My Journey To Optimal Health

[Cirion]

I just had this whacky idea: Hooking yourself up at night with a steady stream of IV glucose and maybe minerals and vitamins to completely stop the stress response when sleeping. Pretty impractical, but it sounds cool and effective when I think about it. Bodybuilders pin themselves for gains, we are going to pin ourselves for health maybe?

Actually this is a great idea lol. But yeah, impractical for most. This might be something I wish for when I'm really old and in assisted living care though... it'd definitely keep me alive and reasonably healthy for a longer period of time...

Good idea, except maybe something more practical.

@Cirion Have you considered maybe dextrose before bed might help keep storage glycogen high enough for long enough? I know you said you have used it in the past. Its just glucose so it will be easier on the liver. Then again it might just be total glycogen storage is too low in that case it has to be raised and likely nothing else matters until that is taken care of. Is a graph with organ intake not reasonable? Weird, but certainly reasonable, right?

I don't have dextrose before bed but I definitely have lots of carbs in general before bed.

Main problems I have:

1.) Glucose storage is poor, requiring frequent refeeding of glucose, I don't think I've ever been able to go more than 4-6 hr without sugar/carbs and that's my upper limit, not my usual limit. I only last that long when I am super-saturated (over 1,000 gram of carbs) for the day.
2.) Glucose expenditure rate is obscenely fast (hence needing that many carbs in the first place)
-- likely because of a lot of carbs wasted into lactic acid

Couple #2 with #1 and it's a disaster.

Yeah I've tracked metrics as a function of specific food intakes before. Not a bad idea to do that with liver. Avoiding glucose depletion at ALL costs is the goal. Once glucose is depleted, the body floods with cysteine and tryptophan and PUFA and also numerous other toxins from fat stores. Absolutely disasterous to the metabolism.

I will just have to have a large shot of sugar (at least 100 gram) essentially every time I wake up at night. Which is basically what RP suggests anyway. I frequently get lazy about this though.

I also realized the other day that one can indeed deplete bodyfat without a calorie deficit, and sort of what this looks like. It is actually quite simple. The half-life of fat is about 400 days, which means it will slowly deplete assuming you aren't actively re-accumulating it. I'm not quite sure the mechanism behind how this works exactly. It kinda reminds me of "Ullage" effect in liquid rockets. In liquid rockets you literally lose your fuel to evaporation since it has to be stored cryogenically at almost absolute zero so just in the time it is on the launch pad to launch you lose about 5% of your fuel. Of course, this means it takes approximately a year to cut your fat stores in half, so it takes a while, but with patience, and maintaining a good metabolism so you don't store more fat along the way etc, it will eventually fade away hopefully and probably will also shed a little quicker with an improved metabolism also. This has been my goal from the start. If you can maintain glucose stores 24/7, this is pretty much the #1 key to metabolism IMO now. By preventing the release of anti-metabolic AA's cysteine and tryptophan and PUFA and all of that mess, you protect your body, and protecting your body allows T3 and androgens to increase which increases the metabolism and CO2 levels and ultimately things finally start to improve and body fat will finally start to deplete, water bloat will finally start to deplete. And so when Kelj says in her thread that "starvation is the great stress" this is in fact what she is referring to, and now I find myself in complete agreement, although I just diverge from her methods to do that.

 

[redsun]

Actually this is a great idea lol. But yeah, impractical for most. This might be something I wish for when I'm really old and in assisted living care though... it'd definitely keep me alive and reasonably healthy for a longer period of time...



I don't have dextrose before bed but I definitely have lots of carbs in general before bed.

Main problems I have:

1.) Glucose storage is poor, requiring frequent refeeding of glucose, I don't think I've ever been able to go more than 4-6 hr without sugar/carbs and that's my upper limit, not my usual limit. I only last that long when I am super-saturated (over 1,000 gram of carbs) for the day.
2.) Glucose expenditure rate is obscenely fast (hence needing that many carbs in the first place)
-- likely because of a lot of carbs wasted into lactic acid

Couple #2 with #1 and it's a disaster.

