In Defense of Starch - TCM and eating many cold/damp foods (fruit/milk) seems to be anti-metabolic ?

[Shackles]

You could .... warm the milk. Do you drink it cold?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

On a side note…

High milk consumption as an adult just doesn’t seem right. Milk should be an addition to your diet, like a supplement. A few teaspoons in your coffee, a glass of milk with your breakfast and that’s about it.
Makes much more sense to me to consume dairy in the forms of hard/ semi-hard salty cheese or cottage cheese.
Gorging on chocolate milk is for kids, not grown men.

 

[Nomane Euger]

On a side note…

High milk consumption as an adult just doesn’t seem right. Milk should be an addition to your diet, like a supplement. A few teaspoons in your coffee, a glass of milk with your breakfast and that’s about it.
Makes much more sense to me to consume dairy in the forms of hard/ semi-hard salty cheese or cottage cheese.
Gorging on chocolate milk is for kids, not grown men.

Why doesn’t it seems right?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

I agree with this.

On multiple occasions now I've tried cutting out ALL starch and getting my carbs from milk, fruits and honey for several months at a time. One of the worst symptoms I used to have was feeling poisoned/sick (especially in the morning), which I assumed to be endotoxin-driven, hence why I cut out the starch. My experience with zero starch is that it made me feel a bit better in the short-term, but in the long-term it made my situation way worse; more endotoxin issues, weaker digestion, poor immunity, skin infections, feeling cold, low sex drive, dandruff, and the list goes on. Perhaps because all the cold/damp foods like milk and juice and honey was killing my already weak digestive fire and allowing pathogenic bacteria and fungus to set up shop?

The only problem was that I couldn't go back to eating starches again without feeling really sick. It's taken me AGES to be able to eat some damn rice or oatmeal without feeling like crap, but after a lot of tweaks I can now digest starchy carbs again and I really feel 10000% better than on a zero starch diet. No endotoxin symptoms at all and I wake up feeling normal, not like a truck ran over me a hundred times.

For me I think the main problem was a sluggish gallbladder → no bile acids to detoxify endotoxin and gut dysbiosis.

I’m guessing if you get cold with high fruits it’s because of not enough protein and fats in the diet.
Protein is thermogenic, can help in staying warm.

 

[GreekDemiGod]

Why doesn’t it seems right?

It fills your belly.
It does not mix well with alcoholic drinks.
It tends to make your taste buds bland.

 

[aniciete]

It fills your belly.
It does not mix well with alcoholic drinks.
It tends to make your taste buds bland.

It would fill your belly if you can’t digest it properly and why is it an issue if it doesn’t mix with alcoholic drinks?

 

[GreekDemiGod]

It would fill your belly if you can’t digest it properly and why is it an issue if it doesn’t mix with alcoholic drinks?

If you've been drinking milk all day and one night you go out to an event or gathering, where you may want to have a drink or two.

 

[Waynish]

Correct. Being out of balance is anti-metabolic even more than most Peat recommendations. And in the modern world so many people have excessive dampness. This causes digestive problems. Where does nastiness grow in one's house or temple? Where it is dark & damp! I've worked in clinics before and saw the dampness being pushed out of many sickly people - and it is obvious. Think of the stereotypical unhealthy person exercising... They're all gooey and it is a nasty kind of sweat. A well cooked potato with butter and meat is anti-damp - and people who are damp will all get way warmer after eating that vs eating ice cream. I've never actually seen an exception to that in real life and I can't imagine how & why Peat's clinical experience is so different from mine.

"I rarely ever see this topic discussed in RP and I do see many people on the forum have trouble having a lifestyle tolerating mainly liquid/damp food (i.e. focusing on mainly only fruit/dairy)" -- I've been mentioning it on this forum for years but it always gets ignored.

Even in this very thread everyone is talking about "starch" and being overly reductive in their theorizing... Which has nothing to do with "TCM." It isn't about whether it is "starch" or "not starch" - that is a new classification and is separate from the "damp or not" classification. Not to mention the classification of other substances in TCM that increase the ability for the spleen/pancreas (same thing in TCM) to function.

 

[mamakitty]

Drinking 4 pints of hot water every day and only eating warm, cooked meals.
Applying physical heat to the liver and gallbladder area (e.g with a hot water bottle or heat pack).
Resting after meals.
Avoiding cold food, cold water, drinks or juices.
Avoiding supplements, especially oral fat-solubles.
Taking thyroid might have also played a role.

