Why DHEA Must Be Taken In Small Doses Only

haidut

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Once again, I am amazed at how well Ray's recommendations are backed by science. He has said that taking DHEA is fine and can restore proper youthful hormone balance. However, he cautioned that DHEA should only be taken in doses of no more than 10mg at once and preferably no more than 15mg daily.
Virtually all studies with DHEA used doses 50mg+ daily and the results for men were quite disappointing in terms of hormonal profile as in men DHEA raises estrogen quite a bit while in women it raised mostly DHT. Basically, the opposite effect of what most clinicians try to achieve. These results have convinced the scientific community that DHEA is a non-starter as an HRT for older people.
However, I have posted studies showing DHEA in doses of <15mg daily is quite androgenic and virtually indistinguishable from DHT in terms of anabolic effects.
So, what is the catch? This studies shows the that the estrogenic effects of DHEA start manifesting only at concentrations of 500nM or higher. A single dose of 15mg of DHEA results in concentrations slightly higher than 500nM, so Ray's recommendations at 10mg being the cutoff for non-estrogenic effects seem spot on.
So, DHEA does seem to have a lot of potential if you know how to use it and follow Ray's advice that "more is not better" when it comes to hormone supplementation. Also, doses of 5mg taken 2-3 times a day happen to mimic very closely the physiological levels and hormone metabolism of 20-year old men and women. So, once again, Ray's recommendations make perfect sense even in that context.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4364836/

"...Finally, we examined whether the precursor hormone DHEA is taken up into the myotubes in culture and further processed to T or E2. After 5 days of differentiation, myotubes were exposed to 100 nm DHEA, 500 nm DHEA or mock for 6, 24 and 72 h. Myotubes readily took up DHEA into the cells as shown by the increase in the cellular concentration of DHEA (Fig.​(Fig.5A).5A). There were significant group differences at all time points (ANOVA P = 0.001, 0.003 and 0.002, respectively). Cellular DHEA concentration was significantly upregulated already at 6 h in 500 nm DHEA-exposed myotubes when compared to mock (P = 0.002) and continued to be elevated at 24 h (P = 0.004) and at 72 h (P = 0.004), while 100 nm DHEA was not sufficient to increase cellular concentration of DHEA at any time point. Interestingly, the cellular concentrations of T and E2 also increased in response to the DHEA treatment, indicating that their synthesis from DHEA was induced. However, the differences in E2 concentration did not reach statistical significance (Fig.​(Fig.5B).5B). Cellular T concentration was significantly different at 6- and 24-h time points, but not at 72 h (ANOVA P = 0.007, 0.027 and 0.144, respectively; Fig.​Fig.5C).5C). In addition, the gene expression of aromatase was statistically significantly upregulated after 72-h exposure to 500 nm DHEA (P = 0.13), while no significant differences in the gene expression of ESR1,ESR2,GPER, or AR were observed (Fig​(Fig5D5D–H)."
 

narouz

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Thank you, haidut.
I thought you were supposed to be on vacation!?
Just the elves?
 
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Would low dose dhea be safe or useful for a 24 year old male carrying an extra 80 lbs with mild gyno. Or should it only be taken based on bloodwork?
 

Vinero

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Whats up with the 2-3 times a day dosing? I thought DHEA had a pretty long half life and builds op in your system even if you only take it once a day.
 
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haidut

haidut

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narouz said:
Thank you, haidut.
I thought you were supposed to be on vacation!?
Just the elves?

Yes, I am on vacation but that does not mean I won't read the forum:): It's just that we are not near the lab for 2 weeks and can't make and chip supplements during that time.
 
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haidut

haidut

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InterrogaOmnia said:
Would low dose dhea be safe or useful for a 24 year old male carrying an extra 80 lbs with mild gyno. Or should it only be taken based on bloodwork?

I think at your age the physiological dose would be just a few milligramns a day, unless you have blood work showing you have low hormone levels. So, you can start with one dose of 5mg daily and see where that takes you.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Vinero said:
Whats up with the 2-3 times a day dosing? I thought DHEA had a pretty long half life and builds op in your system even if you only take it once a day.