Yeah I've tracked metrics as a function of specific food intakes before. Not a bad idea to do that with liver. Avoiding glucose depletion at ALL costs is the goal. Once glucose is depleted, the body floods with cysteine and tryptophan and PUFA and also numerous other toxins from fat stores. Absolutely disasterous to the metabolism.

I will just have to have a large shot of sugar (at least 100 gram) essentially every time I wake up at night. Which is basically what RP suggests anyway. I frequently get lazy about this though.

I also realized the other day that one can indeed deplete bodyfat without a calorie deficit, and sort of what this looks like. It is actually quite simple. The half-life of fat is about 400 days, which means it will slowly deplete assuming you aren't actively re-accumulating it. I'm not quite sure the mechanism behind how this works exactly. It kinda reminds me of "Ullage" effect in liquid rockets. In liquid rockets you literally lose your fuel to evaporation since it has to be stored cryogenically at almost absolute zero so just in the time it is on the launch pad to launch you lose about 5% of your fuel. Of course, this means it takes approximately a year to cut your fat stores in half, so it takes a while, but with patience, and maintaining a good metabolism so you don't store more fat along the way etc, it will eventually fade away hopefully and probably will also shed a little quicker with an improved metabolism also. This has been my goal from the start. If you can maintain glucose stores 24/7, this is pretty much the #1 key to metabolism IMO now. By preventing the release of anti-metabolic AA's cysteine and tryptophan and PUFA and all of that mess, you protect your body, and protecting your body allows T3 and androgens to increase which increases the metabolism and CO2 levels and ultimately things finally start to improve and body fat will finally start to deplete, water bloat will finally start to deplete. And so when Kelj says in her thread that "starvation is the great stress" this is in fact what she is referring to, and now I find myself in complete agreement, although I just diverge from her methods to do that.

Ray says a bit differently on half life:

4 Grams Of PUFA A Day Is Not A Threshold

"In the 1940s, some of the toxic effects of fish oil (such as testicular degeneration, softening of the brain, muscle damage, and spontaneous cancer) were found to result from an induced vitamin E deficiency. Unfortunately, there isn't much reason to think that just supplementing vitamin E will provide general protection against the unsaturated fats. The half-life of fats in human adipose tissue is about 600 days, meaning that significant amounts of previously consumed oils will still be present up to four years after they have been removed from the diet. [4] According to Draper, et al., [5] enrichment of the tissues with highly unsaturated fatty acids results in an increase in lipid peroxidation in vivo even in the presence of normal concentrations of vitamin E. Fasting for more than 24 hours also results in an increase in MDA excretion, implying that lipolysis is associated with peroxidation of the fatty acids released."


As for fat depleting slowly... assuming you don't store more, it works and this is exactly how fat-free diets work. Assuming you burn all the fat you eat in a day, that's fat that doesn't leave the body stores. The technical best way to deplete body fat(which is the slowest as well probably) is just to not eat any fat or very little as fat is always being burned anyway. The half life of fat wont really make a difference besides in the context of PUFA. I can't remember where I saw it here but I think the less then .05% PUFA is ideal for fat loss. It may bring it on quicker. But that's less than 2g a day for most people, that's difficult to do without eliminating most foods.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah 600 days that's right. It's a long time, but I don't mind. I just want to finally get things moving in the right direction, and I'll be happy. I'm perfectly happy to wait a year or two for a full recovery, knowing that I'm on the right track. Unfortunately I derailed myself this year, but as I collect more and more data I get closer to the truth..... I hate my younger self for being stupid. I screwed around for over a year and didn't start collecting data until this year. I'd probably be healed by now. Well, on the bright side I'll have an epic recovery story to tell when this is all said and done...

Yeah I have data that suggests that essentially eating zero dietary fat is the best thing for metabolism as well and its basically my strategy also.

-- Zero fat
-- Minimize tryptophan, cystine
-- Maximize gelatin/pro AA's
-- ??
-- Profit

It takes willpower to eat zero fat as its not always pleasant, but the fact is it results in my best waking temps and overall best moods, best energy, and best long term wt. loss.

