on Ray Peat's approach, the articles and interviews are all scattered all over the subject of health.... What I've been able to understand so far is that sugar is needed for metabolism of proteins, proteins are needed for proper thyroid function and proteins should be of right kind - and that seems to be the base of Ray Peats approach. But, as any newbie to Peataterism, at this point I DO have huge reservations about eating tons of sugar. I get candida overgrowth when eating too much carbs. My current blood glucose is 101, borderline high, and I lost many teeth due to eating sugar when I was a kid (I THINK that's due to sugar). That being said, I do currently eat plenty of honey and organic meat as well as butter.

    5 years ago I went on a wrong diet because someone convinced me that my tiredness is caused by eating meat. I basically became vegetarian for 2 years. It could be a coincidence, but during this time my decline in energy was more rapid, followed by initial boost in energy. Later on, being on that diet I did notice that I started breathing slower, and I think (but never measured) that my heart rate slowed down. I was also having trembling in my hands sometimes and some sudden fast hands movements which were not noticeable by other people but that scared the hell out of me and looked like I was having neurological problems... I also had numbness in my arms. I went back to my normal diet 2 years later. Trembling, numbness and sudden movements stopped, but the fatigue remained and is now actually getting worse slowly, despite of return to my normal diet. I don't digest food without supplementing with HCL and enzymes. Without those supplements I get alternating diarrhea and constipation all the time. I do have H. Pylori which I'm afraid to treat with antibiotics and don't know any other way.

    I know you may not approve my current diet but let me give you an idea of what it is. Organic meat, broth, some fish, eggs, potato, green salads with olive oil, some flax seeds oil, homemade kefir, butter, honey, brown rice and spelt crackers. Sometimes chocolate. Green tea. Chicory. It's interesting that my fatigue does not seem to be dependent on diet...

    A "controversial" natural practitioner (I'll leave it at that) said I have a small brain tumor that prevents release of hormones from Pituitary. A brain MRI in 2012 showed all fine. One doctor wants me to get a new brain MRI due to low LH and FSH but I don't want to do it since there's no cure for these things anyway so I don't want to know if I have a brain tumor. Besides chronic fatigue, I don't have any major diseases.

    I can't say that my hands/feet are cold. Sometimes I do experience some "hot flushes". But I don't know how that compares to a healthy person so maybe that's normal to feel that way.

    - Currently my average level of total testosterone is around 250 (normal range: 350 - 1080).
    Free T - 128 (47 -244).
    Bioavailable Testosterone - 372 (131 - 682).
    Sex hormone binding globulin - 19 (11 - 80).
    Follicle stimulating hormone - 2.8 (1.6 - 9.7).
    Estradiol - 23 (14 - 43).
    Cortisol - 20.7 (2.3 - 19.4).
    TSH (Nov 2012): 3.07 (0.450 - 4.5)
    TSH (May 2013): 5.21 (0.51 - 6.27).
    TSH (July 2013): 3.0 (1.1 - 12.5).
    TSH (July 2013): 2.20 (0.51 - 6.27).
    TSH (apr 2014): 3.36 (0.450 - 4.5)
    (so TSH tends to be on the higher side).

    LH and FSH are always on the low side: LH around 2.5 to 5 (1.7 - 8.6).
    FSH around 3.0 (1.5 - 12.4).

    My White Blood Count is low: 3.6 (3.4 - 10.8) and no doctor knows why. I don't know whether it was always low or just during recent 3 years.

    My heart rate is usually 75 - 80. Body temperature during the day is usually 97.8. Never measured early morning.

    Also 2 out of 4 blood tests for Lyme disease came borderline high but all doctors are saying I don't have Lyme. The only diagnosis doctors came up with was Hypogonadism (low Testosterone) and they want me to get on Testosterone replacement for life but I'm still refusing it.

    Is there a way to know for sure that my thyroid is not doing well and is the cause if my condition? Is there a way to make sure I don't get diabetes if I jump into Ray Peat diet?

    Please let me know if you need more info from me.
  14. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,
    Sorry you're having such a struggle.
    There is a lot of intertwined info in Peat's articles - not easy to work out a plan from reading them. In theend, figuring out from all the information you can get what i going to help you is part of the process of recovery.
    I'm not an expert, and have not solved my own key problems yet, but I have some thoughts. Others would probably see different things.
    You will be the one who can best tell what works for you and what doesn't with experimentation.
    There are lots of different threads to pull in diet - providing good fuel, protein, micronutrients, reducing toxins (incl PUFAs) and gut irritants, and in other aspects like getting sunlight, keeping warm, and maintaining good CO2 levels. Which make the most diffference varies from person to person.

    The TSH looks consistently on the high side, indicating a bit of a shortage of thyroid. I tend to favour focussing on diet and lifestyle first, because they may resolve a lot of problems. And if that is not enough, you need a nutritious diet to support any hormone supplementation anyway. Do you know what your cholesterol levels were like? You need a good substrate of cholesterol from which to produce the steroid hormones, including testosterone.

    Diabetes: I don't think there are any guarantees, but some factors may help. I have been concerned about diabetes in the past, and reading Peat's article on sugar and diabetes (http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/gl ... etes.shtml) turned my ideas upside down. Getting PUFA as low as possible may help reduce further damage to the pancreas. Peat tends to recommend sugar in th e form of fruit/ juice, milk and honey, with refined sucrose more as a supplement or occasaional filler whe good fruit and honey aren't available. Fruit and milk bring with them minerals (eg magnesium and potassium) that help with the metabolism of sugar. Sucrose is half sugar and half glucose, fruit and honey often have similar proportions or a bit more fructose, whereas starches break down to all glucose. If I'm reading Peat right, it is the glucose that pushes up insulin, and that has trouble entering cells to be oxidised for energy when there is insulin resistance or a shortage of insulin. Fructose can be metabolised for energy even without normal insulin levels. The main problem with diabetes is the difficulty/inability of cells to oxidise sugars efficiently to produce usable energy to keep everything functioning. So sucrose and other fructose-glucose mixes are less likely than starches (or other glucose only carbs) to cause diabetic issues. If the rest of your diet is rich in minerals, you can get away with a bit of refined sugar, but fruit, milk, and honey are better if they work for you. The Randle 'cycle' may also come into play - high levels of circulating fats - either from a fatty meal or from fats liberated from stores under stress conditions - can suppress the ability of cells to oxidise sugar. So a lowish fat intake and keeping blood sugars high enough not to trigger stress reactions can help keep sugar burning happening. For those of use whose liver glycogen storage capacity is weak, this seems to mean eating (or drinking) fairly frequently.
    I used to get recurring thrush infections, but have had very little trouble with them. I think the improvement coincided with starting to eat more sugar, and more overall, after a long period of low sugar. There may well have been other factors too.
    For people with unhelpful gut microbiota and sluggish peristalsis, starches and some fibres can overfeed the the bacteria, and contribute to high bacterial endotoxin loads, which burden the liver and other systems. Simpler sugars are usually more quickly digested, leaving less to feed the bacteria.
    I've had many cavities in my teeth - just as many during 15 years of low-sugar as before and after. Strong thyroid and good mineral supply can help improve the quality of saliva, which apparently is one of the keys to dental health. Can't say I've got this solved for myself, but avoiding sugar didn't improve it.

