DHEA Is Preferentially Converted Into DHT In Humans

[haidut]

I posted several studies showing both that DHEA itself is androgenic and very similar to DHT in terms of affecting "gene" expressions, as well as preferentially converted into DHT when used as supplement. Unfortunately, most of the studies were in animals and some of them were in vitro. So, what is lacking is a good human study studying the metabolism of DHEA into various metabolites. While several human studies have been performed, the ones I have been able to review were all done with women and thus do not reveal much since it is known that DHEA is androgenic in women.
It looks like a male human study has actually been done and I am posting it here together with the statements from the lead scientists on the study. Basically, as discovered by multiple other human studies, in men DHEA will NOT elevate plasma androgens. However, the metabolites it produces point very strongly to its preferential metabolism into DHT and long term storage as androstenediole (ADG). The ADG is then metabolized back into DHT as needed. We'd better stock up on DHEA before the FDA realizes what potent hormone they have on the market and bans it!
I think one of the factors that still keep DHEA legal is its abuse by most users. In the doses used by most "knowledgeable" people (i.e. 25mg+ daily) DHEA ends up as estrogen and this masks its huge anabolic potential when used properly in the right doses. So, FDA thinks DHEA has no anabolic activity and so far is ignoring it. But with all the studies popping up, this may change soon.

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015- ... 7/abstract
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Res ... high-doses

"..."When the body gets an excess of DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG", Sokol explains. Testosterone may quickly break down into DHT, which quickly breaks down into the more stable hormone ADG. Elevated levels of that hormone then remain circulating in the blood."

"...Researchers are unsure about potential effects of elevated DHEA and DHEA sulfate in the blood. "It is possible that DHEA itself enhances muscle development, but that's not been documented," Sokol said. DHEA is normally produced by the adrenal gland."

 

[Vinero]

Most people take huge doses of DHEA (50 mg and up) and most of those people compain of getting hair loss, acne, and oily skin. So they tend to quit the DHEA thinking it is too powerful of a masculinizing agent. But then again, in those huge doses that are seen as "normal doses" estrogen is likely the cause of those side effects.

 

[hmac]

I posted several studies showing both that DHEA itself is androgenic and very similar to DHT in terms of affecting "gene" expressions, as well as preferentially converted into DHT when used as supplement. Unfortunately, most of the studies were in animals and some of them were in vitro. So, what is lacking is a good human study studying the metabolism of DHEA into various metabolites. While several human studies have been performed, the ones I have been able to review were all done with women and thus do not reveal much since it is known that DHEA is androgenic in women.
It looks like a male human study has actually been done and I am posting it here together with the statements from the lead scientists on the study. Basically, as discovered by multiple other human studies, in men DHEA will NOT elevate plasma androgens. However, the metabolites it produces point very strongly to its preferential metabolism into DHT and long term storage as androstenediole (ADG). The ADG is then metabolized back into DHT as needed. We'd better stock up on DHEA before the FDA realizes what potent hormone they have on the market and bans it!
I think one of the factors that still keep DHEA legal is its abuse by most users. In the doses used by most "knowledgeable" people (i.e. 25mg+ daily) DHEA ends up as estrogen and this masks its huge anabolic potential when used properly in the right doses. So, FDA thinks DHEA has no anabolic activity and so far is ignoring it. But with all the studies popping up, this may change soon.

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015- ... 7/abstract
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Res ... high-doses

"..."When the body gets an excess of DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG", Sokol explains. Testosterone may quickly break down into DHT, which quickly breaks down into the more stable hormone ADG. Elevated levels of that hormone then remain circulating in the blood."

"...Researchers are unsure about potential effects of elevated DHEA and DHEA sulfate in the blood. "It is possible that DHEA itself enhances muscle development, but that's not been documented," Sokol said. DHEA is normally produced by the adrenal gland."