Zero fat diet is also the easiest way to get less than 2 gram pufa a day. I hate this way of eating, its super boring and restrictive, and now even more restrictive w/ the cystine limiter on top of the tryptophan limiter, but it's simply the only way. Suck it up buttercup as they say. Might be able to throw a tbsp or two of coconut oil in the mix, but other than that, no fat. Maybe the true value of coconut oil is having it around night time? When you know at least some exposure to FFA is inevitable? Especially when you have a **** liver like I do? Maybe also good for when you wake up in the middle of the night. Chug a tbsp of coconut oil, a tbsp of gelatin, in a cup of juice or something.

Pretty much my diet is going to be reduced to gelatin, juice, honey, maple syrup, fruit, maybe still have rice and potatoes, maybe occasional liverwurst/liver, maybe some coconut oil 1-2 tbsp here and there. Maybe bone broth protein powder and dextrose shakes if I get the itch to try some of the bone broth protein powder I've seen around. Supplemental B vitamins, choline, etc., anything else that is not covered by those foods. That's pretty much it...... lol

 

[Mufasa]

Yeah 600 days that's right. It's a long time, but I don't mind. I just want to finally get things moving in the right direction, and I'll be happy. I'm perfectly happy to wait a year or two for a full recovery, knowing that I'm on the right track. Unfortunately I derailed myself this year, but as I collect more and more data I get closer to the truth..... I hate my younger self for being stupid. I screwed around for over a year and didn't start collecting data until this year. I'd probably be healed by now. Well, on the bright side I'll have an epic recovery story to tell when this is all said and done...

Yeah I have data that suggests that essentially eating zero dietary fat is the best thing for metabolism as well and its basically my strategy also.

-- Zero fat
-- Minimize tryptophan, cystine
-- Maximize gelatin/pro AA's
-- ??
-- Profit

It takes willpower to eat zero fat as its not always pleasant, but the fact is it results in my best waking temps and overall best moods, best energy, and best long term wt. loss.

Zero fat diet is also the easiest way to get less than 2 gram pufa a day. I hate this way of eating, its super boring and restrictive, and now even more restrictive w/ the cystine limiter on top of the tryptophan limiter, but it's simply the only way. Suck it up buttercup as they say. Might be able to throw a tbsp or two of coconut oil in the mix, but other than that, no fat. Maybe the true value of coconut oil is having it around night time? When you know at least some exposure to FFA is inevitable? Especially when you have a **** liver like I do? Maybe also good for when you wake up in the middle of the night. Chug a tbsp of coconut oil, a tbsp of gelatin, in a cup of juice or something.

Pretty much my diet is going to be reduced to gelatin, juice, honey, maple syrup, fruit, maybe still have rice and potatoes, maybe occasional liverwurst/liver, maybe some coconut oil 1-2 tbsp here and there. Maybe bone broth protein powder and dextrose shakes if I get the itch to try some of the bone broth protein powder I've seen around. Supplemental B vitamins, choline, etc., anything else that is not covered by those foods. That's pretty much it...... lol

I have some experience on going all in for gelatin but I think you will be too high in arginine and too low in lysine. My girlfriend got all kind of viral problems when doing this. Which according to Peat can also cause chronic fatigue.

I would try to add some low fat fish or whey protein free dairy. Personally I do great on skyr.

 

[milkboi]

I have some experience on going all in for gelatin but I think you will be too high in arginine and too low in lysine. My girlfriend got all kind of viral problems when doing this. Which according to Peat can also cause chronic fatigue.

I would try to add some low fat fish or whey protein free dairy. Personally I do great on skyr.

Yeah agreed, Arginine is a b****. I would at least supplement some lysine @Cirion if I were you.

 

[lampofred]

Have you considered adding in progesterone? You are basically eating sugar and gelatin (which turns into glucose and is the only protein that doesn't drop blood sugar). So fundamentally you are raising blood sugar and lowering FFA. Which has the effect of lowering serotonin and raising GABA. So adding progesterone might support that.