    Protein: For people in hypothyroid states, Peat usually recommends 80-100g protein; healthy adults generally do better with more - eg 130-150g. Insufficient protein is one way to slow the liver down. Unless you personally have insurmountable difficulties with dairy, he usually recommends dairy as a good source of protein. Gelatin can help balance the excessive tryptophan in muscle meats. Quite a lot of posters here eat significant gelatine, as homemade jellies, or mixed into drinks and soups etc.
    Keffir and other fermented milk can have a lot of lactic acid. For people with run down systems, the lactic acid can be a significant burden - IIRC, on the mitochondria and on the liver. If fresh milk works for you, it avoids this problem with kefir, yogurt, etc. Greek/strained yogurt/qwark etc have a lot of the lactic acid drained off with the whey, and some people here eat them for tasty protein.

    You can check your micronutrient intake with cronometer. For most people, Peat recommends iron would be better a bit lower than RDI, obviously PUFAs as low as possible - Peat says under 4g is protective, and calcium:phosphorus 1:1 - 2:1, with calcium at least 1200mg.
    Calcium: milk, eggshell, oystershell (in order of preference)
    Magnesium: OJ, coffee, greens (cooked or pureed will yield more than salads),
    epsom salt baths, supplements
    Potassium: OJ, other fruits and veges
    Sodium: salt, baking soda - some people say adding more salt makes a big difference to them. I notice I get problems if I accidentally reduce salt too much.
    Zinc: oysters
    Copper and many other minerals: liver (one serving a week, or smaller portions more often)
    Too much iron can be a burden. Many peopel here drink coffee or coca cola and avoid vitamin C at meals with meat to reduce iron absorption.
    Liver also provides one of the richest sources of vit-A, and a relevant amount of vit K2, plus some B vitamins.

    The gut produces extra serotonin, in response to intestinal aggravation including friction, stretching, and some toxins. Serotonin stimulates peristalsis to move things along and out. Too much serotonin can contribute to problems. Large amounts of green salads can be rough on the intestines for some people. Most greens will yield more of their mineral nutrients with less anti-nutrients if they are cooked than they will raw.

    Do you get plenty of sunlight? It helps restore the cytochrome oxidase enzyme, crucial for energy production.

    You can get more of an idea of what's going on with thyroid if you measure temps several times a day for a couple of days - including as soon as you wake up, an hour after breakfast, ... From the TSH you posted, and your symptoms, it seems likely that thyroid function is a bit on the low side.

    Not from Peat, but one of the ways some people get into fatigued/depleted states is from simply undereating for too long. This can cause all sorts of problems, including driving down metabolism (thyroid function), slowing and weakening digestion, causing the body to abandon production of testosterone till better nourished days, etc. Most public calorie guidelines are too low, based on studies of what people say they eat, not what they actually eat. With some individul variability, apparently, the average non-dieting, weight-stable man eats about 3000 cals/day. I don't know if this applies to you, but people who eat a lot less that this over a prolonged period can suffer some of the symptoms you describe, including low testosterone.

    Once you've had a look at whether your diet is meeting your needs, I wonder whether other tactics might be worth considering - eg thyroid, pregnenlolone, progesterone. If you decide at some stage to supplement thyroid, I recommend, based on my reading, not from my own experience, a slow cautious approach to dosing.

    Hope you can find an approach that helps.
  15. tara

    tara Moderator

    Anti-biotics: Peat has been quite positive about some kinds of anti-biotics, but not others. I haven't used any since starting to read Peat, but I think minocycline is one he favours, and there are others. It can give the system a break from endotoxin load for a while. There are a couple of threads discussing antibiotics and the pros and cons of probiotics when gut flora is out of balance.
    If nothing else is working, anti-biotics might be a reasonable thing to try, esp if you can get the safer kinds.

    Not from Peat, but other remedies I've heard of for h. pylori are manuka honey and matula tea. Don't know if raw garlic is effective.

    Btw, I don't diapprove of any one's diet (well, I guess I'd draw the line at some things :) ) - it's just a matter of whether it is working well enough for you. I don't think it has to be the same for everyone, though I do think low PUFA, adequate protein and micronutrients, and generous carbs are probably useful for everyone.
  16. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Tara, thank you for your support.

    My cholesterol is constantly 200. My cortisol. .. I don't remember exact numbers but it's slightly over normal range. I was taking over the counter adrenal and thyroid (T-150) supplements both containing desiccated animal adrenal and thyroid glands extracts correspondently. I noticed no improvement at all.

    I've tried to take gelatin in a glass of water with each meat containing food. Tried to stop taking olive oil as dressing for salad - no improvement in both cases. I guess it's a matter of changing the dietary "religion". For example, all sources I've heard say to take uncooked oils only and to avoid sugar.... As I understand it, olive oil is PUFA... It's hard to believe in something that contradicts majority, even though I admit that majority can be wrong.

    I'm not sure but I think when I'm sick with flue and having fever once or twice a year, my fatigue is less prevalent. Maybe that's the clue pointing to the fact that my normal temperature is low. I also noticed that when I take Ibuprofen - my fatigue is also less burdening... not sure what that means.

    I do take homemade kefir made from raw goat milk. Are you saying that's fermented and should be avoided as per Peat?

    Undereating for long does not seem to be my problem.

    I haven't tried to calculate how much protein and calories I take. But I usually take meat on lunch and dinner. No milk right now. I take about 3 teaspoons (is it 15 grams?) of raw honey as dessert for dinner. Is that too low of sugar per day? I eat potatoes only sometimes. Why is my glucose on high side?

    These are my thoughts so far. Thanks!
  17. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,
    Olive oil varies, but the bottle in my cupboard says around 10% PUFA. This is much better than many other liquid seed oils. A little every day is probably fine (Peat has suggested ~1tsp), but regular large quantities contribute to PUFA burden. Coconut oil is more like 1-2% PUFA. Uncooked undsaturated oils may be less oxidised before they enter your body, but once they enter your body they are exposed to heat and oxygen and all the destructive things can happen there anyway. If you haven't read Peat's articles on fats, I'd recommend them.
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/fa ... ions.shtml
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/un ... fats.shtml

    Plain gelatin in water doesn't sound all that appetising, but good that you are getting some - I like mine mixed with juice or coffee. Coffee is probably better with meat because it hinders rather than encourages iron absorption.
    Peat stopped drinking keffir when he noticed it triggered migraines for him. He says the lactic acid in keffir is a burden on the whole system, including the liver. If you can strain it to remove most of the whey, that would reduce the lactic acid content.

    I don't have the time or patience to regularly track calories and other nutrients, either. But if you haven't done it at all lately, it might well be worth doing for just a few days (cronometer.com), to quantify what you are getting. You might be surprised.
    I used to think that since my weight was always in the 'ideal/normal/healthy' range, I was probably eating enough. I've since learned that teh body will adapt and sometimes sacrifice a lot to maintain it's weight, even in the face of an ongoing energy deficit. This may not be you, but it would be interesting to see.

    A lot of people here eat a few hundred grams of sugar, from various sources. I aim for at least 300g/day (but I don't track carefully). I now eat a lot more sugar than starch. I can't say I've solved my key health issues, but I think my energy levels are a bit more stable now after a prolonged period with more sugar and less starch. I don't think I could have switched overnight though. When sweet things taste good to you, that may indicate that you could use more sugar. 15 grams of honey is very low sugar intake.
    How much sugar is optimal may well vary from person to person, but it seems likely it will be in range of 1:1 - 1:6 or protein:sugar. I'm aiming for 1:3 - 1:4, but I don't know if I've got it right for myself yet. I haven't had my blood sugars measured for a while though, so I don't know what's happening at that level.