Thank you very much for this information. In your opinion then, does this dispel concern that DHEA may be converted into estrogen? I have tried taking DHEA in 5mg doses and experienced depression and sleep disturbance as a result (i'm a 25yr male) which I attributed to it's conversion to Estradiol via aromatase. However, when I dissolved it in some oil and applied it to the skin in doses of around 1mg it seemed to have some effects which suggested antagonism of estrogen (reduction of mild gynocomastia and slightly enlarged muscles), while it still seemed to affect my mood adversely.
I find this experience hard to reconcile with the information in the study which seems to suggest that there isn't much likelihood of DHEA turning into estrogen, even at doses of 200mg. It does call the subjects 'healthy young men' so perhaps i am not one, while I don't see myself as 'unhealthy'!

 

[haidut]

I posted several studies showing both that DHEA itself is androgenic and very similar to DHT in terms of affecting "gene" expressions, as well as preferentially converted into DHT when used as supplement. Unfortunately, most of the studies were in animals and some of them were in vitro. So, what is lacking is a good human study studying the metabolism of DHEA into various metabolites. While several human studies have been performed, the ones I have been able to review were all done with women and thus do not reveal much since it is known that DHEA is androgenic in women.
It looks like a male human study has actually been done and I am posting it here together with the statements from the lead scientists on the study. Basically, as discovered by multiple other human studies, in men DHEA will NOT elevate plasma androgens. However, the metabolites it produces point very strongly to its preferential metabolism into DHT and long term storage as androstenediole (ADG). The ADG is then metabolized back into DHT as needed. We'd better stock up on DHEA before the FDA realizes what potent hormone they have on the market and bans it!
I think one of the factors that still keep DHEA legal is its abuse by most users. In the doses used by most "knowledgeable" people (i.e. 25mg+ daily) DHEA ends up as estrogen and this masks its huge anabolic potential when used properly in the right doses. So, FDA thinks DHEA has no anabolic activity and so far is ignoring it. But with all the studies popping up, this may change soon.

http://www.fertstert.org/article/S0015- ... 7/abstract
http://www.nutraingredients-usa.com/Res ... high-doses

"..."When the body gets an excess of DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG", Sokol explains. Testosterone may quickly break down into DHT, which quickly breaks down into the more stable hormone ADG. Elevated levels of that hormone then remain circulating in the blood."

"...Researchers are unsure about potential effects of elevated DHEA and DHEA sulfate in the blood. "It is possible that DHEA itself enhances muscle development, but that's not been documented," Sokol said. DHEA is normally produced by the adrenal gland."

Thank you very much for this information. In your opinion then, does this dispel concern that DHEA may be converted into estrogen? I have tried taking DHEA in 5mg doses and experienced depression and sleep disturbance as a result (i'm a 25yr male) which I attributed to it's conversion to Estradiol via aromatase. However, when I dissolved it in some oil and applied it to the skin in doses of around 1mg it seemed to have some effects which suggested antagonism of estrogen (reduction of mild gynocomastia and slightly enlarged muscles), while it still seemed to affect my mood adversely.
I find this experience hard to reconcile with the information in the study which seems to suggest that there isn't much likelihood of DHEA turning into estrogen, even at doses of 200mg. It does call the subjects 'healthy young men' so perhaps i am not one, while I don't see myself as 'unhealthy'!

DHEA can convert into estrogen even in low doses if one is under stress. If transdermal works for you then go with that route. Another option would be to take some natural anti-estrogens like aspirin, thyroid, vitamin E, etc. There is a study showing transdermal application of DHEA favors the andorgenic pathway even more than oral, resulting in ADG levels 40% higher compared to the same dose of DHEA taken orally.

