My Journey To Optimal Health

[Cirion]

I think I have found the main offender out of all the amino acids. (Skull added for emphasis)

And of course tryptophan which I already knew:

There is some relationship for Histidine and Methionine but the effects aren't as dramatic as Cystine and Tryptophan. I haven't looked much into Cystine like I have tryptophan. I think it's time that I do, though. What foods are low in cysteine? Looks like gelatin is a zero cysteine food, that's good. Seeing these trends, I can only conclude that Cystine and Tryptophan are truly the Death amino acids

 

[Vinny]

I only care what my own experiment says.

This is, without any doubt, the best approach!

 

[Cirion]

And, ladies and gentleman, here it is, I have just discovered and proved what the man RP himself said.

The amino acids that constitute protein have many hormone-like functions in their free state. When our glucose (glycogen) stores have been depleted, we convert our own tissue into free amino acids, some of which are used to produce new glucose. The amino acids cysteine and tryptophan, released in large quantities during stress, have antimetabolic (thyroid-suppressing) and, eventually, toxic effects. Hypothyroidism itself increases the catabolic turnover of protein, even though general metabolism is slowed.

In the industrialized societies, the consumption of gelatin has decreased, relative to the foods that contain an inappropriately high proportion of the antimetabolic amino acids, especially tryptophan and cysteine.

Reference:
Gelatin, stress, longevity

Today is one of those days where I just LOVE ray peat. Guy is freaking genius. But it takes a lot of experimenting and research to fully appreciate what he says sometimes...

 

[Vinny]

And, ladies and gentleman, here it is, I have just discovered and proved what the man RP himself said.





Reference:
Gelatin, stress, longevity

Today is one of those days where I just LOVE ray peat. Guy is freaking genius. But it takes a lot of experimenting and research to fully appreciate what he says sometimes...

Boom!

 

[Cirion]

Boom!

Clearly a few things are clear from this:

1.) Hypothyroid makes you lose lots of protein. This means intaking some extra protein is needed to replenish the loss. Thus veganism is not ideal.

Hypothyroidism itself increases the catabolic turnover of protein, even though general metabolism is slowed.

2.) However, eating tryptophan and cysteine is bad of which all meat is rich in
3.) Gelatin does not have tryptophan and cysteine
4.) Eat gelatin
5.) Profit

I've been eating gelatin already, but I think its time to increase the dosage.

In some of the older studies, therapeutic results improved when the daily gelatin was increased. Since 30 grams of glycine was commonly used for treating muscular dystrophy and myasthenia gravis, a daily intake of 100 grams of gelatin wouldn't seem unreasonable, and some people find that quantities in that range help to decrease fatigue. For a growing child, though, such a large amount of refined gelatin would tend to displace other important foods. The National Academy of Sciences recently reviewed the requirements for working adults (male and female soldiers, in particular), and suggested that 100 grams of balanced protein was needed for efficient work. For adults, a large part of that could be in the form of gelatin.

I eat 36 gram a day now. Time to double it to 72 me thinks. RP says you can go as high as 100 gram of gelatin (or 100 gram of protein from gelatin a day). If you combine up to 100g gelatin with a few plant proteins to make sure you don't miss a few trace aminos you're probably golden.

 

[Vinny]

If you combine up to 100g gelatin with a few plant proteins to make sure you don't miss a few trace aminos you're probably golden.

Now, you made me throw away my juicy chops... Or, better feed some stray cats (many here). At least, someone will have a feast...

 

[Andy316]

Thanks Cirion. Whats your experience with Lamb does it contain lot of Tryptophan? Also apart from avoiding poultry, eggs, milk what are the better ways to remove excess Tryptophan from body?

Clearly a few things are clear from this:

1.) Hypothyroid makes you lose lots of protein. This means intaking some extra protein is needed to replenish the loss. Thus veganism is not ideal.
2.) However, eating tryptophan and cysteine is bad of which all meat is rich in
3.) Gelatin does not have tryptophan and cysteine
4.) Eat gelatin
5.) Profit

I've been eating gelatin already, but I think its time to increase the dosage.



I eat 36 gram a day now. Time to double it to 72 me thinks. RP says you can go as high as 100 gram of gelatin (or 100 gram of protein from gelatin a day). If you combine up to 100g gelatin with a few plant proteins to make sure you don't miss a few trace aminos you're probably golden.

 

[Cirion]

Thanks Cirion. Whats your experience with Lamb does it contain lot of Tryptophan? Also apart from avoiding poultry, eggs, milk what are the better ways to remove excess Tryptophan from body?

I don't know off the top of my head but as far as animal meat goes, I am pretty sure lamb is one of the more benign. Unfortunately, my health is so poor currently that even the most benign (lamb, beef) etc animal products still don't work for me.