    If you eat less when you have flu, you could feel temporarily better from not feeding your endotoxin producing gut bacteria so much or a few days.

    If you know what the ingredients in your thyroid supplement are that might meaningful - I'm not familiar with them. Some don't have active T3 or T4, and those that do would be expected to have a ratio of approx 1:4 T3:T4. Overdosing seems to set up some resistance in the body. How much were you taking? Did you notice any effects?
    Peat has said that many people do better with a higher ratio of T3:T4, varies from person, but usually in the range 1:2 - 1:4. Too much T4, if the liver isn't up to the job of converting it to the active T3, can sometimes cause more problems. I haven't tried supplementing T3 or T4 other than my daily small amount of chicken neck soup. If you do try it at some stage in the future, I'd recommend starting low and slow. I've posted about this in a few other threads. I don't think this is the first thing I would try if I were you, but maybe down the track.

    My hunch is that the h. pylori infection may be an important issue to address fairly soon, either by trying natural remedies or prescription anti-biotics.

    Take care
  18. tara

    tara Moderator

    Ibuprofen: I use it from time to time to try to stop a threatening migraine (my key issue), and I sometimes notice improved energy. I guess general anti-inflamatory effects help with general energy production, but I don't know the mechanisms.
    After reading Peat (http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/aspir ... ncer.shtml), I'd prefer to use aspirin (with vit-K supplement) and sometimes do, but the ibuprofen seems to give me a better chance against the migraines, and if I've already taken aspirin I think I need to hold back on the ibuprofen. I'd be interested in Peat's take on this. Many people here take aspirin regularly.
    Have you tried aspirin instead of ibuprofen? Notice any effects?
  19. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Hi Tara,
    Sorry for late response. It's too much info to process.

    How do people who follow Peat's diet do in the blood sugar and diabetes matters? Do they normally have evelated blood sugar? Do they monitor sugar levels? According to that article if I start eating white sugar now - my blood sugar should normalize, it should go down (it's now borderline high - 101). Will that happen? My mother gave me one of those sugar measuring devices which I never used so I may try that test. Have other Peateterians here reported decrease in blood sugar after starting eating 300 g or more of sugar?

    No I don't eat less when I have flu. I think it's the raise in body temperature that makes me feel slightly better. I don't know why 4 years ago I stopped drinking hot tea after lunch, replacing it with slightly warm water. Now that I resumed hot tea, I'm not sure yet but it seems like it helps a little.

    This is the thyroid supplement I was taking:

    https://www.xymogen.com/products/produc ... px?pid=220

    I didn't feel any difference on it.

    I've heard many horror stories from people who developed internal bleeding due to aspirin so it scares me. I've never tried aspirin. Maybe I should. But again, I'm afraid to overdo it.

    There's so much contradicting information... makes me question and doubt everything I hear. The increased sugar intake issue is the biggest contradicting piece of information I'm getting. I don't want to make another mistake. One more will probably kill me... So if you can, please reply regarding blood sugar and insulin responses to increased sugar intake by real-life examples.
  20. jyb

    jyb Member

    Ray's stance seems to be that elevated blood sugar is a symptom of a metabolic problem, due to poisoning by pufa maybe, and that could be helped with eating more carbs for example. That is because in general Ray recommends to run on glucose (eat carbs) rather than on fatty acids (eat fats), with the nuance that a lot of the harm of using fatty acids is due to when they are pufa.

    I'm not sure how problematic Ray views the pre-diabetes blood sugar range. Some people non-related to Ray will say hyperglycaemia / pre-diabetes is extremely dangerous (just like hypoglycaemia) as the higher sugar content would cause damage to organs over time. There are many implementations of Ray's work, if one of them causes you to have excessive blood glucose and you believe its driving you to diabetes, then you don't have to do that particular one. However whatever you do should improve indicators like your thyroid status, stress and mood, sleep quality, hunger etc.
  21. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,
    I don't have the gear for regular blood glucose testing. My last fasting blood glucose lab test about a year ago was OK. I'd been eating more sugar for while then, I think. You could read TheBigPeatowski's thread, for a low fat high sugar story. I don't know what is typical, but it seems there is quite a range of different responses. Probably depends a bit on which systems have been run down/overwhelmed, eg liver. The better your liver glycogen storage capacity is, the more glucose you can store for later, and the easier it is to maintain stable blood sugar between meals. I think it is reasonable to make changes gradually and monitor effects. I have read stories of people who majorly improved their glucose handling by throwing lots of carbs (and less fat) at it, but I don't know what proportion this applies to. Peat has made the point that the pancreas requires glucose to generate new pancreatic beta cells. As jyb says, PUFAs tend to poison them

    I understand Peat to say that many of the problems associated with hyperglycemia/diabetes are caused by the lack of energy resuting from difficulties in oxidising glucose, rather than from the high blood glucose itself, though that may also be problematic if it is prolonged. Also, insulin supplementation causes a number of problems of it's own, which are often attributed to diabetes.

    If the cells are having trouble burning straight glucose, they are often able to produce more energy from a mix of fructose and glucose as in sucrose, honey, and many fruits. Sucrose (half glucose half fructose) should raise insulin less than a comparable amount of starches, eg white rice (all glucose), and so produce less of the 'bouncy' blood glucose some of us have experienced with more starch (eg reactive hypoglycemia?). Talk of high blood sugar in diabetes contexts usually means glucose, not fructose. I heard there have been times when fructose has been used to treat diabetes.

    I think anyone adding large amounts of refined sucrose probably needs to really pay attention to getting plenty of all the other cofactors for sugar metabolism from other food - potassium, magnesium, B-vitamins, etc. Fruit brings minerals along with the glucose and fructose. Liver is a great source of several micronutrients, including one of the best sources of vit-A and copper. Oysters are one of the richesst sources of zinc. Cronometer can help make sure you cover your bases (as long as you don't believe its calorie recommendations).

    When there is a lot of fat available in the bloodstream, either from a recent fatty meal or from fat stores liberated during stress (including low blood sugar stress), sugar oxidation is suppressed in favour of fat burning (Randle 'Cycle'). As jyb says, Peat recommends largely running on glucose (and fuctose), rather than fat.
    Under low oxygen supply, cells will use glycolysis instead of oxidation to produce energy. Glycolysis is nowhere near as efficient as oxidation. One common effect of low metabolism and/or low carb intake is reduced CO2 production. Low CO2 levels (from low metabolism and/or hyperventilation) impair the oxygen supply to tissues (Bohr effect). A sustainably strong metabolism seems to require a lot of carbs.

    There is some discussion of the points you raise in other recent threads.

    Evaluating new information for yourself rather than accepting on faith makes sense to me. So far Peat's basic concepts are looking pretty ocohesive and credible to me. But who knows what we'll learn next? Testing things out and seeing how they work for you is a more reliable way forward than blindly following anyone.
  22. tara

    tara Moderator

    If I've understood it right, vitamin K is protective against the excess bleeding effects of regular aspirin. Many people here supplement vit K with aspirin for this and other reasons.

