DHEA Has Very Similar Anabolic Activity To DHT

[haidut]

Ok big thanks :) Last question: do you think it's better to cycle it (something like 5 days on 2 days off or 1 week on 1 week off) or just take it daily non-stop? This is my first time playing with hormone boosters like pregnenolone and DHEA, and I don't want to loose my hair haha

If you take pregnenolone like Peat suggests - once a week 300mg - then I don't think there a need to cycle pregnenolone. DHEA has also evidence of being effective in weekly doses. So, if you take your weekly pregnenolone on Mondays and DHEA (maybe 50mg) on Fridays then they should be far enough to not need cycling. But of course, the only way to know for sure if go get a blood test and see if your levels get too high.

 

[Strongbad]

Thanks, haidut. You're the man!

When it comes to concern of rising estrogen, it seems that increasing coconut oil intake fixes the problem:

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15&start=135#p22977

Interesting study too:

[highlight=#ffbfff]Anti-androgenic activity of fatty acids.
Liu J, Shimizu K, Kondo R.
Source

Department of Forest and Forest Products Science, Faculty of Agriculture, Kyushu University, Fukuoka 812-8581, Japan.
Abstract

In this study, we show that 5alpha-reductase derived from rat fresh liver was inhibited by certain aliphatic free fatty acids. The influences of chain length, unsaturation, oxidation, and esterification on the potency to inhibit 5alpha-reductase activity were studied. Among the fatty acids we tested, inhibitory saturated fatty acids had C12-C16 chains, and the presence of a C==C bond enhanced the inhibitory activity. Esterification and hydroxy compounds were totally inactive. Finally, we tested the prostate cancer cell proliferation effect of free fatty acids. In keeping with the results of the 5alpha-reductase assay, saturated fatty acids with a C12 chain (lauric acid) and unsaturated fatty acids (oleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid) showed a proliferation inhibitory effect on lymph-node carcinoma of the prostate (LNCaP) cells. At the same time, the testosterone-induced prostate-specific antigen (PSA) mRNA expression was down-regulated. These results suggested that fatty acids with 5alpha-reductase inhibitory activity block the conversion of testosterone to 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and then inhibit the proliferation of prostate cancer cells.[/highlight]

It seems that extra androgens could be caused by excess 5alpha-reductase which could be reduced by fats esp. lauric acid (coconut oil!)...oh my

 

[haidut]

Thanks, haidut. You're the man!

When it comes to concern of rising estrogen, it seems that increasing coconut oil intake fixes the problem:

http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15&start=135#p22977

Interesting study too:

[highlight=#ffbfff]Anti-androgenic activity of fatty acids.
Liu J, Shimizu K, Kondo R.
Source

Department of Forest and Forest Products Science, Faculty of Agriculture, Kyushu University, Fukuoka 812-8581, Japan.
Abstract

In this study, we show that 5alpha-reductase derived from rat fresh liver was inhibited by certain aliphatic free fatty acids. The influences of chain length, unsaturation, oxidation, and esterification on the potency to inhibit 5alpha-reductase activity were studied. Among the fatty acids we tested, inhibitory saturated fatty acids had C12-C16 chains, and the presence of a C==C bond enhanced the inhibitory activity. Esterification and hydroxy compounds were totally inactive. Finally, we tested the prostate cancer cell proliferation effect of free fatty acids. In keeping with the results of the 5alpha-reductase assay, saturated fatty acids with a C12 chain (lauric acid) and unsaturated fatty acids (oleic acid and alpha-linolenic acid) showed a proliferation inhibitory effect on lymph-node carcinoma of the prostate (LNCaP) cells. At the same time, the testosterone-induced prostate-specific antigen (PSA) mRNA expression was down-regulated. These results suggested that fatty acids with 5alpha-reductase inhibitory activity block the conversion of testosterone to 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and then inhibit the proliferation of prostate cancer cells.[/highlight]

It seems that extra androgens could be caused by excess 5alpha-reductase which could be reduced by fats esp. lauric acid (coconut oil!)...oh my

Where do you see coconut oil helping with the estrogen? The quote you provided talks about DHT reduction.
Am I missing something?
Btw, the testosterone and DHT linked to prostate cancer is a myth. I posted a study showing testosterone actually helping some advanced prostate cancer patients, and several months ago I posted another study showing prostate cancer is caused bu high estrogen. Peat has said pretty much the same thing btw.