I am not the expert on it, but I think haidut wrote some good posts about tryptophan depletion. Some options are

- Don't eat tryptophan in the first place
- Serotonin lowering strategies (caffeine, aspirin, methylene blue, etc...)
- BCAA's
- Glycine
- Gelatin
- Sunlight / redlight
- Anything else that reduces the Fernstrom ratio (Tryptophan / (Valine + Tyrosine + Isoleucine + Leucine + Phenylalanine))

... Not an exhaustive list. Just what came up at the top of my head.

 

[Andy316]

Thanks Cirion. Just looked up this list and all the foods listed gives me bloating and Im hypothyroid too (Top 10 Foods Highest in Tryptophan). I may have to try cutting meats and eggs for a week or 2 and see.

I don't know off the top of my head but as far as animal meat goes, I am pretty sure lamb is one of the more benign. Unfortunately, my health is so poor currently that even the most benign (lamb, beef) etc animal products still don't work for me.

I am not the expert on it, but I think haidut wrote some good posts about tryptophan depletion. Some options are

- Don't eat tryptophan in the first place
- Serotonin lowering strategies (caffeine, aspirin, methylene blue, etc...)
- BCAA's
- Glycine
- Gelatin
- Sunlight / redlight
- Anything else that reduces the Fernstrom ratio (Tryptophan / (Valine + Tyrosine + Isoleucine + Leucine + Phenylalanine))

... Not an exhaustive list. Just what came up at the top of my head.

 

[Cirion]

Thanks Cirion. Just looked up this list and all the foods listed gives me bloating and Im hypothyroid too (Top 10 Foods Highest in Tryptophan). I may have to try cutting meats and eggs for a week or 2 and see.

Good luck man. Let me know what happens and if you notice massive increases in metabolism like I did (especially waking body temperatures).

This effect seems a lot less pronounced in people who are lean. All of the young 20 somethings are big fans of meat products when being early 20 and lean tends to let you tolerate lots of suboptimal foods (no offense @redsun, I do actually love you, no homo =P). The only other people I'm seeing seeing any sort of success on lots of meat are either doing lots of calorie restriction, massive thyroid supplementation, massive caffeine intake, or other forceful strategies. Or they're fortunate enough to live a zero stress life (retired on the beach or something).

 

[lampofred]

RP hasn't explicitly mentioned this, but I think needing high doses of gelatin might be a sign of high mental activity (too much thinking, rumination). Thoughtlessness spares glucose and thinking, for some people, is a stressor that powerfully increases FFA and liberates tryptophan/cysteine from muscles because their brains consume so much glucose, making them need high doses of gelatin to counteract the tryptophan/cysteine in the bloodstream.

 

[Cirion]

RP hasn't explicitly mentioned this, but I think needing high doses of gelatin is a sign of high mental activity (too much thinking, rumination). Thoughtlessness spares glucose and thinking, for some people, is a stressor that powerfully increases FFA and liberates tryptophan/cysteine from muscles because their brains consume so much glucose, making them need high doses of gelatin to counteract the tryptophan/cysteine in the bloodstream.

Well Ray did say that a walk in nature expends more calories than a walk on a treadmill, because the walk in nature is more mentally stimulating. I have a higher than average IQ, so it's totally plausible I spend more glucose in my brain as a result.

But how does that explain running out of glucose so easily at night when the mind mostly shuts off?

Well the only reason tryptophan and cysteine is liberated in the first place is insufficient glucose intake. You can prevent this by eating a high carb diet. And my data I posted earlier today shows precisely this. But yes, gelatin would also be needed to prevent the breakdown of muscle tissue but not intake cysteine or tryptophan from food.

 

[lampofred]

But how does that explain running out of glucose so easily at night when the mind mostly shuts off?

Are you getting deep slow wave sleep sleep? Or dreaming sleep? In dreaming sleep the mind is more active than even when awake.

 

[redsun]

Good luck man. Let me know what happens and if you notice massive increases in metabolism like I did (especially waking body temperatures).

This effect seems a lot less pronounced in people who are lean. All of the young 20 somethings are big fans of meat products when being early 20 and lean tends to let you tolerate lots of suboptimal foods (no offense @redsun, I do actually love you, no homo =P). The only other people I'm seeing seeing any sort of success on lots of meat are either doing lots of calorie restriction, massive thyroid supplementation, massive caffeine intake, or other forceful strategies. Or they're fortunate enough to live a zero stress life (retired on the beach or something).

Well there are arguments against eating muscle meats that have some grounding. But as for organs, the most rich sources of nutrients on the planet earth, those are superb sources of food(assuming organic, grassfed) regardless of whether you think animal flesh is bad or not. Maybe a steak may not do well with some because though its nutrient dense, its not that nutrient dense of a food. You sure as hell can't live off steak as its nutrition is imcomplete, but liver, heart, etc puts to shame just about every other food there is.