    I know what you mean by all the contradictory information. I've briefly followed a couple of paths that I've since turned around on. Not least the 'sugar is poison' path. I'm finding both the many contradictions out there, and the challenges Peat brings to many things I thought I knew, to be stimulating and liberating.
  23. jyb

    jyb Member

    Using fat or glucose oxidatively both result in plenty of CO2. Just because you are using saturated fatty acids does not mean you are low in CO2/metabolism/thyroid etc. It doesn't imply either that you are low in blood glucose, if the body wastes it less. If you eat a huge potato, you might get that classic blood glucose swing and get hungry 1 hour after. I personally would not feel safe doing that if I were in pre-diabetes range. Even with normal blood glucose I don't do it. But that's just me. Ray prefers glucose because he thinks eating more fat could risk accumulating pufa over time and the fatty acids correlate with disease (they rise when there are problems), while other writers tend to focus more on keeping a stable glucose level.
  24. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi jyb,
    My understanding is that Ray favours fructose + glucose over just glucose for improving blood sugar (and energy) stability. So he would probably recommend sweet fruit over potatoes. He also generally recommends eating some protein and saturated fat with carbs, not a no-fat diet. The sat. fat helps keep blood sugar stable after that meal, as well as helping to protect against whatever PUFAs are around in the system. I agree with you that a large potato with little or no fat can cause a problematic blood sugar and energy fluctuation. And so can a lot of sugar, especially when the system is not handling it optimally.

    I agree that Peat has been favouring lower fat in order to lower PUFA intake.

    What is your understanding of the Randle cycle? My understanding is that high free fatty acids, either from fatty food or from fasting, inhibits sugar oxidation. My quick glance at Wikipedia (I know it's not a reliable source, but I didn't think this was scientifically controversial), seemed to confirm this. Peat has referred to the Randle 'cycle' (and says it's not really a cycle).

    If diabetes often involves poor glucose oxidation and a high rate of fat oxidation, I was thinking that reducing this inhibition on sugar oxidation by lowering fat consumption if it is high (not completely eliminating it) while ensuring sufficiently frequent sugar intake to avoid unnecessarily having low blood sugar trigger lipolysis and/or gluconeogenesis, would potentially improve the processes of sugar oxidation. How well this would work, I expect would vary depending on the state of various systems in the body, including damage/depletion/overloading to liver and pancreas. Individuals still have to figure out what works for them.
    But I'm not confident about this last part, so I'd be interested in where it might not be right/not the relevantly full story.
  25. jyb

    jyb Member

    Doesn't seem unusual in itself. Depending on how you eat, you body will metabolise things in some order. If you eat lots of sugar, you'll need insulin (if you can still produce some) to use glucose, which will keep fatty acids waiting and get the cells to use that glucose. Or vice versa the fatty acids first. Of course its a problem if you have glucose or pufa or whatever floating around excessively high when you didn't intend that to happen, stopping you from using this or that. That's when something is broken or is causing damage.
  26. tara

    tara Moderator

    Part of what Peat has talked about wrt diabetes is that it is often diagnosed just on the basis of detecting hyperglycemia, and assuming from that that the pancreas is struggling to produce insulin. Sometimes hyperglycemia can occur even when the body is quite capable of producing enough insulin, but other factors are affecting glucose oxidation (eg Randle cycle, micro-nutrient deficiencies) or gluconeogenesis (eg. chronically high cortisol from a range of causes). Low carb dieters sometimes get highish fasting blood sugars, which sometimes lower again after introducing moderate carbs. If the body really can't be persuaded by reasonable means to produce enough insulin, then more fat might sometimes make sense. But in other cases, doing what you can to support sugar oxidation seems like it would make more sense, and trying this first gives you more options later. Might include lowering fats if high for Randle Cycle reasons, ensuring plentiful B vits and other nutrients, etc, frequent small feeding. Going the high-fat route from the beginning is likely to reduce someone's ability to metabolise glucose, and therefore it looks to me to be more suitable as a last resort.

    The pancreatic beta cells can be poisoned by PUFA. They can also regenerate (streaming from other pancreatic cells - I forget which ones) under the right conditions. Glucose is one of the requirements for this. I think magnesium might be too, but less sure of this. I don't know what all the other requirements are. Avoiding liberating stored PUFAs unnecessarily, as well as keeping current PUFA intake really low would probably be useful?

    Peat has said that a craving for sugar usually indicates a need for sugar.
    My current approach is to trust and be guided by this, ie eat/drink as much sugar as I want (mostly fruit, some sucrose, honey, milk). Sometimes I overdo it, or sometimes when I'm sick, sweet things start to taste bad, so I back off. I assume this means my body had more sugar in the system than it could handle for the moment.

    Personally, I don't eat particularly low or high fat. Some fat does seem to help sustain me for longer. Can't tell you the numbers, though, because I don't track much.
  27. jyb

    jyb Member

    If you rely on sugar and avoid fat for energy, then you'll crave it whenever you run out of sugar (except at night, when the sensors seem to turn off). It's the same if you eat more fat, except you will take longer to crave it (until your hunger re-appears). In my opinion frequent acute cravings (sudden stressful response) is a sign of energy depletion and bad metabolism. In my experience the brain seems to be a particularly good indicator to know whether the metabolism is good, as it affects both mood and sleep quality. I can go from total insomniac to relaxed sleeper or vice versa within a few weeks by just changing these parameters, so I know exactly what my body needs as energy source.
  28. tara

    tara Moderator

    I agree that frequent acute stressful cravings indicate energy depletion, either from suboptimal metabolism or simply from deficient fuel supply. My experience over the last year or so is that I can now eat much more sugar without it tasting like too much, and that I have far fewer of those sudden stressful (shaky, urgent, followed by crash) energy dips than I used to.
    This is from a history of high starch, low sugar. I'm now more focused on micronutrients, too. But I've never cut my fat down very low, and I don't know how I would respond to that.

    I'm sure you know I'm not suggesting you should change what you've got working so well for yourself. And I think it is likely I will make some changes for myself as time goes on, though right now I'll not predict them. I think it's probably useful to see a range - we don't all choose the same paths, and we don't all respond the same to similar choices.
  29. bluewren

    bluewren Member

    Aragorn wrote:
    How do people who follow Peat's diet do in the blood sugar and diabetes matters? Do they normally have evelated blood sugar? Do they monitor sugar levels? According to that article if I start eating white sugar now - my blood sugar should normalize, it should go down (it's now borderline high - 101). Will that happen? My mother gave me one of those sugar measuring devices which I never used so I may try that test. Have other Peateterians here reported decrease in blood sugar after starting eating 300 g or more of sugar?
  30. bluewren

    bluewren Member

    Yes, I can report a decrease in Fasting Blood Glucose since eating sugar....my blood results went from 5.4mmol/l to 4.8 mmol/l. This happened over 3 months. I am amazed, and delighted!
  31. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member


    How are those units (mmol/l) correlate with the numbers we see on glucometers and whatever doctors are using (95, 100, 120 etc.)?


    Did my link to thyroid supplement I was taking help you understand the ingredients and give you a clue as to why I was not getting any improvements on it? Here it is again: https://www.xymogen.com/products/produc ... px?pid=220

    Those clucose measuring straps I have are expired so I'll have to order a new kit. I want to measure my base fasting glucose early morning. Then to increase white sugar intake during the day. If blood glucose goes down then I'll be surprised and will see the light at the end of tunnel. This would mean that not only my sugar normalize but also that would give me a hope that all my other (major) problems are caused by low carb.

    However If blood glucose goes up - what would that mean? Would it mean that high carb diet is not for me? How much time should I give it to work?