 

[haidut]

I forgot to mention that DHEA increases 5-AR activity. This probably one of the main reasons DHEA ends up preferentially as DHT and DHT-metabolites such as ADG. In addition, this increases the levels of other 5-AR derived steroids like allopregnanolone. I think this elevated allopregnanolone combined with the increased DHT levels explains the anti-depressant effects of DHEA, especially when given in small doses frequently throughout the day.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=208294

 

[hmac]

I forgot to mention that DHEA increases 5-AR activity. This probably one of the main reasons DHEA ends up preferentially as DHT and DHT-metabolites such as ADG. In addition, this increases the levels of other 5-AR derived steroids like allopregnanolone. I think this elevated allopregnanolone combined with the increased DHT levels explains the anti-depressant effects of DHEA, especially when given in small doses frequently throughout the day.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=208294

That's very interesting, thanks. One more brief question: Would you expect the increase in 5-AR to happen regardless of the context in which DHEA is taken or would it, again, be dependent on weather the person is under stress or not?
Thanks

 

[haidut]

I forgot to mention that DHEA increases 5-AR activity. This probably one of the main reasons DHEA ends up preferentially as DHT and DHT-metabolites such as ADG. In addition, this increases the levels of other 5-AR derived steroids like allopregnanolone. I think this elevated allopregnanolone combined with the increased DHT levels explains the anti-depressant effects of DHEA, especially when given in small doses frequently throughout the day.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=208294

That's very interesting, thanks. One more brief question: Would you expect the increase in 5-AR to happen regardless of the context in which DHEA is taken or would it, again, be dependent on weather the person is under stress or not?
Thanks

The increase in 5-AR happens regardless of stress since it it is driven by the presence of DHEA itself in the tissues. So, even if DHEA ends up raising estrogen some portion of it will convert to DHT no matter how high the stress is. This is probably why even high doses of DHEA (200mg+) do not raise estrogen nearly as much as more estrogenic pro-steroids like androstenedione (commonly abused by the baseball league). Note that androstenedione is NOT the same as the hormone androstenediol mentioned in the study. Androstenedione has mostly estrogenic activity while the various androstenediol metabolites are androgenic. Interestingly, one of them (5-androstenediol) also protects from radiation poisoning and damage. Here is some additional info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohormon ... .281-AD.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Androstenediol

So, if someone has to get some type of radiation imaging it looks like one or more of the following would be very helpful for limiting the damage: methylene blue, caffeine, niacinamide, aspirin, pregnenolone, DHEA.
But try and tell your doctor you can take stuff to limit radiation damage and see what look you'll get

 

[hmac]

I forgot to mention that DHEA increases 5-AR activity. This probably one of the main reasons DHEA ends up preferentially as DHT and DHT-metabolites such as ADG. In addition, this increases the levels of other 5-AR derived steroids like allopregnanolone. I think this elevated allopregnanolone combined with the increased DHT levels explains the anti-depressant effects of DHEA, especially when given in small doses frequently throughout the day.
http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article ... eid=208294

That's very interesting, thanks. One more brief question: Would you expect the increase in 5-AR to happen regardless of the context in which DHEA is taken or would it, again, be dependent on weather the person is under stress or not?
Thanks

The increase in 5-AR happens regardless of stress since it it is driven by the presence of DHEA itself in the tissues. So, even if DHEA ends up raising estrogen some portion of it will convert to DHT no matter how high the stress is. This is probably why even high doses of DHEA (200mg+) do not raise estrogen nearly as much as more estrogenic pro-steroids like androstenedione (commonly abused by the baseball league). Note that androstenedione is NOT the same as the hormone androstenediol mentioned in the study. Androstenedione has mostly estrogenic activity while the various androstenediol metabolites are androgenic. Interestingly, one of them (5-androstenediol) also protects from radiation poisoning and damage. Here is some additional info:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prohormon ... .281-AD.29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-Androstenediol

So, if someone has to get some type of radiation imaging it looks like one of more of the following would be very helpful in limiting the damage: methylene blue, caffeine, niacinamide, aspirin, pregnenolone, DHEA.

Totally fascinating stuff. Thanks again

 

[piotr_zarach]

"DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG" It is true in my case. Just on 5-10 mg daily dhea for 2 months now. Im over scale :) 33.84 nmol/l norm is 8.64-29

 

[michael94]

Do you know the effects on the HPTA?

I would assume it's very suppressive at a high uneducated dose 25mg+, due to the large increase in estrogen.

At more reasonable doses I wonder what effect it has on LH, did you have that checked piotr?