Did you drink the hot water first thing in the morning or through out the day? Before meals?
Does adding apple cider vinegar help? Or coconut oil?

 

[redsun]

Correct. Being out of balance is anti-metabolic even more than most Peat recommendations. And in the modern world so many people have excessive dampness. This causes digestive problems. Where does nastiness grow in one's house or temple? Where it is dark & damp! I've worked in clinics before and saw the dampness being pushed out of many sickly people - and it is obvious. Think of the stereotypical unhealthy person exercising... They're all gooey and it is a nasty kind of sweat. A well cooked potato with butter and meat is anti-damp - and people who are damp will all get way warmer after eating that vs eating ice cream. I've never actually seen an exception to that in real life and I can't imagine how & why Peat's clinical experience is so different from mine.

"I rarely ever see this topic discussed in RP and I do see many people on the forum have trouble having a lifestyle tolerating mainly liquid/damp food (i.e. focusing on mainly only fruit/dairy)" -- I've been mentioning it on this forum for years but it always gets ignored.

Even in this very thread everyone is talking about "starch" and being overly reductive in their theorizing... Which has nothing to do with "TCM." It isn't about whether it is "starch" or "not starch" - that is a new classification and is separate from the "damp or not" classification. Not to mention the classification of other substances in TCM that increase the ability for the spleen/pancreas (same thing in TCM) to function.

Great post and probably in some manner thyroid supplementation or other metabolic stimulants counteract all these high water content, colder foods which allows some to tolerate it better. Perhaps you know something about this.

I definitely apply this as much as I can. Limited liquids (drink to thirst), animal proteins which are naturally denser, and starches for carbs which I can add salt to liberally when cooking. Harder cheeses to obtain calcium without the extra liquids.

 

[HealthisWealth]

yes its balance. If i take all milk how will my stool form? If i take all starch its hard to have a regular bowel movement. I can deficate everyday and i can achieve ghost wipe but depends on what i eat so i im like a robot eats the same food.

I take 3cups of sugared milk everyday. Not all uht are the same. I do well if its made from poland, next new zealand. I do not like australian milk too watery.

 

[Makrosky]

On a side note…

High milk consumption as an adult just doesn’t seem right. Milk should be an addition to your diet, like a supplement. A few teaspoons in your coffee, a glass of milk with your breakfast and that’s about it.
Makes much more sense to me to consume dairy in the forms of hard/ semi-hard salty cheese or cottage cheese.
Gorging on chocolate milk is for kids, not grown men.

Agree.

 

[Makrosky]

It just doesn't make any sense. We think because we are so smart we can cherry pick any studies or gurus advocatibg for something, rationalizing it and ignoring the other hundreds of studies going in opposite direction. In fact, for any study claiming something you can find at least another one claiming the opposite.

Now... there was a time when humans were in much more awareness of their bodily functions. For majority of humankind for majority of history. When you don't have so many modern distractions, traveling, estressants, drugs, dopaminergic stimulus from all kinds... people were much more aware of their bodies. You don't need anyone to tell you how much of food X or Y is good : you feel it. Instantly. Same for quantity.

And guess what? None of them, rich or poor, east or west (correct me if I am wrong) would choose any restrictive diet (and definitely nothing even remotely close to OJ+Milk by the gallon) unless :
- Forced by circumstances like famine, etc.
- Some purpose like developing spirituality, strength training or similar purpose.
- Temporarily as a means to fix some health problem.

In fact, it is the opposite. Humans tended to expand as much as possible their dietary variety.

And another modern atrocity is reducing food to their macro/micro nurtient content. As if food wouldn't have hundreds of other known and unknown compounds acting as an impossible to decipher symphony of effects on the body.

Not counting of course the amount of simple plain pleasure that a variet diet with different cooking styles provide compared to a very restricitve diet.

IMHO

 

[aniciete]

It just doesn't make any sense. We think because we are so smart we can cherry pick any studies or gurus advocatibg for something, rationalizing it and ignoring the other hundreds of studies going in opposite direction. In fact, for any study claiming something you can find at least another one claiming the opposite.

Now... there was a time when humans were in much more awareness of their bodily functions. For majority of humankind for majority of history. When you don't have so many modern distractions, traveling, estressants, drugs, dopaminergic stimulus from all kinds... people were much more aware of their bodies. You don't need anyone to tell you how much of food X or Y is good : you feel it. Instantly. Same for quantity.