    My main concern right now is not my sugar but extreme fatigue. The reason I'm looking at Ray Peat diet is because of the original poster of this thread who said his thyroid was improved after high carb diet which led to cure of his low testosterone. This is what I'm clinically having right now: low T. I'm reading the book by Broda Barnes about hyperthyroidism that the OP mentioned. All of the symptoms of hypothyroidism he describes in the book match not only my symptoms but my mother's and sister's. But if the root of my problems is thyroid then I don't understand why that supplement wasn't helping me?

    BTW, I don't have any cravings. Except for cravings for rest.... I don't get hungry for 6-7 hours.
  32. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,
    I just looked at the link. I see nothing saying that it does not contain natural amounts of T3 and T4, so unless it says something like that on the back of the bottle, I gues they are still in there.
    Apparently there can be problems caused by too much iodine as well as too little. Peat usually does not recommend supplementing, as he thinks most people get enough, but I guess it depends on your food supply.

    Thyroid hormones help turn fuel into energy. If you are not well nourished, they CAN'T do that. When faced with thyroid supps and inadequate nourishment, the body will defend itself as best it can. I think it sometimes does this by raising rT3 to limit metabolism, and there are probably other mechanisms too.

    I do not think I am qualified to guide on how to deal with blood sugars, but if they rise inthe short term with more sucrose, I'd be double checking all the other nutrients are ample. Personally I supplement some, including B vitamins and magnesium, that I think make a difference to sugar handling. And then I'd give it a few weeks and see what happens.
  33. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Thanks. So if there are T3 and T4 contained in that supplement, what does this mean? How is that good or bad? I didn't understand that part. I've heard that opposite to mainstream doctors who prescribe T3 and T4, alternative doctors and "old-school" endocrinologists prescribe whole dedicated animal thyroid that is supposedly better. This supplement was given to me by an alternative doctor basing on description of my symptoms.

    I don't take iodine. Tried for few days, got no results and stopped. Maybe I should take it for longer periods of time.
  34. bluewren

    bluewren Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomnia
    Postby Aragorn » Fri Mar 13, 2015 10:13 am


    How are those units (mmol/l) correlate with the numbers we see on glucometers and whatever doctors are using (95, 100, 120 etc.)?

    Hi Aragorn,
    Here is a link to convert mmols/L to mg/dL

  35. tara

    tara Moderator

    The link for your thyroid supplement lists iodine amongst several other ingredients that I don't know much about. And I don't know enough about iodine to have any idea if the quantity is enough to potentially be an issue. I am not familiar with this or other brands/formulations. Hopefully someone else knows more.

    T3 is the more active thyroid hormone and has a half life measured in ours. T4 has a longer half life, and gets gradually converted to T3, mostly by the liver. I think the ratio the thyroid puts out is approx 1:4 of T3:T4. For some people, the liver has trouble making this conversion at an appropriate rate, and for them a T4 only supplement can cause problems. Using both T4 and T3, either natural (NDT) or synthetic, ends to work better for many people. If you have separate T3 as well as either separate T4 or 1:4 T3:T4 preparations, you can adjust the ratio. If it's NDT you just get the normal ratio. The ideal ratio varies from person, somewhere in the range 1:2 - 1:4, according to Peat.

    People have written about thyroid glandular supplements that say they have the active T3 and T4 removed. If the one you have has these active hormones in it, then they should have the effect in your body that your own endogenous T3 and T4 do.
  36. tara

    tara Moderator

    It takes 2-4 weeks for a new or increased dose of T4 (natural like yours or synthetic) to reach a stable level in the blood. The T3 component should be felt much more quickly (I would think minutes or hours, possibly depending on the formulation). The cautious approach to finding a suitable dose is to start with a little, eg 1/4 tablet, track temps and pulse, and increase dose every 3-4 weeks until you get to normal body temp, if you are getting movement in the right diection. Its slow, but it should avoid oversdosing. It seems to me from reading here that people find it hard to find a good level if they have overshot by too much.
  37. aquaman

    aquaman Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    Amazing how 2.5 years after this post, mose posters ( I THINK) don't follow this advice, and instead look to things like Methylene Blue as the answer to their problems!
  38. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Ok. So I started taking basal temperature in the morning and it's very low: 96.6 - 97.0, indicating severe hypothyroidism. My fasting blood sugar was 94. I added 2 teaspoons of white sugar to tea at lunch (in addition to some honey and oatmeal crackers. 3 hrs after lunch glucose was 84. Before dinner I drunk 12 oz of raw milk with 2 teaspoons of sugar as well as 2 teaspoons with tea. 2 hrs after dinner blood glucose was 107.

    Next morning fasting glucose was 99. Is additional white sugar raising my blood glucose?

    Besides, how do you calculate amount of carbs you take a day from different sources such as milk, white sugar, potatoes, oatmeal crackers, brown rice crackers, honey?
  39. narouz

    narouz Member

    Re: Overcoming a 4 year battle with hypogonadism and insomni

    I agree in general with what you say, aqua.
    Just knowing and applying "the basics" of Peat's dietary ideas often gets lost
    in the leaping after supplements and pharmas.
    The forum kinda went into a strange self-censorship
    linked to a kind of cult of personality thing
    and a mysticism thing,
    under the influence of which
    exploring and clarifying just what those Peat basics are
    became very difficult.
    "There is no Peat diet," etc.

    For example,
    I lately have been re-listening to the Herb Doctor interview
    about Calcium and Phosphate.
    Now there is a very basic and crucial facet of Peat's nutritional thinking,
    and yet it gets pushed to the background
    with all our fascination with MB or high amino dosing or odansetron or tianeptine or whatever.
    Not to put down the validity of those Peat-inspired substances--
    I am thankful to those experimenting and I like to experiment myself.

    But...just the fundamentals of Peat's dietary ideas are complex
    and often difficult to get a firm grasp on
    and to apply consistently.

    Another very very basic Peat dietary tenet that often gets brushed past:
    Peat has said that in the past and over his years of advising people,
    one of his most common suggestions is simply
    to stop taking all supplements.
    He found that just doing that alone corrected a lot of problems.
  40. tara

    tara Moderator

    Depends on lots of things, including what else you ate, and maybe other things going on. It often takes the system a while to adapt to changes in diet, so one or two days doesn't necessarily tell you much.

  41. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Tara, you've mentioned that many people aim at like 300 g of sugar. Did you mean 300 g of carbs total, including glucose, fructose, starch and carbs from breads etc. or 300 g of sugar/glucose only?
  42. tara

    tara Moderator

    Depends on whether they are eating starch or not - some here do, so for them carbs include starch and sugars, while others avoid starch in favour of sugars, and eat that much sugar, including glucose, fructose, lactose, sucrose.
    Personally, I've been eating some starch, but mostly sugars - more than 200g/day, mostly from fruit juice. If I was handling milk better, I'd have more of that.
  43. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    I see. Thank you. Forgive my ignorance but is bread/crackers/cookies considered glucose for the purpose of counting daily sugar intake?
  44. tara

    tara Moderator

    Bread and crackers are usually mostly starch, which breaks down to glucose. Cookies are often a mixture of starch and sucrose; sucrose breaks down to half glucose half sucrose.
    Some people avoid starch becasue it is a complex carbohydrate that tends to travel further down the GI tract before breaking down, and tends to feed intestinal bacteria.

    The other difference Peat points to is that glucose requires and stimulates more insulin than does a mixture of fructose and glucose, and in some contexts the latter can more easily be turned into energy in the cells. So some people choose foods with a good proportion of fructose, which you don't get from starch.