 

[Cirion]

Well, I already have chronic fatigue so it can't get any worse. Anyway, I already have some experience doing this myself and it makes my temperatures go up +1.0F and it's quite the opposite of chronic fatigue. But if I start to run into any issues I'll remember what you guys said about Lysine though.

 

[milkboi]

Well, I already have chronic fatigue so it can't get any worse. Anyway, I already have some experience doing this myself and it makes my temperatures go up +1.0F and it's quite the opposite of chronic fatigue. But if I start to run into any issues I'll remember what you guys said about Lysine though.

Hmm, sometimes prevention is a lot more time effective than healing a condition you already developed. The many grams of Arginine will surely be converted to nitric oxide, you sure don‘t want that right?

 

[Mufasa]

Well, I already have chronic fatigue so it can't get any worse. Anyway, I already have some experience doing this myself and it makes my temperatures go up +1.0F and it's quite the opposite of chronic fatigue. But if I start to run into any issues I'll remember what you guys said about Lysine though.

Cool, My girlfriend also doesn’t tolerate diary, and supplements lysine.

 

[Cirion]

I'm honestly not a fan of supplementing individual amino acids. Not even glycine. Hence eating gelatin, not glycine. Ray doesn't seem to talk about lysine much. But I'll definitely at least do some research on recommended lysine intake and see how I stand relative to that, and see if maybe there are some plant proteins that supply sufficient lysine instead.

 

[milkboi]

In this context Lysine‘s most important function is to block the absorption of Arginine.

 

[Cirion]

Any idea of optimal Lysin:Arginine ratio? Just some quick looking through a lot of my old data, it seems the highest I ever got was roughly 1:1 maybe a little more. In my investigations of protein, I am mulling the idea of adding casein powder to my diet potentially. If I did that, then the lysine:arginine ratio easily hits 1:1 again. I would find that more preferable to just straight supplementing lysine (Assuming casein powder and me mix). Casein powder was one of the main proteins that Nathan Hatch used in his book F*** portion control. Also, protein powders used to be a staple in my diet back when I was healthy. I think powders probably do get digested a lot better than whole foods. But, until I experiment, it's only theory. Either way, I want to go on an animal product purge the rest of this week just to cleanse my gut, then maybe I'll experiment w/ that next.

 

[Cirion]

Still trying to figure out my exact game plan armed with my new data regarding Cystine and animal products in general, but here are some things I am considering

-- Cutting out ALL starch and ONLY consuming sugar for carbs. Starch has cystine and tryptophan in it, actually rather large amounts on a per gram of protein basis which is a problem.

-- As mentioned previously, ONLY using powders and gelatin for protein. That's it. No meat, no starch (not even potato, although maybe I'll keep this in limited amounts like 1 lb a day. I feel like even potatoes bloat me, and probably partly due to the cystine and tryptophan). Will be a super simple diet, but I'm fine with that, as long as it helps me recover. In my opinion now any food that tends to promote bloat is an unhealthy food. Conversely some other things I've noticed never bloat me like maple syrup, despite its high caloric density.

If I cut out starch I can bring my cystine and tryptophan to almost zero a day. The only source at all in fact would be from bone broth protein (Trying this first before casein as its lower in tryptophan) but this wouldn't have much.

 

[Taotatoes]

Oh man... if I cut out all food that bloats me I'd be a starving Marvin. You go man, got my fingers crossed for you.

 

[Cirion]

Haha yeah it's tricky to do especially when my calorie goals are around 4500 a day.

First scoop of bone broth protein powder under my belt --- so far so good. I mixed it with my grape juice, some salt, and choline powder. I made sure I was hyper aware of how my brain energy felt from it. It seems to be good so far. No major energy drop, but no major "positive" energy increase either, which is not bad since I'm at a slightly above energy state right now (could still be better, but I know things aren't going to be perfect for a while yet and that's OK). But sometimes grape juice on its own does crash my energy, and I didn't get the same sensation. I do notice a very slight haze after each sip that seems to go away within a few seconds or so which is weird.