 

[michael94]

post 92128
Thank you very much for this information. In your opinion then, does this dispel concern that DHEA may be converted into estrogen? I have tried taking DHEA in 5mg doses and experienced depression and sleep disturbance as a result (i'm a 25yr male) which I attributed to it's conversion to Estradiol via aromatase. However, when I dissolved it in some oil and applied it to the skin in doses of around 1mg it seemed to have some effects which suggested antagonism of estrogen (reduction of mild gynocomastia and slightly enlarged muscles), while it still seemed to affect my mood adversely.
I find this experience hard to reconcile with the information in the study which seems to suggest that there isn't much likelihood of DHEA turning into estrogen, even at doses of 200mg. It does call the subjects 'healthy young men' so perhaps i am not one, while I don't see myself as 'unhealthy'!

If it's converting into Testosterone at an appreciable amount then it is definitely raising estrogen too, if it's mostly being turned into DHT it won't.

 

[piotr_zarach]

If it's converting into Testosterone at an appreciable amount then it is definitely raising estrogen too, if it's mostly being turned into DHT it won't.

Thats why i test prolactin too. As you can see prolo is in mid ranges 164,7 norm: 86-324. I think it could be lower if i use b6 near the week of labs and sleep normal that night

 

[piotr_zarach]

So Georgi is right again

 

[nullredvector]

So are there any indications for the use of DHT over DHEA?

Lifelong obesity? Forced labor?

 

[nullredvector]

Maybe tramatic brain injury?

 

[DaveFoster]

All day I was having some horrid depression. I took too much progesterone and had headaches, low BP, anhedonia, and borderline suicidal from the total lack of motivation. I took three doses of pregnenolone and DHEA (2 drops Pansterone x3), and my depression lifted, and I feel pretty good. This is with plenty of caffeine.

 

[Wagner83]

200 mg a day in a single oral dose raised ADG much more than the 50 mg once daily. What I find odd is that both of the doses used (50 mg and 200 mg) are very high and yet ADG was increased by a lot with the higher dose. 50mg had no significant effects from what I see (10 % more ADG after 6 months).
The supplementation could raise etiocholanolone (see the study on androsterone vs etiocholanolone in the androsterone thread) , and more importantly the authors wrote:

Our data indicate that long-term daily oral ingestion of DHEA results in a significant sustained dose response increase in baseline levels of the metabolites DHEAS and ADG. There was, however, little if any increase in the baseline levels of other DHEA metabolites. In some instances, as with DHEA at the higher dosage, there was in fact an attenuation of baseline levels from 3 months to 6 months, which suggests an adaptation to the supplementation. Interestingly, these higher levels of DHEAS and ADG did not alter the pharmacokinetic patterns of any of the metabolic products of DHEA. This is consistent with an increased clearance of unconjugated steroid hormones after DHEA supplementation. The body may have a protective mechanism by which inactivation of biologically active steroid hormones is increased through the action of sulfuryl or glucuronyl transferases when circulating levels of unconjugated steroids become too high.

As Peat said many times I more and more think that getting off supplements is actually a better choice in most cases (unless there's a very specific problem).

 

[Wagner83]

By the way despite raising ADG very significantly in a group for 6 months (100% + in the 200mg) and noticing NO prostate enlargement or pathology the guys still did not even consider the possibility it's not that harmful .

 

[2thecloudsabove]

"..."When the body gets an excess of DHEA, it appears to preferentially turn the DHEA into testosterone, then DHT and then ADG", Sokol explains. Testosterone may quickly break down into DHT, which quickly breaks down into the more stable hormone ADG. Elevated levels of that hormone then remain circulating in the blood."

What source did you get the dhea straightaway converting to dht fact from? And which enzyme specifically does this?

 

[haidut]

What source did you get the dhea straightaway converting to dht fact from? And which enzyme specifically does this?

This is not me saying it. It is a quote from the article, and that person called Sokol said it.
That put aside, DHEA can circumvent T on its path to DHT. It is called the backdoor pathway. DHEA converts to androstenedione, which then gets 5a-reduced to produce 5a-androstanedione, which then gets converted to DHT pretty easily wherever it is needed.