    So whether you count starch as glucose or not depends on whether you are considering the monosaccharides that it breaks down to - and their effect on blood sugars and energy production, or the whole complex molecules - and their effect on bacteria and endotoxin in the GI tract.

    If you haven't read Peat's articles on sugar, I'd recommend them.
  45. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Well, I've been already eating lots of sucrose from fruits and honey and some starch from potatoes and rye/rice crackers. The only sugar I was missing is glucose from white/raw sugar. I started eating more of that and my blood glucose risen. Why is my thyroid not working then, if it requires carbs which I'm taking? ( I'm trying to correct thyroid by food before I start supplementing with thyroid).

    As far as PUFA, I'm taking 1 tsp of olive oil as dressing and 1 tbsp of coconut oil. Also 1 tsp of flax oil. So I don't think PUFA is my problem...
  46. tara

    tara Moderator

    You would be getting some glucose from fruits and honey too, even without the sucrose.

    There are many factors involved in restoring health, and few certainties. There are many nutrients to optimise, not just carbs - sufficient good protein, and all the vitamins and minerals. Also sunlight, sleep and breathing can have effects. And even once you get things moving in roughly the right direction, it can still take time, and have bumps along the way. If the pancreas etc are out of practice at handling carbs because you've been restricting them heavily for a long time, it might take a bit for it to get up to speed again. I think Peat has suggested there is some scope for the pancreatic beta cells to recover if they can be provided with good conditions, but this is largely at odds with the standard medical story.

    We all end up having to figure out what works for ourselves, with the information we can gather and paying attention to how our body responds.

    How have you been getting on reading Peat's articles and listening to/reading his interviews? They can be challenging, and I've found I get more out of them by rereading, but they have been important for me to get an idea on how Peat sees health overall. Great that you've been reading Broda Barnes - I hope to read him some time too.

    If you can be bothered with the effort, you could plug in a typical day's diet into cronometer.com, and post a screenshot of it here. That makes it easier for people here to see if there are obvious gaps or imbalances in nutrition, etc. Even if you don't want to post it, it can be a valuable tool for you to assess what else you might be needing.
  47. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Hi Tara and all,

    Here's my sample food list from cromoneter.com . It's an average list of course since my day-to-day food intake varies. I'm sure this is not a perfect Peat's recommended diet but it will give you an idea of what I eat now. Some soup I often eat is not in the list so I broke it down to ingredients. I added 8-10 tsp of raw sugar and some milk per day staring 2 weeks ago. It's too early to tell and I keep my fingers crossed, but it seems like my both fasting morning and 2 hrs after meal blood glucose has declined and it seems to be an average of around 90 now. But I can't tell if my fatigue got any better yet. Please take a look at my food screenshot.

    Regarding reading Peat's articles. I can't make sense of them while reading. Everyone got their own ideas and everyone seems to be absolutely right. But only real results can tell. Most of what he writes does not make sense to me but I'm open to believing whatever actually WORKS in real life.

    Another important question I have is this. My wife has stage III breast cancer. Underwent all traditional treatments. She is blood type A (vegetarian) and does better with minimal meat - she feels healthier that way, unlike me. So, every holistic doctor she saw told her to avoid sugar and too sugary fruits such as grapes, since sugar feeds cancer - so they said. She's generally followed that advice and is avoiding bread/sugar for last 5 years, however she takes plenty of fruits. But recently she started measuring her blood glucose since I've got the glucometer, and her's is noticeably higher: morning fasting is averaging 100 and 2 hrs after meal averaging 115.

    What is Peat's approach to sugar in relation to cancer? Sugar does not contribute to cancer growth? Should she try to increase sugar intake?

    Attached Files:

  48. flyboy9994

    flyboy9994 Member

    Hello Aragorn. New guy here but I would like to chime in a little.

    Are you dead set against testosterone replacement therapy? I only ask because I also suffered horribly from hypogonadism and started TRT and it's made a huge difference.
  49. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    I'm trying to avoid it at all costs. But if I fail, I'll have no choice. I just feel it's a wrong thing to do but I can't explain why. I just discovered that my thyroid is not working and that must have started long before testosterone problem. I will try to follow http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com/ in taking thyroid and get tested for adrenal problems. If that fails then I'll start taking Testosterone. I suspect thyroid might be closer to the root of my problems. Testosterone replacement just scares me... people are saying it causes prostate cancer left and right and there are class action lawsuits....

    Have you tested temperature to rule out thyroid?
  50. flyboy9994

    flyboy9994 Member

    It's funny you ask that because I'm fairly convinced I also suffer from hypothyroid. I've spent a lot of time on the STTM website as I was convinced that my thyroid was the root of my debilitating fatigue. I went to my doc for tests and my TSH was 1.0. Not great but in his eyes not enough to treat. (I'll get back to that). Anyway, during those tests is when we discovered my horrendously low T (190) and he immediately recommended TRT. My main concern was also prostate cancer but further research has determined this to be largely untrue IF your PSA number isn't elevated. Mine was super low at 0.5 so my doc was very confident in recommending TRT. I started with the type applied under the armpits each morning and within a few days started to feel much better. Within a few weeks I honestly feel like I was reborn! Another test showed my T at 750!! Yay! I have been on TRT for about 4 months now and am feeling much more motivated and actually WANT to exercise for the first time in over 10 years. (I'm 52 and morbidly obese by the way). My low T was also causing major problems with my general demeanor and motivation to do anything. Sitting at home all day with the blinds closed was the norm. Now I finally feel like taking control of my health and that's how I ended up here.

    OK, enough rambling. Now that I feel much better, there is still the issue of hypothyroidism which I still believe is a factor here. It turns out hypogonadism and hypothyroidism are very often present together. Even though my TSH was 1.0 I didn't pursue any further testing until I got my T squared away. My morning temps are horrible. I actually saw 95.5 one morning but they average 96 to97 which I'm aware is too low. I am scheduled for another blood draw next week and am having the full STTM recommended thyroid panel done so I can began to pursue that. Basically what I expect to happen in the next couple of years is to get my thyroid issues worked out, use Peats principles to lose a large amount of weight, exercise and in the process fix my damaged metabolism (thanks paleo)... As a result, my need for TRT should start to wane. I have read similar success stories and TRT is definitely NOT a life sentence as most would lead you to believe. I'm simply using it as a tool to get where I need to be. If your interested here is a link to a thread on another forum I found about several men going through TRT. They talk mostly about injectable T but I got a lot of good useful info there. Hope this helps.

    http://forums.menshealth.com/topic/low- ... ere?page=1
  51. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,
    Glad your fasting sugars didn't skyrocket and scare you. :)
    My guess is that Peat would most strongly recommend stopping the flaxseed oil - I think this must be what's pushing you PUFA totals way high. And to maybe watch the rye crispbread to see if it bothers your gut (if it doesn't bother you, it may not be a big deal). I used to eat quite a few of those too. If this is typical, then you may still be undereating (my thought, not necessarily Peat's).

    Peat's interviews are easier going than his articles - you can listen or some of them have been very helpfully transcribed, mostly by forum members.