Like I mentioned in the post above, taking even a single dose of 10mg during the day is probably still estrogenic. Also, even if not estrogenic it is still unphysiologically high. I think Ray's recommendations are geared so that the steroidal pathways do not get saturated with supplementation since nobody knows what happens when you saturate the pathways. So, say you want to take 10mg DHEA daily. Then you still have to split it in 2 doses of about 5mg each to be on the same side and not saturate pathways. If less than 10mg works for you then I guess taking it in a single dose would work. Ray said that even 10mg at once MAY be safe if you are relatively healthy and not under stress. But those are 2 big IFs that do not apply for most people over 30.
 

Peaterpeater

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I can't seem to find sublingual dhea in small doses without harmful excipients. The one I currently use is from Douglas labs, it's a micronized sublingual 5mg scored tablet but it contains silica. I cut it in half and take 2.5mg 3x per day. Does anyone know of any other sublingual in low doses without any harmful excipients? Haidut, can you create one please? I want a sublingual because I'm really afraid of creating more problems for my liver. The micronized sublingual is supposed to bypass the liver.
 
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haidut

haidut

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lexis said:
Vitamin k2 can mitigate the estrogenic effect,right?

All of the fat soluble vitamins could mitigate the estrogenic effects. Aspirin, zinc, nettle root, and progesterone can also help. But I think the point it not to get to the level of estrogenism since we don't know if controlling the estrogen eliminates all issues. Something generating estrogenic response suggests other stress pathways are activated too.
 

Wilfrid

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Peaterpeater said:
I can't seem to find sublingual dhea in small doses without harmful excipients. The one I currently use is from Douglas labs, it's a micronized sublingual 5mg scored tablet but it contains silica. I cut it in half and take 2.5mg 3x per day. Does anyone know of any other sublingual in low doses without any harmful excipients? Haidut, can you create one please? I want a sublingual because I'm really afraid of creating more problems for my liver. The micronized sublingual is supposed to bypass the liver.

BioMatrix DHEA Drops are made with safe ingredients and the dose per drop is small.
Biotics Research have also 2 DHEA products ( dosage of 2mg or 5mg ) which are safe but not sublingual.
 

Greg says

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I started dosing 5mg DHEA and have felt really positive results. I must have been low testosterone due to elevated stress hormones. I feel more powerful and assertive. I feel its replaced something that wasn't there. Something that was needed for sure.

The best thing about RP, and from what I sense the RP community, is that you become an expert in yourself. Listening to the body is one thing, but understanding it is a fine art. Humanity will never sort itself out until people sort themselves out (fat chance). Having to deal with ignorant, high serotonin, low blood sugar people (that run the show) is f**king awful. Sadly one of the only places I sense any 'normality', is on this forum. Step outside onto the street and people are clueless, just moronic, partly due to running on the wrong fuel and watching TV and never questioning it.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Greg says said:
I started dosing 5mg DHEA and have felt really positive results. I must have been low testosterone due to elevated stress hormones. I feel more powerful and assertive. I feel its replaced something that wasn't there. Something that was needed for sure.

The best thing about RP, and from what I sense the RP community, is that you become an expert in yourself. Listening to the body is one thing, but understanding it is a fine art. Humanity will never sort itself out until people sort themselves out (fat chance). Having to deal with ignorant, high serotonin, low blood sugar people (that run the show) is f**king awful. Sadly one of the only places I sense any 'normality', is on this forum. Step outside onto the street and people are clueless, just moronic, partly due to running on the wrong fuel and watching TV and never questioning it.

Awesome! If you are willing to experiment try adding 30mg - 60mg zinc daily to the DHEA regimen for added effect. Take zinc on empty stomach as absorption is inhibited by food.
 

Greg says

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haidut said:

Awesome! If you are willing to experiment try adding 30mg - 60mg zinc daily to the DHEA regimen for added effect. Take zinc on empty stomach as absorption is inhibited by food.

