DHEA Has Very Similar Anabolic Activity To DHT

[haidut]

If conversion into estrogen is an issue one can combine DHEA with zinc to reduce any potential aromatization.

What is the usual zinc dosage to achieve anti-aromatase effect?

As "little" as 30mg daily have been found to be helpful. It will also lower cortisol in doses of 30mg - 50mg.

 

[FredSonoma]

If conversion into estrogen is an issue one can combine DHEA with zinc to reduce any potential aromatization.

What is the usual zinc dosage to achieve anti-aromatase effect?

As "little" as 30mg daily have been found to be helpful. It will also lower cortisol in doses of 30mg - 50mg.

Do you think this would take care of the issue with someone using DHEA and preg while having a low metabolic rate? Also, are their dangers of taking it topically? Or only orally?

 

[haidut]

If conversion into estrogen is an issue one can combine DHEA with zinc to reduce any potential aromatization.

What is the usual zinc dosage to achieve anti-aromatase effect?

As "little" as 30mg daily have been found to be helpful. It will also lower cortisol in doses of 30mg - 50mg.

Do you think this would take care of the issue with someone using DHEA and preg while having a low metabolic rate? Also, are their dangers of taking it topically? Or only orally?

I don't think DHEA would be dangerous for most people. You can try it orally or topically in a single dose of 5mg and see where that leaves you.

 

[FredSonoma]

http://www.vitacost.com/lifetime-dhea-and-pregnenolone-complex-25-mg-90-capsules

I use that one. Works for me

Good gentle doses in that.

What benefits can you report

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

By bigger what are we talking... centimeters? inches? feet?

 

[gummybear]

https://raypeatforum.com/forums/posts/94689/

http://www.vitacost.com/lifetime-dhea-and-pregnenolone-complex-25-mg-90-capsules

I use that one. Works for me

Good gentle doses in that.

What benefits can you report

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

By bigger what are we talking... centimeters? inches? feet?

Lets just say it is a turbopenis. I think it is just more bloodflow and more sexhormones.

 

[sladerunner69]

post 105846

post 80689

Wait, so DHEA promotes hair loss, since it increases DHT?

This makes me nervous since I just bought MRM DHEA 25mg and Pure pregnenolone 30mg and plan to use these to make me a few inches taller and lift my face for anti-aging. But if DHEA makes my already thinning hair worse then I have to reconsider alternatives or at least use correct dosage.

So what is a good daily/weekly dosage for pregnenolone and DHEA that's very potent for the reasons above but without hair loss? I'm 35 yrs old, male, 5'9" (175cm), 160lbs (73kg). I will also take Vitamin A, D3, E, and K2 to compliment these. Do I also need to cycle the intake or no? Week on then off? 4 days on 3 days off?

How do you pretend to grow taller at age 35?
Try topical fin and minox for the thinning hair.

Did someone seriously just recommend poison finasteride on RP forum???

Kill him. Kill him now.

 

[EDCMC]

As a follow up to the studies I posted on DHEA increasing DHT in animals and thus improving metabolic parameters, this study compared the effects of DHEA and DHT on several human tissues and found them to be quite similar. Consequently, in lower doses DHEA may indeed convert mostly into testosterone and DHT and not so much into estrogen. If conversion into estrogen is an issue one can combine DHEA with zinc to reduce any potential aromatization.

Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is an anabolic steroid like dihydrotestosterone (DHT), the most potent natural androgen, and tetrahydrogestrinone (THG). - PubMed - NCBI

"...After 7 days of daily treatment with DHEA and DHT, 629, 919 and 562 probe sets were commonly modulated in the same tissues while after 27 days of treatment, 1195, 5127 and 2883 probe sets were modulated, respectively. In analogy with the data obtained with THG, the present microarray data provide an extremely precise and unquestionable genomic signature and proof of the androgenic/anabolic activity of DHEA. Such data add to the literature showing that DHEA is transformed into androgens in the human peripheral tissues as well as in laboratory animal species, including the monkey, thus exerting potent androgenic/anabolic activity. The present microarray approach to identify anabolic compounds is applicable to all potential androgenic/anabolic compounds."

I am new to the forum format, want to try it instead of emailing. For someone who is considering taking some DHEA or thyroid, where would I find the discussions about downregulation of autonomous production. For example, if you start taking NDT, do you start down a path where you will be reliant on that product for life, or can you take it for short periods and back off the doses. I know from taking prednesone for nasal polyps, doctors always prescribe a taper dose t allow the body time to adapt to stopping the oral dose. Thanks.