    I'm sorry you wife is having to fight breast cancer. I am not very familiar with this. I know Peat's articles can be hard going, but I'd recommend reading all his ones on cancer too. I have not read them in the last little while,, but IIRC, he says that cancer does use sugar, but it tends to convert human to sugar even if you don't eat it, and the person also needs sugar to fight it, and to counteract the cachexia which can itself be a lethal aspect of cancer. I think progesterone, aspirin, very low PUFA, raising CO2 levels if low and good mineral balance (which may be one of the major advantages of high juicing diets like Gershon) also feature. Can't remember if he talks much about the amino acid balance - ie restricting cysteine, methionine and tryptophan in favour of more glycine etc, specifically against cancer. Coconut oil may be helpful. There is a link in one of his transcribed interviews to a TED talk by a scientist talking about experiments demonstrating the importance of the field (as opposed to just the genes) affecting cell behaviour wrt cancer.

    Look up previous poster Peatarian's posts.
  52. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member


    Thanks for info. My wife is not having signs of cachexia right now. She very slightly gained weight. She tried progesterone before orthodox treatments (along with 2 dozen other alternative treatments) but got no results. Maybe it was too late... tumor was big. Regarding sugar: this is the biggest question right now. I've tried googling Peat's view on cancer and sugar, and there's couple of articles where he says what you've said about cancer feeding off sugar as well as healthy cells needing sugar. But I couldn't find and real life experiences from real people like cancer survivors that started taking more sugar and cancer got to remission or something like that. Please direct me where I could read these. I can't trust any more scientists without them backing their studies by real examples, can't afford doing that anymore. Right now the questions are:

    1. What causes my wife's blood glucose being elevated and
    2. If that's due to lack of sugar, can increased sugar intake pose risk to her as cancer survivor?

    She also takes flaxseed oil as a part of Budwig regimen (flaxseed oil and cotton cheese) and she says it helps her getting more energy and gives her healthy face color. There's a lot of noise around Budwig being a cure for cancer so she won't let go off Budwig easily and I'm not sure she should... Do you think flaxseed oil might have been the reason of her elevated sugar?

    As far as myself: I started taking flaxseed oil only like 4 months ago so it can't be a cause of my low thyroid or testosterone. As far as crispbread - no, it doesn't bother my gut (but wheat did when I was eating it). Anyway, right now I'm not digesting unless I take enzymes etc, whether I eat bread or not... The only explanation I see to that is low thyroid.

    Regarding reading or listening to Ray Peat. I don't think I can learn something from pure theories or pure science. Plus, I don't understand most of the terminology. What is important for me is REAL LIFE EXAMPLES of his approach. That's why I'm here, asking real people. There are so many scientists and all are saying oppisite things and back them up tremendously by super-convincing scientific evidence and formulas, but only those that actually work are worth anything. So the only question to any approach I have is this: Does It Work In Real Life?

    >>>>>There is a link in one of his transcribed interviews to a TED talk by a scientist talking about experiments demonstrating the importance of the field (as opposed to just the genes) affecting cell behaviour wrt cancer.

    Please, explain what filed you're talking about.

    >>>>>Look up previous poster Peatarian's posts.

    Which ones, exactly?


    Thanks for info, however I've read a lot about TRT before I came to this forum and I failed to find a single TRT patient who was able to stop TRT and be OK. As I understand it, this is for life. Please give me links to people's stories that prove otherwise, like from people that were able to get off TRT. And I'm so much against it because I don't see a difference between being a drug addict and being on TRT. Both are for life, both are expensive, both have side effects, both create addiction. That being said, I may have to do it anyway, but only as a last resort.... What if PSA goes up and I can't stop TRT because of inevitable crush? These things scare me... My T is as low as yours and I'm 36. My mother has thyroid problems and I think it runs in our family genetically, but I just learned that.

    So first I want to see if supplementing thyroid will help. I ordered dessicated thyroid... didn't come yet. I remember starting having these mild fatigue symptoms as far back as age 17. There's no way in hell that could be low T at that age. But it could be low thyroid. Low thyroid can be from birth. As far as thyroid panel tests that you mentioned - as I understand it, only morning temperature is a right indicator of thyroid function. My thyroid bloodwork is OK as well. But morning basal temperature is low. The longer I sleep (up to 12 hrs) the higher the temperature, but still below normal. That means that my thyroid is struggling to repair itself during sleep, just like the OP wrote. So, here I am trying to see if more sugar intake will repair my thyroid but I kinda doubt because it seems to have gotten beyond the point of self-repair.

    I hope you're right about being able to get off TRT after fixing thyroid, but I kind a doubt that it's possible. Although common sense tell me that thyroid is the boss of endocrine system because it's like thermostat regulating metabolic rate.
  53. HDD

    HDD Member

  54. tara

    tara Moderator

    Hi Aragorn,

    It sounds as though you have both made serious efforts to find good ways to counter the cancer. It is up to you whehter you have the time and energy to read and pursue more here. Remember that this forum is mostly a bunch of amateurs (there are some health professionals in here too, I think) who are trying to figure out Peat's ideas and how to use them. It is unlikely that anyone here can give you a definitive guaranteed program for your recovery or your wife's, though there is a lot of good will here and people do generally try to help each other.

    I don't know anywhere where there are lots of real life cases of high sugar cancer survivorship. You could try starting a dedicated thread for this, and maybe someone else will see it and point to something useful. My guess is that high mineral and vitamin content may be very important, and therefore juices may be preferable to relying primarily on cane sugar. I understand your urgency, and I wish it were simple to point to a big pool of verified successes. Maybe others can help. But if you want the best picture can of Peat's approach, you probably also have to keep going over his work to gradually get a better understanding. I had none of the background to understand his terminology either. I found that the more I read, the more I could see common themes in his writing, and gradually start to get more of a picture, but it is still no where near understanding it all. He does often include a list of practical steps to make use of the ideas he describes. Peat mentions a few women who rectified early signs of cervical cell disruption by IIRC topical vit-A application. I don't think you will find any guaranteed methods, but it is great that you keep on it and it will likely improve her odds. Of course you don't have to read more - you no doubt have your hands full, and information overload can be stressful. I personally am acquiring a better understanding of what is going on in my body by reading him, and find the challenge rewarding, so I am enthusiastic about it.

    I don't remember which of Peatarian's posts, but I think she was fighting cancer successfully, though I don't know which variety, and had been in contact with Peat. I read all her posts when I first got here, because she seemed knowledgeable, and she came to mind as a real life example. She's not posting here now - I wonder if Charlie knows how she's doing. She did dry CO2 baths amongst other things, and may have got through a bottle of progest-e a week for a while. There was also a drug, but I can't remember the name.

    Cancer field -if I've understood it - ie the physical - chemical - electrical field surrounding cancers - the environment around the cells that can support a cell in appropriate differentiation and restraint if it is favourable, or disrupt cells' more complex function and allow them to get into out-of-control replication. Cancers cells apparently put out messages and environment that encourages surrounding cells to become cancerous. Apparently there was quite a bit of research about cancer field theory a few decades ago, before the research moved to more genetic focus - ie rogue mutations in a cells genes cause it to proliferate and the cancer spreads because of this. The field theories are more inclined to say that mutations can be caused by the cancer field surrounding them, not just the replication of mutated genes. Gene theory tends to support cut/poison/burn methods, field theory recognises that cut/poison/burn can also disrupt the field further and encourage the spread of metastases. The field theory suggests that if you can change the immediate environment surrounding cancer cells, you may sometimes be able to get them to revert to differentiated, functioning, non-cancerous cells again.
    Have you read/listened to this interview yet? viewtopic.php?f=73&t=5750&p=68341

    Warburg demonstrated that cancers have deranged energy production - I think they tend to aerobic glycolysis. This ties in with low CO2.