 

[cantstoppeating]

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

Naturally, I'd like you to expand on that first point.

Bigger in terms of more tissue/gland/penile growth or in terms of better blood flow giving the perception of being relatively bigger?

Longer and thicker. More growth

Better blood flow also though, this diet is good for feeling horny

Vitamin K gave you a wider face and now DHEA gave you a larger and thicker penis

This is commonly known as 'purberty'.

 

[Strongbad]

Where do you see coconut oil helping with the estrogen? The quote you provided talks about DHT reduction.
Am I missing something?
Btw, the testosterone and DHT linked to prostate cancer is a myth. I posted a study showing testosterone actually helping some advanced prostate cancer patients, and several months ago I posted another study showing prostate cancer is caused bu high estrogen. Peat has said pretty much the same thing btw.

My bad, I took the quote from Pregnenolone thread, which isn't even DHEA-related

 

[BobbyDukes]

If DHEA does nothing for a person, and seems to have estrogen like side effects at all dosages, does this suggest that my DHEA might actually be too high? I get the same negative response from low doses of preg and very high doses of preg. Three years ago, I tried DHEA and it gave me euphoria for three days (and great stress reduction). Then it did nothing and my sex drive went to zero. I tried cutting back the dose, and nothing improved. Things carried on getting worse so I stopped. It seemed to take a while to leave my system, IIRC. I tried it again maybe five or six times, over the last three years and each time, it has done nothing. Never had blood work done to see what my DHEA levels are. For me, just ramping up sugar and increasing cholesterol should do the job (hopefully) in producing DHEA naturally. Maybe my body is ok in that respect and just doesn't need it.

It's funny someone mentioned vitamin K. Now that is one supplement that seems to do the exact same things that have been mentioned here. My penis is much thicker; my erections are like concrete, and I am even getting spontaneous ones popping up (which I normally don't even get in the summer). It must be mopping up my arteries, because my penis is actually red now when it's hard as well. It throbs. Saying that, I have started taking calcium carbonate to ensure my cal:phos ratio is correct, and I now nibble t3 every hour. So these are factors too. I should take away the K2 and see if this effect goes away.

 

[Strongbad]

BobbyDukes, what was your daily/weekly dosage? And how long did you take them before you lost libido? And what is your height and weight? I assume different physical stats require different dosage.

I finally took 60mg pregnenolone (instead of 30) and 15mg DHEA. Wow, the effect is immediate! Feel relaxed and everything. But I don't know if it's doing any facelift, though. I don't even know how "facelifting" feels like.

I also took Vitamin E in the morning, then Vitamin K + D3 + A + B + Zinc + Tongkat Ali (Long Jack) right after lunch.

Now I'm back in the office with my red light therapy on

Edit: Now about 45 min in, my feet feel really cold, especially my right foot. Is this a good thing or bad thing?

 

[gummybear]

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

Naturally, I'd like you to expand on that first point.

Bigger in terms of more tissue/gland/penile growth or in terms of better blood flow giving the perception of being relatively bigger?

Longer and thicker. More growth

Better blood flow also though, this diet is good for feeling horny

Vitamin K gave you a wider face and now DHEA gave you a larger and thicker penis

This is commonly known as 'purberty'.

I am long over puberty my dear

 

[cantstoppeating]

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

I am long over puberty my dear

Indeed, son. Which is why I believe you think you got a wider face and a larger penis by taking Vit K and DHEA respectively, however in reality it's unlikely you did and what you noticed was simply better skin quality and better blood flow.