Good tip, will try that... I have tried DHEA many times as Ive always resonated towards it. Each time I felt bad but it was because I was taking too bigger dose 25mg+ (more is better). It wasn't until i read this post that I remembered I had some 5mg from a couple years ago. Actually 2013. I take it with a little slice of butter.
 

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I wouldn't take zinc on an empty stomach. Many people report stomach irritation and or pain when taken without a meal. In fact, zinc absorption is enhanced in the presence of protein. "The amount of protein in a meal has a positive effect on zinc absorption, but individual proteins may act differently; e.g., casein has a modest inhibitory effect of zinc absorption compared with other protein sources."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10801947
 
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haidut

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Vinero said:
I wouldn't take zinc on an empty stomach. Many people report stomach irritation and or pain when taken without a meal. In fact, zinc absorption is enhanced in the presence of protein. "The amount of protein in a meal has a positive effect on zinc absorption, but individual proteins may act differently; e.g., casein has a modest inhibitory effect of zinc absorption compared with other protein sources."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10801947

Yes, I should have cautioned against that. However, metals are usually best absorbed on an empty stomach so if you can handle the stomach issues you can do away with a single daily dose of 30mg zinc rather than having to take several. Magnesium, iron, copper etc all have the same issues and caveats - empty stomach is best for absorption but worst for stomach upset.
 

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haidut said:
Vinero said:
I wouldn't take zinc on an empty stomach. Many people report stomach irritation and or pain when taken without a meal. In fact, zinc absorption is enhanced in the presence of protein. "The amount of protein in a meal has a positive effect on zinc absorption, but individual proteins may act differently; e.g., casein has a modest inhibitory effect of zinc absorption compared with other protein sources."

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10801947

Yes, I should have cautioned against that. However, metals are usually best absorbed on an empty stomach so if you can handle the stomach issues you can do away with a single daily dose of 30mg zinc rather than having to take several. Magnesium, iron, copper etc all have the same issues and caveats - empty stomach is best for absorption but worst for stomach upset.

The form of the metal seems to have an impact on stomach issues. Iron bisglycinate is reported to be well tolerated for example, whereas other iron supplements are infamous for the digestive issues they cause.
 

Vinero

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Would coffee inhibit the absorption of metals? Obviously iron is mentioned by ray, but what about other metals like magnesium and zinc? I like to take magnesium with my coffee, I like the idea that magnesium is a NMDA antagonist which might protect against the caffeine jitters (adrenaline).
 

hmac

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Yesterday morning I took 5mg DHEA (Pure Encapsulations). Initially I felt it contributed to a generally positive and especially expansive mental state (it could have been Lysine though). A few hours into my working day, however, I noticed that this state of expansiveness and inquiry had been replaced by one of irritability. By the time I got home I felt practically emotionless and physically heavy in the head. I struggled to get to sleep that night. Today I woke up feeling fairly normal but realised that (at a similar time in the afternoon as yesterday) I, again, felt dull, flat and emotionless. There is a feeling of being almost withdrawn and experiencing things indirectly as if they were being filtered through a barrier of cotton which is lining my skull! Can anyone offer any suggestions on what might have happened here and how this could be resolved? I notice on another thread a comment about 'depersonalision being a nightmare to escape' when taking DHEA which did make me a little anxious... ;-)

Edit- apologies, this isn't the appropriate place for this question - will move to another section of the forum
 

Iron Man

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This is very interesting! I just hit 40 and am into natural bodybuilding. My sister inlaw is a Doctor and she freaked out when she heard I was taking DHEA. I was only taking about 10mg a day. After she freaked out, I stopped, but am now wondering if I should go against her advice?

Also... I remember reading a while back about a Testosterone level experiment that Haidut did to naturally increase Testosterone levels. Does anyone have this link? My last blood results showed that I was WAY under the recommended levels and I would rather not go on TRT.

Thanks.
 

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