    Haidut has posted a few studies related to cancer.

    I don't have a good grip on all the aspects of cancer metabolism. But I think the cancers themselves do modify the surrounding metabolism to convert protein to sugar.
    I know someone slightly who is currently outliving his drs prognosis by a small number of years. I don't know all the supplements he is prescribed, but I think his main source of food is fresh organic vege juice, and a little coconut oil.

    From various sources, I've got the impression the body pH is important - cancers prefer an overly acidic environment, and addressing this eg with appropriate calcium supplying food and/or supplements can be helpful. Normally, UpH of ~6.3ish to 6.7ish is ideal, but when fighting cancer it may be better to avoid the acid end and be on the more alkaline end of this range.

    If you haven't seen the threads mentioning Budwig's protocol and Gerson therapy, I'd recommend them too. I think there may be some discussion of the controversy. Also, Peat pointed out a bug in more recent versions of one of them (can't remember which) which made the current protocol different to the original successful one.)I have not studied either of them more than in passing, and do not know how helpful they can be, but I think maybe the original Budwig protocol used quark, and that cottage cheese is not the same. Gerson used coffee enemas, along with extremely low fat juice-based diet with no animal products, IIRC. I think there was a study of Buteyko method used against HIV AIDS, that showed his method could sometimes improve the outcomes for that disease, including associated cancers. His method has CO2 as central, and so does Peat's, though from different ends.

    If you do start another thread on this, you may want to post her diet, if she agrees.

    I don't know what I would do in her situation, and at some point I'd probably be assessing the info I could find about conventional treatments as well. I think there are times when removing tumours may be necessary, because when they get big enough they can interfere more with surrounding functions and also defend themselves more effectively. I think I would also be trying to incorporate as best I could:
    Good quality juices to supply sugars and minerals and vitamins and a tiny bit of protein
    Gelatin or glycine
    Aspirin to support oxidative metabolism
    Dry CO2 baths to raise CO2
    Raw carrot salad and cascara to reduce endotoxin burden
    Probably emphasising sugars over starches, but I might be guided by appetite or experienced effects with this
    High red light and low blue light.
    Extremely low PUFA, low or zero muscle meats, maybe low starch,
    Avoid poisons.
    And keep reading to see what else I could learn and use,
    Find the best dr I could.

    I wish your wife all the best.

    Your own deficiencies in thyroid and testosterone may have resulted from undernourishment, but that doesn't make PUFAs irrelevant during recovery. However, I do not know enough about the Budwig protocol to understand why it has seemed to work for some, so maybe there is something else going on there that I don't understand.
  55. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    I started gaining weight. 2lbs for 3 weeks. Is that due to increased sugar intake? Basically all I changed was starting taking 12 tsp of raw sugar a day with tea, as well as 16 oz of raw goat milk, which I also started. Why am I gaining weight?

    It is funny how Budwig supposed to be harmful and yet there are many testimonials about how it healed cancer, much more than those from Peat's followers, going back to even before internet came about. I'm not, by any means trying to say that Peat is wrong, I'm just pointing to horrible contradictions in the world of natural healing.

    In post by user HDD above, that patient underwent chemotherapy and yet there's an attempt to give testimonials to her natural part of treatment as being the key in her doing well. Plus, not with every chemo drug hair comes out. These 2 crucial facts were missing in that testimony.

    I'm sure Gerson's daughter wrongly adopted flaxseed oil in the original regimen. But Budwig herself has a whole scientific study behind her cottage cheese with flaxseed oil and it points to electrically charged molecules and flaxseed oil turning to water soluble fat etc....
  56. jyb

    jyb Member

    Getting carbs from white sugar is not the same as from lactose in milk (different metabolism) or from sugar in fruit (better nutrition if it comes from ripe fruit). I personally avoid eating white sugar and would rather increase my milk intake instead. I'm also wary of tea which is high in fluoride and other contaminants, so I mostly drink coffee.
  57. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    I've seen many, including OP of this thread, taking white sugar with milk. That's why I started taking it, too. Should I switch to milk only? Is raw cow milk ok?

    As far as fruit - I've been eating tonns if fruits even before I started taking more sugar 3 weeks ago. So if lack of fruits is to blame then I don't understand... God, this is confusing....
  58. Dean

    Dean Member

    I have heard Peat recommend adding sugar, or better yet--honey, to milk. Don't really recall his reasoning. It was a few years ago that I blitzed through listening to his radio interviews. It might have had something to do with helping to make galactose more easily digestible. This seems to be the case for me.
  59. jyb

    jyb Member

    I gave my version based on what works for me and think is healthy. I happen to drink raw milk too, never caused me problems. I never said you lacked fruit, in fact I personally don't find them essential at all compared to my dairy products. I don't have weight issues.
  60. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    Thank you. Do you think white sugar can actually make someone fat? What does Ray Peat say about that? It does not look like it increases my blood glucose as I thought it would... what about weight gain? Should it?
  61. tara

    tara Moderator

    Gaining/losing weight/fat is generally multifactorial. High sugar intake does not make for high fat gain in all people. Probably depends on current state, rest of diet, and history, and maybe other factors.

    If you've been undereating for a long time, and then you start to eat closer to your bodies needs, some of your depleted organs may start to rebuild. Often fat gain seems to precede or accompany gains in other tissues. If you are still only eating as in the crono pic above, then you are still undereating. After long undereating, the body is often primed for storing fat as soon as their is the slightest surplus, to help survive the next famine. If that is what you meant by a lot of fruit, I'd disagree - it looks like less than 100g sugar from all fruits and veges combined. My guess is full recovery will require more food, though exactly how to transition is controversial.
    Gaining weight after being half-starved is not necessarily a bad thing.

    I tend to chuckle when people talk about gaining 2-3 pounds. My weight can fluctuate by more than that from day to day, whether the overall trend is upward or downward or stable. Such small amounts can be water and glycogen - who knows if there is any actual new tissue of any kind. Maybe you just increased your glycogen stores slightly with a little more sugar. Or maybe not.

    If you eat a lot of refined sugar (or refined starch for that matter), it's important to make sure you are getting all the other nutrients you need. The pic shows lowish potassium. Fruits and veges tend to provide this, and potassium is essential for good carbohydrate metabolism. High phosphorus in relation to calcium, lowish on some of the B-vits and vit-E - can't remember if you are supplementing them. Magnesium needs vary quite a bit, because in low metabolic states we can have trouble retaining it - you may be getting enough, but not sure.
  62. Aragorn

    Aragorn Member

    By gaining weight I meant recently, within 3 weeks and after I started taking refined sugar. It's actually 5 lbs, not 2. Sugar was the major addition, I also started taking little bit of rye bread sometimes.

    I regained weight 3 years ago after being undernourished for 1.5 years. The recent belly gain (for last 3 weeks) was 190 lbs after being 185. I'm 5' 10".

    I will try to post a screenshot of more typical diet of mine. I do supplement magnesium but not potassium at the moment. The funny thing is that I've been taking tons of supplements all my life according to my current research at any given moment but I've never ever noticed any change from supplements.
  63. tara

    tara Moderator

    I fluctuate within a range of about 3 k (>6 lbs). I don't count a weight loss or gain unless I go outside that for a bit. If you are refilling glycogen with that sugar, it could account for quite a bit of the new weight. Not certain, just possible.

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