 

[haidut]

I am new to the forum format, want to try it instead of emailing. For someone who is considering taking some DHEA or thyroid, where would I find the discussions about downregulation of autonomous production. For example, if you start taking NDT, do you start down a path where you will be reliant on that product for life, or can you take it for short periods and back off the doses. I know from taking prednesone for nasal polyps, doctors always prescribe a taper dose t allow the body time to adapt to stopping the oral dose. Thanks.

In physiological doses, up to 15mg daily, DHEA does not downregulate endogenous production. Neither do pregnenolone and progesterone. This is one of the indications that the body is OK with getting as much as possible from these steroids. DHEA itself also does not suppress endogenous production but some of its androgenic and estrogenic metabolites do. So, taking in small doses a few times a day can keep the HPTA and HPGA intact (unsuppressed). If you use Google to search the forum for things like "DHEA endogenous suppression" you will find the threads you need.

 

[EDCMC]

thanks. do low does of NDT also not effect endogenous production?

 

[James_001]

In physiological doses, up to 15mg daily, DHEA does not downregulate endogenous production. Neither do pregnenolone and progesterone. This is one of the indications that the body is OK with getting as much as possible from these steroids. DHEA itself also does not suppress endogenous production but some of its androgenic and estrogenic metabolites do. So, taking in small doses a few times a day can keep the HPTA and HPGA intact (unsuppressed). If you use Google to search the forum for things like "DHEA endogenous suppression" you will find the threads you need.

Haidut,

do you know if dht can cause endogenous suppression? I have read mixed things about this, and in what doses does this occur if at all?

thanks

 

[haidut]

Haidut,

do you know if dht can cause endogenous suppression? I have read mixed things about this, and in what doses does this occur if at all?

thanks

There is a human study I posted on the forum showing 12mg topical DHT daily did cause a mild suppression. As far as what dose would not cause such suppression I do not know but it's probably in the physiological dose around 1mg-2mg DHT daily.

 

[tara]

thanks. do low does of NDT also not effect endogenous production?

This is the most explicit thing I've seen about it:

From "Hypothyroidism: The Unsuspected Illness" by Broda Barnes, M.D.

"During treatment, it should not exceed the upper limit of normal---98.2---unless a cold, sore throat, or other infection is present. The thyroid gland will not decrease its normal function unless the basal temperature is maintained for some time above the upper limit of normal."

 

[DaveFoster]

What if one took 50-100 mg of DHEA along with a very potent aromatase inhibitor (letrozole)?

Would this create supraphysiological concentrations of DHT without the estrogen effect?

How high could we go with this?

 

[haidut]

What if one took 50-100 mg of DHEA along with a very potent aromatase inhibitor (letrozole)?

Would this create supraphysiological concentrations of DHT without the estrogen effect?

How high could we go with this?

Yes, it would. There is a human study that did that. See the study below and attached screenshot. Atamestane is a close relative of exemestane.
Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone and atamestane supplementation on frailty in elderly men. - PubMed - NCBI

"...At baseline hormone levels were similar for the four intervention groups (Table 1). Mean endogenous DHEA and DHEAS increased in the DHEA and DHEA/atamestane group (Table 2). Total testosterone levels increased in all three treatment groups (Table 2). IGF-I levels increased in the DHEA/atamestane group [beta 9.3, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.3, 17.3] but not in the other intervention groups. No changes were observed for IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-3 in all treatment groups (Table 2)."

Now, the study only checked T levels but an 11-fold increase in testosterone in the DHEA-atamestane group is guaranteed to convert heavily into DHT given that it did not convert into estrogen. Raising T levels by taking AI has been shown in other studies to raise DHT as well. In addition, DHEA is itself a 5-AR enhancer and it will drive conversion of T into DHT even higher compared to just taking an AI.
While I do think this is a valid approach to raising T/DHT levels, you can probably achieve pretty similar results much more safely using lower doses DHEA combined with aspirin.

 

[DaveFoster]

Yes, it would. There is a human study that did that. See the study below and attached screenshot. Atamestane is a close relative of exemestane.
Effects of dehydroepiandrosterone and atamestane supplementation on frailty in elderly men. - PubMed - NCBI

"...At baseline hormone levels were similar for the four intervention groups (Table 1). Mean endogenous DHEA and DHEAS increased in the DHEA and DHEA/atamestane group (Table 2). Total testosterone levels increased in all three treatment groups (Table 2). IGF-I levels increased in the DHEA/atamestane group [beta 9.3, 95% confidence interval (CI) 1.3, 17.3] but not in the other intervention groups. No changes were observed for IGFBP-1 and IGFBP-3 in all treatment groups (Table 2)."

