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Remarkable Synergistic Effect Of Androsterone With DHEA

haidut

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The steroids androsterone (A) and DHEA are considered not very strong androgens in terms of direct activity on androgenic receptors. DHEA is often cited as having 1/10 of the androgenic effects of testosterone (T) and androsterone as having 1/7 of the androgenic effects. While that has been conclusively shown for DHEA, the data on androsterone appears to be actually incorrect. Older studies done in the first half of the 20th century showed that androsterone is capable of completely restoring male sexual activity and phenotype in castrated male animals, if adminstered in a high enough dose. That dose was in the HED of 0.25mg/kg - 0.75mg/kg range and in one study androsterone was found to be equally potent compared to T.

Androsterone - Androgenic Neurosteroid Required For Male Sexual Behavior
Quantitative studies on the response of the capon's comb to androsterone. - PubMed - NCBI
Growth and maintenance of the fowl's comb by administration of androsterone. - PubMed - NCBI
DNA-dependent synthesis of RNA is not implicated in growth response of chick comb to androgens. - PubMed - NCBI
History, chemistry and pharmacodynamics of anabolic-androgenic steroids. - PubMed - NCBI
Inhibition by an anti-androgen of stimulation provided by four androgenic compounds. - PubMed - NCBI
"...Employing inunction of the chick comb, studies of the stimulation afforded by 3 different androgens showed that testosterone acetate and androsterone acetate were equipotent and 3–4 times as active as dehydroepiandrosterone acetate."

A number of more recent studies found that the most effective treatment in terms of anabolism and androgenicity is a combination of an aromatizable and non-aromatizable androgen such as T + DHT, or DHEA + DHT. Again, an older study looked at the proper ratio of such combinations to achieve optimal effects and used androsterone and DHEA for the experiment. The study found that when androsterone and DHEA combined in a ratio of 25% to 75% produced a maximum effect. This combination was more potent than any other combination tried, as well as either one of the steroids combined. For the record, DHEA tried on its own was ineffective. What is even more remarkable is that at the 50% / 50% ratio, there was no plateau of effect observed even at very high doses. So, the anabolic and androgenic effects of the combination was technically unlimited. For some inexplicable reason though, the authors decided that the effect of the 50%/50% mix was an anomaly and chose the next most effective ratio (25% A + 75% DHEA) as the optimal one. While androsterone is a very potent aromatase inhibitor and should prevent estrogenic effects from DHEA, I don't think that overdoing this combination is wise. Both androsterone and DHEA are thermogenic and thyroid-mimetic. So, on physiological doses a person should be able to get all the anabolic and androgenic benefits they need, as well as the thyroid mimetic / surrogate effects. Doing excessively high doses may lead to fever and other unknown / undesired effects. So, if this combination is tried I think a dose of 2mg androsterone + 5mg DHEA (i.e. 25% / 75% ratio) up to 5mg androsterone + 5mg DHEA (i.e. 50% / 50% ratio), taken 1-2 times daily would be enough to reap all the benefits this study and others like it found.

The influence of mixtures of androsterone and dehydroisoandrosterone on biological response. - PubMed - NCBI

"...It is pertinent and at the same time appears paradoxical that as the less active fraction (dehydroisoandrosterone) is increased in amount the virilizing influence is enhanced. The question arose as to what effect this disproportion of the two hormones in solution will have on reactive tissue in the animal organism. In order to determine this the comb of the baby chick was selected as the target organ on which to observe the biological response of varying proportions of the two active androgens."

"...The order of response was determined by the least amount of androsterone in the mixture of the daily dose that reached the given ratio (Table 1). From this chart, it may be seen that the biologically most active mixture of these androgens is 25% androsterone +75% dehydroisoandrosterone and that the least active is that of 95% androsterone +5% dehydroisaondrosterone. The other mixtures fall in progression so that as the dehyroisoandrosterone is increased, at the expense of the androsterone, the mixtures become increasingly more potent."