At least first impression? Seems like a solid protein source. But time will tell.

IMO the most important thing will be... How does it impact my waking temperatures and pulses? That'll be the thing that really matters.

 

[Cirion]

Just had an interesting experience to close off the day. Decided to have another scoop of bone broth in maple syrup some water and some salt and step into my nightly epsom salt bath for a bit. The difference is this time I loaded up the bath with like double the baking soda I normally do also, because the container was g etting lowish and I said screw it and dumped it all in. Well, I was in for a treat. I experienced probably what I'll say is the most bliss I have felt in weeks or months even. I thought maybe its the bone broth (and I think that helped) but once I got out the feeling went away.

I think now it was actually the CO2 from doubling up on baking soda. Well then......... I think I found something new to do to boost CO2 levels. Time to use that double dosage of baking soda again in the future and see if I can replicate the feeling of euphoria I got (4 cups of baking soda if anyone is curious to try it also)... Lord knows life owes me some euphoria after the crap I've had to endure. If I can replicate this experience again, I might have to do some VoS style experiments with CO2... cuz yeah, that feeling was really good and I want it more. Brain fog was completely gone, it was great.

This has also made me want to revisit buying a Capnograph so I can add CO2 to my measurements. This experience changed how I view CO2. It's not just some cute little supplement that is part of the Ray Peat stack. No, now I wonder if CO2 isn't everything in and of itself... ev en more important than diet... That's pretty much how VoS felt too.

Maybe on weekends I'll just dump like 8 cups in and stay in the tub all day LOL

I now think any time euphoria is felt that healing is going on (assuming its from something healthy like CO2 and good nutrition and not from stims), so I could get significant healing if I could get that feeling all day long likely.

 

[iLoveSugar]

I'm in your boat man. Been lean most my life. Highest I ever got was 165. I'm now at 190 and feel fat. The effects got me to. It even hurts my feet to walk. I'd be ok if it was temporary, but it just keeps climbing and climbing.

 

[redsun]

I'm in your boat man. Been lean most my life. Highest I ever got was 165. I'm now at 190 and feel fat. The effects got me to. It even hurts my feet to walk. I'd be ok if it was temporary, but it just keeps climbing and climbing.

I feel obligated to post this despite it being the obvious next step:

Don't let it climb any further man. Don't let the weight climb and start making it drop. There are about a million and one ways to do that so there is no reason to force any ideas on you. Search around this forum. The search bar is your friend. Ask some vets for help. Read and read and look at all the methods many here have tried and tested to drop weight that they gained(usually gained on Peating) and sustain their weight comfortably. Find a method that you are okay with doing. There are too many reasons be they physical(healthwise), mental, emotional on why being overweight is not good for humans.

 

[iLoveSugar]

About a minth ago I started walking 1-2 miles per day (despite very painful feet), and lifting 3 days a week. It's tough, but I'm pushing through it. I feel more accomplished when I get done as well.

I feel obligated to post this despite it being the obvious next step:

Don't let it climb any further man. Don't let the weight climb and start making it drop. There are about a million and one ways to do that so there is no reason to force any ideas on you. Search around this forum. The search bar is your friend. Ask some vets for help. Read and read and look at all the methods many here have tried and tested to drop weight that they gained(usually gained on Peating) and sustain their weight comfortably. Find a method that you are okay with doing. There are too many reasons be they physical(healthwise), mental, emotional on why being overweight is not good for humans.

 

[redsun]

About a minth ago I started walking 1-2 miles per day (despite very painful feet), and lifting 3 days a week. It's tough, but I'm pushing through it. I feel more accomplished when I get done as well.

Well exercise itself usually doesnt result in weight loss except muscle built from weight training can slowly do that. I meant things like low fat diet or very low fat diet, food is only protein and carbs. Pretty powerful diet for weight loss and health for that matter as long as it limits fructose which can increase fat because fructose can easily convert to fat once glycogen is saturated. That's just one example out of 20.