Now, the study only checked T levels but an 11-fold increase in testosterone in the DHEA-atamestane group is guaranteed to convert heavily into DHT given that it did not convert into estrogen. Raising T levels by taking AI has been shown in other studies to raise DHT as well. In addition, DHEA is itself a 5-AR enhancer and it will drive conversion of T into DHT even higher compared to just taking an AI.
While I do think this is a valid approach to raising T/DHT levels, you can probably achieve pretty similar results much more safely using lower doses DHEA combined with aspirin.

Wow. That's an incredible jump. Estradiol still increased in the DHEA + atamestane group.

Would suicide inhibitors work in the same way, such as letrozole? I have some on hand. It's not selective, but it should be even more effective.

What DHEA dosage do you think would work for this?

I don't want to cause premature balding or anything destructive.

200 mg seems to be a ceiling dose for raising testosterone.
Source: Increasing Testosterone | Examine.com

 

[haidut]

Wow. That's an incredible jump. Estradiol still increased in the DHEA + atamestane group.

Would suicide inhibitors work in the same way, such as letrozole? I have some on hand. It's not selective, but it should be even more effective.

What DHEA dosage do you think would work for this?

I don't want to cause premature balding or anything destructive.

200 mg seems to be a ceiling dose for raising testosterone.
Source: Increasing Testosterone | Examine.com

I think any AI would work. The estradiol increase in the DHEA/atamestane group was not statistically significant, otherwise it would have been called out in the results.
Using 3 daily doses of 25mg each would probably work better for raising T/DHT than the single 50mg dose used in the study.

 

[superhuman]

Lets just say it is a turbopenis. I think it is just more bloodflow and more sexhormones.

How much DHEA do you take daily to get the benefits you talked about from DHEA?

 

[DaveFoster]

Did someone seriously just recommend poison finasteride on RP forum???

Kill him. Kill him now.

Can't believe I missed this. Hilarious.

On another note, letrozole makes your chin sharp as a blade. It's scary.

I think any AI would work. The estradiol increase in the DHEA/atamestane group was not statistically significant, otherwise it would have been called out in the results.
Using 3 daily doses of 25mg each would probably work better for raising T/DHT than the single 50mg dose used in the study.

I'm getting ready to start the experiment.

Do you think progesterone would work as an effective AI in this case as well? Possibly a less invasive alternative to exemestane.

 

[bipolarguy]

This thread is informationally dense, lol. Quite interesting and thought provoking. I'm 65, with treatment resistant ultra rapid cycling/mixed state bipolar, poor libido/erectile dysfunction and a history of sub clinical hypothyroidism. Been on and off prescribed testosterone shots and now have been on them(100mg weekly of test enanthate/50mg E3D) for 10 months. Also take .25mg of anastrazole, weekly. With or without supplementing testosterone, keeping E2 between 20 and 30pg seems to be the preferred range by doctors who prescribe TRT. But I haven't seen a corresponding rise in DHT. It's always in the low to mid 30s and I think that could be part of the reason for unresolved libido/erectile issues. I also just started on NDT, ordered from Pimpom. Used a knife to cut the pill into 10 tiny pieces and will take one per day. My recent thyroid panel showed a TSH of 1.41, free T4 of 1, free T3 of 3.1 and antibodies below range. However, I've been depressed for months, have digestive and bowel issues and feel chilly, even though I'm currently in Florida. Adding in the sexual function issues, I concluded that thyroid supplementation might improve all the aforementioned issues. It certainly did that 22 years ago when I was put on Cytomel. But after 12 years on T3, I no longer responded to it. And I've been going downhill for the past seven years, both emotionally, psychiatrically and physically.

I've read many of RP's articles but haven't had much success with his dietary recommendations. HPA dysregulation or, even damage, seems to be a given in bipolar illness and I am of the opinion that a malfunctioning or damaged HPA is at the heart of the many physical problems I have and am experiencing.

 

[haidut]

Can't believe I missed this. Hilarious.

On another note, letrozole makes your chin sharp as a blade. It's scary.


I'm getting ready to start the experiment.

Do you think progesterone would work as an effective AI in this case as well? Possibly a less invasive alternative to exemestane.

Yes, I think progesterone, vitamin E, vitamin K, and even pregnenolone would work well as they have all been shown to inhibit aromatase. Ray now recommends taking DHEA with vitamin E, presumably due to the anti-estrogenic effects of vitamin E lowering risk of estrogenicity of DHEA.