"...It was observed in all of our work, as evidenced by the curves, that the responsiveness of the chicks' comb to androgenic stimulation reaches a maximum point at a dose between 30 and 40 gamma, after which it declines. This was not the case when a mixture of equal parts (50% + 50%) of the two androgens were employed in an oily solution (Figure 8). At the 40 gamma dose, the chick comb weight response was still rising. This mixture was repeated on another "run" of chicks and was found to be correct...The 50% androsterone +50% dehydroisoandrosterone in oily solution is seen to be irregular due to its peculiar activity. The interpretation of this response is not clear."

"...Our studies on the chick's comb indicated that this mathematical response did not prevail with biological material, and that potentiation appeared to exist in certain proportionate mixtures between androsterone and dehydroisoandrosterone in vivo. Dehydroisoandrosterone, while much less active than androsterone when used alone, became very active when combined with a small amount of androsterone. However, a small amount of dehydroisoandrosterone combined with androsterone depressed the normally enhanced activity of the androsterone, resulting in a much depressed response. The important implications of these findings become immediately apparent when we review the altered proportion of these substances in the pathologic state in the human as compared to the excretions as found normally."

"...Paradoxically, as the amount of the biologically less active component (dehydroisoandrosterone) was increased in the mixture the biological response of the chicks' comb was enhanced. Contrary to anticipation, a mixture of 5% dehydroisoandrosterone +95% androsterone gave the most depressing response of the chicks' comb, while 75% dehydroisoandrosterone +25% androsterone gave the greatest response. Apparently the amount of androsterone in the mixture does not control the order of response of the biological material."
 

Makrosky

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Amazing, Professor haidut.

Including pregnenolone to the mix (as in Pansterone+Androsterone) wouldn't do any harm, right ?
 

mirc12354

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So, if this combination is tried I think a dose of 2mg androsterone + 5mg DHEA (i.e. 25% / 75% ratio) up to 5mg androsterone + 5mg DHEA (i.e. 50% / 50% ratio), taken 1-2 times daily would be enough to reap all the benefits this study and others like it found.
What about optimal ratio for taking DHEA (Pansterone) with 11-keto DHT?? I read in one of the threads someone asking if he can stop taking 11-k DHT and replace it with Androsterone and you replied he can do that and you suggested him replacing 11-k DHT with twice the amount of Androsterone. So according to that if the ideal ratio of androsterone to DHEA ranges from 1:3 to 1:1 then the ideal ratio of 11-k DHT to DHEA would be from 1:6 to 1:2 or am I oversimplifying?
 

Vinero

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To be honest 11-keto-DHT had pretty weak effects on me apart from nicer dreams and slight lowering of stress. But inspired by this post tried to combine it with Pansterone. I took about 5 mg Pansterone and 5 mg 11-Keto-DHT. I have to say that the synergy between DHEA and 11-KETO-DHT feels fantastic and very androgenic! Combining DHEA with DHT really turns it into rocket fuel! I am never going to take either one of those hormones alone from now on! Next experiment will be DHEA (as in Pansterone) + Androsterone.
 
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mirc12354

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To be honest 11-keto-DHT had pretty weak effects on me apart from nicer dreams and slight lowering of stress. But inspired by this post tried to combine it with Pansterone. I took about 5 mg Pansterone and 5 mg 11-Keto-DHT. I have to say that the synergy between DHEA and 11-KETO-DHT feels fantastic and very androgenic! Combining DHEA with DHT really turns it into rocket fuel! I am never going to take either one of those hormones alone from now on! Next experiment will be Pansterone + Androsterone.

What were the effects you felt?
 

haidut

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What about optimal ratio for taking DHEA (Pansterone) with 11-keto DHT?? I read in one of the threads someone asking if he can stop taking 11-k DHT and replace it with Androsterone and you replied he can do that and you suggested him replacing 11-k DHT with twice the amount of Androsterone. So according to that if the ideal ratio of androsterone to DHEA ranges from 1:3 to 1:1 then the ideal ratio of 11-k DHT to DHEA would be from 1:6 to 1:2 or am I oversimplifying?

Well, 2mg 11-keto DHT with the 5mg preg/DHEA dose in Pansterone is probably about right. In my experiments, androsterone works best when used in the same dose as DHEA, so if used with Pansterone I'd do 5mg andosterone with the 5mg preg/DHEA in Pansterone. Lower doses also have pronounced effects so I'd just keep the 1:1 ratio for those doses as well.
 

haidut

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Amazing, Professor haidut.