And guess what? None of them, rich or poor, east or west (correct me if I am wrong) would choose any restrictive diet (and definitely nothing even remotely close to OJ+Milk by the gallon) unless :
- Forced by circumstances like famine, etc.
- Some purpose like developing spirituality, strength training or similar purpose.
- Temporarily as a means to fix some health problem.

In fact, it is the opposite. Humans tended to expand as much as possible their dietary variety.

And another modern atrocity is reducing food to their macro/micro nurtient content. As if food wouldn't have hundreds of other known and unknown compounds acting as an impossible to decipher symphony of effects on the body.

Not counting of course the amount of simple plain pleasure that a variet diet with different cooking styles provide compared to a very restricitve diet.

IMHO

Agreed. What do you think of the various supplement regimens people use to feel well consuming these liquid heavy diets? After spending a lot of time on this forum, every individual consuming a diet mostly of milk and fruit use copious amounts of supplements/hormones/drugs to “feel well”. Even Danny Roddy said he tried stopping thyroid supplementation in Mexico and became hypothyroid again. If consuming a “pro-metabolic” and “pro-thyroid” diet, why would he feel ill after just one day of no cynoplus? Instead of relying on drugs and supplements to feel well, shouldn’t we strive to live in an optimal environment, eat the best foods, spend time with people we love and not over complicate things? IMO the basics are the most important keys to health.

 

[ursidae]

Gorging on chocolate milk is for kids, not grown men.

I thought being child-like is considered a good thing on ray peat forum. Having the speedy metabolism of a child, being open minded, curious, playful and the high progesterone look being valued for men due to the neotenous boyish look it gives

 

[Jam]

There is a reason our grandparents ate the way they did. And it is the same reason I follow my country's "ancestral" eating habits. It took them centuries to refine and tweak their diets, and while they did not know the scientific reason behind why certain choices worked (such as always adding EVOO and parmesan to starch, having cheese after meat, or finishing off all meals with fruit and coffee), they knew what they were doing.

 

[Dr. B]

There is a reason our grandparents ate the way they did. And it is the same reason I follow my country's "ancestral" eating habits. It took them centuries to refine and tweak their diets, and while they did not know the scientific reason behind why certain choices worked (such as always adding EVOO and parmesan to starch, having cheese after meat, or finishing off all meals off with fruit and coffee), they knew what they were doing.

why finish meals with cheese, calcium?
doesnt coffee effect teeth badly, I did not know it was tradition to have coffee after every meal!

 

[Jam]

Same goes for medicine in general -- most of them lived to ripe old ages without major disease and occasionally using only few simple and cheap medicines such as aspirin, turpentine, iodine, flowers of sulfur, and herbs.

 

[Jam]

why finish meals with cheese, calcium?
doesnt coffee effect teeth badly, I did not know it was tradition to have coffee after every meal!

The cheese to keep a balanced calcium:phosphorus ratio and the coffee to block excess iron absorption, for example, and to aid digestion.

 

[Waynish]

Great post and probably in some manner thyroid supplementation or other metabolic stimulants counteract all these high water content, colder foods which allows some to tolerate it better. Perhaps you know something about this.

I definitely apply this as much as I can. Limited liquids (drink to thirst), animal proteins which are naturally denser, and starches for carbs which I can add salt to liberally when cooking. Harder cheeses to obtain calcium without the extra liquids.

I think that is an assumption. I think thyroid - being in the throat - is regulated by breaking to some significant degree. Which is why we can gain so much energy from breathing correctly - as I have taught many people and done myself. Meanwhile, I hear Peat in every interview from the beginning gasping for air. Yes you can think / talk too fast an run out; no big deal. But a lot of people get short breath from supplementing too much thyroid. The breath should become deeper in the belly, too. There is no reason with the right building blocks people should not be able to produce enough thyroid. "Goitrogens, endrocrine disruptors, PUFAs, yada yada..." - I get it, but please demonstrate it; prove it. It is still a theory - and doesn't seem to apply to people who would be rated as very vital in TCM.

In TCM you don't have to limit liquids out of fear. Once you're in balance you'll want to drink the right amount. They do recommend not drinking a lot and eating a lot at the same time. As it goes: "drink your food and eat your water (drink)..."