You have these raw carnivores eating organs just like they are and healing themselves. Nutrient density trumps a lot of other supposed problems with flesh. Ray himself recommends liver weekly(or twice weekly, cant recall) because of the nutrient density, he'd be a fool if he didn't. But he's Ray Peat, one of the most intelligent, so of course he recommends eating arguably the most nutrient dense food, liver.

 

[lampofred]

Reading Dr. Peat's articles on language and intelligence, I think it's the "hot" language-driven mind that burns through glucose as opposed to the "cool" intuitive mind. I wonder if it was the time he spent in Russia that gave him all these counterculture (but brilliant) ideas for articles.

And too much organ meat can give you gout...

 

[Cirion]

Well there are arguments against eating muscle meats that have some grounding. But as for organs, the most rich sources of nutrients on the planet earth, those are superb sources of food(assuming organic, grassfed) regardless of whether you think animal flesh is bad or not. Maybe a steak may not do well with some because though its nutrient dense, its not that nutrient dense of a food. You sure as hell can't live off steak as its nutrition is imcomplete, but liver, heart, etc puts to shame just about every other food there is.

You have these raw carnivores eating organs just like they are and healing themselves. Nutrient density trumps a lot of other supposed problems with flesh. Ray himself recommends liver weekly(or twice weekly, cant recall) because of the nutrient density, he'd be a fool if he didn't. But he's Ray Peat, one of the most intelligent, so of course he recommends eating arguably the most nutrient dense food, liver.

Can't fairly say one way or another how I feel about organ meats. I do have liverwurst I ordered a while back that I have sometimes, but it has regular ground beef in it as well so its not pure organ meat, and does seem to give me some problems, but as its not pure organ meat, can't fairly comment I suppose. I have never really had pure liver. Even still, I think you shouldn't have liver every day? Doesn't he say 1-2x a week max? Even with the liverwurst, which does contain some beef, maybe if you limited it to 1x a week, maybe it would mitigate the long-term damage from the cysteine and tryptophan it might have.

I think @Amazoniac posted a study that was done that showed feeding liver to people with liver disease, was in fact, one of the best protocols to healing their own liver along with supplemental B vitamins and choline.

 

[redsun]

Can't fairly say one way or another how I feel about organ meats. I do have liverwurst I ordered a while back that I have sometimes, but it has regular ground beef in it as well so its not pure organ meat, and does seem to give me some problems, but as its not pure organ meat, can't fairly comment I suppose. I have never really had pure liver. Even still, I think you shouldn't have liver every day? Doesn't he say 1-2x a week max? Even with the liverwurst, which does contain some beef, maybe if you limited it to 1x a week, maybe it would mitigate the long-term damage from the cysteine and tryptophan it might have.

Yes that's what I believe he said. I can't recall exactly why, but I think the insane vitamin A content and too high copper is likely why. Its the only organ with insane copper content. Chicken liver is pretty close to beef and doesnt have the insane copper content, so if one wanted to have small amounts of liver daily I think chicken liver would be better. But then there's the insane Vitamin A thats still there that may cause problems eventually(hard to say).

Heart, brain, kidney, has neither high copper or Vitamin A. I have tasted heart before. Tastes like regular meat almost, seeing as the heart is a muscle, but its a much more nutritious muscle. The high B12 content is nice as well as everything else. I gotta try chicken liver and see how I like the taste. Organs have much higher glycine content which is one of the reasons why they are better.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah I'll have to think on this further.

Maybe like I say its worth considering the liverwurst 1x a week for now, and once I exhaust my stock of it (I have a few lbs left) consider what I want to do next. Meanwhile not eating ANY other animal proteins except gelatin (technically gelatin comes from animals of course).

 

[milkboi]

I just had this whacky idea: Hooking yourself up at night with a steady stream of IV glucose and maybe minerals and vitamins to completely stop the stress response when sleeping. Pretty impractical, but it sounds cool and effective when I think about it. Bodybuilders pin themselves for gains, we are going to pin ourselves for health maybe?

 

[redsun]

I just had this whacky idea: Hooking yourself up at night with a steady stream of IV glucose and maybe minerals and vitamins to completely stop the stress response when sleeping. Pretty impractical, but it sounds cool and effective when I think about it. Bodybuilders pin themselves for gains, we are going to pin ourselves for health maybe?

Good idea, except maybe something more practical.

@Cirion Have you considered maybe dextrose before bed might help keep storage glycogen high enough for long enough? I know you said you have used it in the past. Its just glucose so it will be easier on the liver. Then again it might just be total glycogen storage is too low in that case it has to be raised and likely nothing else matters until that is taken care of. Is a graph with organ intake not reasonable? Weird, but certainly reasonable, right?