Including pregnenolone to the mix (as in Pansterone+Androsterone) wouldn't do any harm, right ?

Nope, it actually potentiates is quite nicely as pregnenolone stimulates conversion of DHEA and androsterone into other steroids.
 

haidut

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To be honest 11-keto-DHT had pretty weak effects on me apart from nicer dreams and slight lowering of stress. But inspired by this post tried to combine it with Pansterone. I took about 5 mg Pansterone and 5 mg 11-Keto-DHT. I have to say that the synergy between DHEA and 11-KETO-DHT feels fantastic and very androgenic! Combining DHEA with DHT really turns it into rocket fuel! I am never going to take either one of those hormones alone from now on! Next experiment will be DHEA (as in Pansterone) + Androsterone.

Yeah, I feel the same. Using androsterone + Pansterone in a 1:1 ratio basically gives me the thyroid effects of T3 but is also VERY androgenic. Muscle power is through the roof. People commented on how I carried heavy stuff back and forth like a mule while joking and even sprinting with an armchair in my hands up some stairs.
 

Vinero

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Is it ok to put lets say 1 drop of Androsterone and 1 drop of Pansterone at the same site/place? Or can the skin only absorb so much of any given steroid? For example, I have a small scar just above my eyebrow and often I apply steroids there on that spot (in the hope it will heal somehow). Would both Androsterone and Pansterone still absorb fully if I both put one drop on the same place?
 

haidut

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Is it ok to put lets say 1 drop of Androsterone and 1 drop of Pansterone at the same site/place? Or can the skin only absorb so much of any given steroid? For example, I have a small scar just above my eyebrow and often I apply steroids there on that spot (in the hope it will heal somehow). Would both Androsterone and Pansterone still absorb fully if I both put one drop on the same place?

Well, yeah, why wouldn't they absorb together? It's not like one of them blocks the absorption of the other. You can apply from separate containers or mix both - i.e. it does not matter, it will still absorb.
 

Makrosky

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Yeah, I feel the same. Using androsterone + Pansterone in a 1:1 ratio basically gives me the thyroid effects of T3 but is also VERY androgenic. Muscle power is through the roof. People commented on how I carried heavy stuff back and forth like a mule while joking and even sprinting with an armchair in my hands up some stairs.

ROFL!!! hahahahaha

Haidut what the hell your coworkers say about you ? I mean... They must have been seeing your health improving more and more and more and I can recall you said once after lunch they were like zombies. Don't they ask you for your secret ? Haven't they jumped into the Peat vagon ?
 

Mufasa

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Yeah, I feel the same. Using androsterone + Pansterone in a 1:1 ratio basically gives me the thyroid effects of T3 but is also VERY androgenic. Muscle power is through the roof. People commented on how I carried heavy stuff back and forth like a mule while joking and even sprinting with an armchair in my hands up some stairs.

I have some similar effect as you describe with 11-keto DHT or pansterone (applied on testicles).
 

haidut

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ROFL!!! hahahahaha

Haidut what the hell your coworkers say about you ? I mean... They must have been seeing your health improving more and more and more and I can recall you said once after lunch they were like zombies. Don't they ask you for your secret ? Haven't they jumped into the Peat vagon ?

They think I am on some "drugs" and when I say, well yeah but they are all over the counter they just roll their eye and say "yeah, wahtever" and walk away. One of them tried the high B1 doses I recommended for long distance running and now he recommends it to them too. But to no avail, they think I am paying him to peddle my stuff. As if I sell all the generic thiamine (B1) in the world...
Anyways, hard to get through the ignorance sometimes.
 