 

[gummybear]

Bigger penis, lower stress and more sperm

I am long over puberty my dear

Indeed, son. Which is why I believe you think you got a wider face and a larger penis by taking Vit K and DHEA respectively, however in reality it's unlikely you did and what you noticed was simply better skin quality and better blood flow.

Why are you so jealous?

 

[Strongbad]

I've been taking 60mg pregnenolone and 15mg DHEA daily for a week now, 5 days on, 2 days off. I always feel great after first taking it, but hours later, my heart start beating fast, I get nervous and jittery easily and it's difficult to manually calm down from stress now due since I'm constantly jittery, nervous and having fast heart beat. Zits, skin inflammation and acne start forming out of my face now, especially on area below my lips. Why am I having these symptoms? Is my estrogen kicking up? What's the solution? I always take vitamin A, B, D, E, K, zinc, Tongkat Ali in addition of Preg and DHEA.

My hair also start shedding. Maybe 2-4 strands everytime I rub my hair on my sculp. After I started putting (liquid) Vitamin E + Caffeine + Aspirin diluted in vodka this past Sunday.

 

[narouz]

I've been taking 60mg pregnenolone and 15mg DHEA daily for a week now, 5 days on, 2 days off. I always feel great after first taking it, but hours later, my heart start beating fast, I get nervous and jittery easily and it's difficult to manually calm down from stress now due since I'm constantly jittery, nervous and having fast heart beat. Zits, skin inflammation and acne start forming out of my face now, especially on area below my lips. Why am I having these symptoms? Is my estrogen kicking up? What's the solution? I always take vitamin A, B, D, E, K, zinc, Tongkat Ali in addition of Preg and DHEA.

My hair also start shedding. Maybe 2-4 strands everytime I rub my hair on my sculp. After I started putting (liquid) Vitamin E + Caffeine + Aspirin diluted in vodka this past Sunday.

Strong-
Hmmm...interesting.
I was just trying to get help over in the Methylene Blue thread
to figure out why I've had a touch of a scared-y cat feeling the last week or so.
I was focusing on the MB, and maybe the lysine and benadryl I'd been taking.
But I neglected to consider the small amounts of DHEA I've added in over the last week--
like 5mg x 3 per day.
And I've had a bit of palpitations too.

As I was hypothesizing in the other thread,
I thought maybe the MB (and even the lysine and Benadryl)
might've picked up my metabolism
and, in effect, exaserbated my hypothyroidism:
more foot on the gas but with no increase in thyroid supps.

Are you hypo?

 

[kineticz]

I've been taking 60mg pregnenolone and 15mg DHEA daily for a week now, 5 days on, 2 days off. I always feel great after first taking it, but hours later, my heart start beating fast, I get nervous and jittery easily and it's difficult to manually calm down from stress now due since I'm constantly jittery, nervous and having fast heart beat. Zits, skin inflammation and acne start forming out of my face now, especially on area below my lips. Why am I having these symptoms? Is my estrogen kicking up? What's the solution? I always take vitamin A, B, D, E, K, zinc, Tongkat Ali in addition of Preg and DHEA.

My hair also start shedding. Maybe 2-4 strands everytime I rub my hair on my sculp. After I started putting (liquid) Vitamin E + Caffeine + Aspirin diluted in vodka this past Sunday.

With hypothyroidism, It is possible that your ACTH becomes downregulated due to excess adrenal steroids, hence an increase in adrenaline. In this state, with the additional adrenal hormones being supplemented, perhaps hyperandrogenism is causing the zits, and hairloss. You need to lower your preg dose, say 10mg, and/or boost your basal metabolic rate.

Or, when I started taking DHEA the first time, I also had hair shedding, but it didn't cause my hair to thin, rather it was pushing out hair that had slowed in growth, also due to hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people's hair tends to slow in renewal and remains in the 'hibernation' state of hair growth. If you research hair growth stages you will see it goes through different patterns.

 

[kineticz]

Strong-
Hmmm...interesting.
I was just trying to get help over in the Methylene Blue thread
to figure out why I've had a touch of a scared-y cat feeling the last week or so.
I was focusing on the MB, and maybe the lysine and benadryl I'd been taking.

Narouz, when I take biotin, or too much lysine, I also get feelings of 'scared-y cat'. Biotin and lysine work together somehow in the mitochondrial cycle.

With the lysine, I only get the anxiety over 2gram. Below 2gram, it works wonders for serotonin syndrome.

 

[narouz]

...when I started taking DHEA the first time, I also had hair shedding, but it didn't cause my hair to thin, rather it was pushing out hair that had slowed in growth, also due to hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people's hair tends to slow in renewal and remains in the 'hibernation' state of hair growth. If you research hair growth stages you will see it goes through different patterns.

kin-
Interesting.
So, let me get this straight:
you are hypothyroid
and then when you started taking DHEA...and you say hair started getting pushed out...

How do you think the DHEA interacted with your hypothyroidism in that episode?
Do you take thyroid supps? :)

 

[narouz]

Strong-
Hmmm...interesting.
I was just trying to get help over in the Methylene Blue thread
to figure out why I've had a touch of a scared-y cat feeling the last week or so.
I was focusing on the MB, and maybe the lysine and benadryl I'd been taking.

Narouz, when I take biotin, or too much lysine, I also get feelings of 'scared-y cat'. Biotin and lysine work together somehow in the mitochondrial cycle.

With the lysine, I only get the anxiety over 2gram. Below 2gram, it works wonders for serotonin syndrome.

damn.
I was taking lysine in big volumes:
one day 3g
the next day 6 grams.
then 1-3g for a few more days.

And I was taking biotin in high doses during the same time frame!
It never crossed my mind about biotin
or a biotin+lysine co-factoring!

 

[kineticz]

...when I started taking DHEA the first time, I also had hair shedding, but it didn't cause my hair to thin, rather it was pushing out hair that had slowed in growth, also due to hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people's hair tends to slow in renewal and remains in the 'hibernation' state of hair growth. If you research hair growth stages you will see it goes through different patterns.

kin-
Interesting.
So, let me get this straight:
you are hypothyroid
and then when you started taking DHEA...and you say hair started getting pushed out...

How do you think the DHEA interacted with your hypothyroidism in that episode?
Do you take thyroid supps? :)

Hi :P

In prolonged hypothyroidism, and prolonged norephiprene, you can sometimes have a dopamine signal that is more powerful than the serotonin, particularly if you have broken through the 'rumination' and 'helplessness' that comes with catabolism. I had a stage in my life where I got severely run down, but through sheer irritability and impatience, and much stress in the gym, I managed to come out the other side with maxed out adrenals, and evidently sky high noradrenaline, but I felt supremely powerful. We should never underestimate the power of the mind in directing our energetic frequency in every day life.

In this state, ACTH is maximised (noradrenaline stimulates ACTH when hormones are depleted, it is the key stress signal). When there is a prolonged deficiency of cortisol, noradrenaline is more likely to increase, especially if you block the effects of excess serotonin from directly stimulating cortisol. If you push hard enough, as I did, serotonin receptors get less dense than dopamine and norephiprene ones. But this is still a hypothyroid state (low cortisol, high tyrosine to adrenaline conversions, low zinc), and is a very tough road indeed to overcome serotonin in this manner. I went through hell mentally and physically during this breakdown.

Anyway, when you add DHEA in this state, where noradrenaline is superior to serotonin, and you've broken through the helpless grip of depression, it will cause pregnenolone sparing, and allow your other adrenal hormones some respite. The cascade, at least temporarily, as far as your basal metabolic rate will allow, will flow through you. ACTH is a key signal for LDL cholesterol to pregnenolone, and low serotonin in comparison to norephiprene allows the mitochondria to respire more efficiently. It is this respite that allows hair to continue growing, as it's given the signal that you are no longer in 'famine' and there is an addition of pregnenolone and neurotransmitters to continue renewing proteins such as hair.