Regina

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They think I am on some "drugs" and when I say, well yeah but they are all over the counter they just roll their eye and say "yeah, wahtever" and walk away. One of them tried the high B1 doses I recommended for long distance running and now he recommends it to them too. But to no avail, they think I am paying him to peddle my stuff. As if I sell all the generic thiamine (B1) in the world...
Anyways, hard to get through the ignorance sometimes.
It's stunning isn't it? Several of the students at my dojo have "knee issues". Not from injury. Not ACL stuff. But under the cap. Duh. Calcification. They see I have taken the red tape (to mark an injury) off my right shoulder and witness me going from complete debilitation of that arm to training just fine with it. I tell them what I did. (45 mg Kuinone daily). I printed out 3 articles on Vitamin K2 and soft tissue calcification. But I just get blinking, even resentful, stares and even the snotty, "Are you a Doctor?" Or sneering, 'so you just took this stuff on the internet and you didn't even get an X-ray. No thanks. I'll ask My Doctor.' It's a weird belligerent ignorance that leaves me scratching my head.
 

haidut

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It's stunning isn't it? Several of the students at my dojo have "knee issues". Not from injury. Not ACL stuff. But under the cap. Duh. Calcification. They see I have taken the red tape (to mark an injury) off my right shoulder and witness me going from complete debilitation of that arm to training just fine with it. I tell them what I did. (45 mg Kuinone daily). I printed out 3 articles on Vitamin K2 and soft tissue calcification. But I just get blinking, even resentful, stares and even the snotty, "Are you a Doctor?" Or sneering, 'so you just took this stuff on the internet and you didn't even get an X-ray. No thanks. I'll ask My Doctor.' It's a weird belligerent ignorance that leaves me scratching my head.

It's hard for most people to entertain the thought that all the money they are paying may be going in vain. It's not an easy state to be in and in fact there are only 2 ways out - i.e. either you double-down and blindly believe your doctor (delusion) or you have to face a mountain of information to sift through and figure things out on your own. Recently, the publishers of the DSM manual (used to diagnose psychiatric illness) changed the definitions around so that if you have a realistic outlook on the world you fit the diagnosis of clinical depression. I am not kidding, check it out. I think that started in DSM IV and became even worse in DSM V. So, the medical profession actively encourages delusion as a "healthy" mental state.
 
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Regina

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It's hard for most people to entertain the thought that all the money they are paying may be going in vain. It's not an easy state to be in and in fact there are only 2 ways out - i.e. either you double-down and blindly believe your doctor (delusion) or you have to face a mountain of information to sift through and figure things out on your own. Recently, the publishers of the DSM manual used to diagnose psychiatric illness changed the definitions around so that if you have a realistic outlook on the world you fit the diagnosis of clinical depression. I am not kidding, check it out. I think that started in DSM IV and became even worse in DSM V. So, the medical profession actively encourages delusion as a "healthy" mental state.
Bingo! That's why I study Haidut-do. :freedom
 

Evan

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From experimenting with Androsterone/DHEA mixture, have you noticed elevations of hormones after testing, like T,DHT,etc? @haidut
What should be the conversion ratio when combining both of these?

Also, would this combo help before a workout, or with recovery after a workout? Whens the best time of day to take these?
 

haidut

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From experimenting with Androsterone/DHEA mixture, have you noticed elevations of hormones after testing, like T,DHT,etc? @haidut
What should be the conversion ratio when combining both of these?

Also, would this combo help before a workout, or with recovery after a workout? Whens the best time of day to take these?

My DHT doubled after using Pansterone for about 3 months. Since then it has been stable at the upper limit of normal. When I used just androsterone at 15mg daily for just a week the DHT went above the upper limit, so now I don't take as much and combine it with Pansterone. Current dosing is 8 drops Pansterone daily combined with 5 drops androsterone to get to a 1:1 ratio with DHEA. I feel like it helps a lot with recovery from exercise as even after a 90-minute soccer game I don't feel sore any more when I take it after the game. The next day is also pretty good and without it I feel like a beaten dog. It also helps a lot with sleep when taken before bed, probably due to the GABA agonism and increased conversion of T4 into T3.
 

Evan

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Do you test your hormone levels a lot when experimenting with these? Seems like you test pretty regularly. Would Testosterone be a bit lower since theres a higher ratio of it converting to DHT now?
 

tca300

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@haidut So is this study saying Androsterone + DHEA was more androgenic than even Testosterone + DHT? Thank you!
 
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