Then, when your basal metabolic rate reaches it's limit, ACTH downregulates at the pituitary, and you end up worse than you started.

 

[kineticz]

Strong-
Hmmm...interesting.
I was just trying to get help over in the Methylene Blue thread
to figure out why I've had a touch of a scared-y cat feeling the last week or so.
I was focusing on the MB, and maybe the lysine and benadryl I'd been taking.

Narouz, when I take biotin, or too much lysine, I also get feelings of 'scared-y cat'. Biotin and lysine work together somehow in the mitochondrial cycle.

With the lysine, I only get the anxiety over 2gram. Below 2gram, it works wonders for serotonin syndrome.

damn.
I was taking lysine in big volumes:
one day 3g
the next day 6 grams.
then 1-3g for a few more days.

And I was taking biotin in high doses during the same time frame!
It never crossed my mind about biotin
or a biotin+lysine co-factoring!

Yep, I had horrible sleep and nightmares with that combo, due to the frightfulness feeling.

 

[narouz]

...when I started taking DHEA the first time, I also had hair shedding, but it didn't cause my hair to thin, rather it was pushing out hair that had slowed in growth, also due to hypothyroidism. Hypothyroid people's hair tends to slow in renewal and remains in the 'hibernation' state of hair growth. If you research hair growth stages you will see it goes through different patterns.

kin-
Interesting.
So, let me get this straight:
you are hypothyroid
and then when you started taking DHEA...and you say hair started getting pushed out...

How do you think the DHEA interacted with your hypothyroidism in that episode?
Do you take thyroid supps? :)

Hi :P

In prolonged hypothyroidism, and prolonged norephiprene, you can sometimes have a dopamine signal that is more powerful than the serotonin, particularly if you have broken through the 'rumination' and 'helplessness' that comes with catabolism. I had a stage in my life where I got severely run down, but through sheer irritability and impatience, and much stress in the gym, I managed to come out the other side with maxed out adrenals, and evidently sky high noradrenaline, but I felt supremely powerful. We should never underestimate the power of the mind in directing our energetic frequency in every day life.

In this state, ACTH is maximised (noradrenaline stimulates ACTH when hormones are depleted, it is the key stress signal). When there is a prolonged deficiency of cortisol, noradrenaline is more likely to increase, especially if you block the effects of excess serotonin from directly stimulating cortisol. If you push hard enough, as I did, serotonin receptors get less dense than dopamine and norephiprene ones. But this is still a hypothyroid state (low cortisol, high tyrosine to adrenaline conversions, low zinc), and is a very tough road indeed to overcome serotonin in this manner. I went through hell mentally and physically during this breakdown.

Anyway, when you add DHEA in this state, where noradrenaline is superior to serotonin, and you've broken through the helpless grip of depression, it will cause pregnenolone sparing, and allow your other adrenal hormones some respite. The cascade, at least temporarily, as far as your basal metabolic rate will allow, will flow through you. ACTH is a key signal for LDL cholesterol to pregnenolone, and low serotonin in comparison to norephiprene allows the mitochondria to respire more efficiently. It is this respite that allows hair to continue growing, as it's given the signal that you are no longer in 'famine' and there is an addition of pregnenolone and neurotransmitters to continue renewing proteins such as hair.

Then, when your basal metabolic rate reaches it's limit, ACTH downregulates at the pituitary, and you end up worse than you started.

Fascinating.
Did you ever have palpitations in trying to navigate though all that?

 

[kineticz]

Fascinating.
Did you ever have palpitations in trying to navigate though all that?

Only right at the end of my DHEA supplementation, when my metabolic rate was very low and I was estrogen dominant. Also panic attacks due to the prolactin and adrenaline.

I know first hand that if your basal metabolic rate is very low, you do not want to take oral pregnenolone, or oral DHEA. It is catastrophic.