Why DHEA Must Be Taken In Small Doses Only

Rand56

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Would you include the steroidal AI exemestane that strongly ressembles androstenedione?

No I would never take an AI, including exemestane ever again. Fairly recent bad experience with even low dose exemastane. Nasty sh**. Sorry to those who think they are great, lol.
 

shepherdgirl

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This studies shows the that the estrogenic effects of DHEA start manifesting only at concentrations of 500nM or higher. A single dose of 15mg of DHEA results in concentrations slightly higher than 500nM, so Ray's recommendations at 10mg being the cutoff for non-estrogenic effects seem spot on.
Are you referring to blood concentration? Should body mass be taken into account, i.e. a small person would achieve a higher concentration than a large person taking the same dose?
 
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TheBeard

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No I would never take an AI, including exemestane ever again. Fairly recent bad experience with even low dose exemastane. Nasty sh**. Sorry to those who think they are great, lol.

You would do a great help to all members by expliciting your experience with it and what the sides were
 

Rand56

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You would do a great help to all members by expliciting your experience with it and what the sides were

People can do a search if they want. I've explained my experience on another thread. Quite frankly, I'd rather not explain it again. Just would give ammo for some "so-called" guru's on here to say "you must have done it all wrong" and/or "did you take it with progesterone?" It's like...OK let me eat some black mold, and I'll make sure I drink plenty of water along with it, and take a bunch of cascara, and I'm sure I'll be fine, lol.

How about just not taking any AI. Seems more logical to me.

Honestly, I think the fear mongering about estrogen on this forum is over the top. There are progressive TRT docs, who end up getting patients who previously were on cookie-cutter protocols from other docs, who had them on AI's also along with T. These docs get them off the AI's and these people start feeling better, They don't care about the E rising along with the T. I'd rather trust these docs in what they are saying because they have years of experience with their patients, and I put less faith in "so-called" guru's on health forum sites speaking the evil of estrogen, when they have not had the same years of experience with patients.
 

Goobz

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(my post dıdnt post properly on thıs foreıgn keyboard.... ıll repost ıt separately later)
 
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CLASH

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@Rand56
What about using vit e, a very small amount of progesterone, or a weekly aspirin or something like that with some dietary changes to keep estrogen on the lower end as opposed to blasted into the ground? I’m not asking to tell you what to do, just asking if you’ve tried any of those things? I’m interested to know if there side effects were less mild overall with atleast some benefit? Interested in your experience.
 

baccheion

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Yea, use fat-soluble vitamins to naturally oppose aromatase/estrogen. B vitamins aid clearance. Minerals are also in play, even if just magnesium and zinc (+ copper). And iodine.
 
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haidut

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Are you referring to blood concentration? Should body mass be taken into account, i.e. a small person would achieve a higher concentration than a large person taking the same dose?

Yes, it would depend on mass but human studies with women showed anything over (and including) 16mg daily DHEA raised estrogen in women. That result was averaged over many study participants but still corroborates that hyper-physiological (anything over 10mg-15mg daily) doses raise estrogen in adults.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Estrone is a really weak estrogen, AIs are trash anyway.

Don’t conflate XENOestrogens with E1/E2

Estrone may be a weak estrogen but it is the main estrogen produced peripherally by both men and women (mostly in fat tissue). Its synthesis grows with age due to the high expression in aromatase in fat tissue, and it is the main "reservoir" of estrogen in the organism as it can easily be converted to estradiol and estriol as needed.
Estrone - Wikipedia
"...Estrone is an estrogen, specifically an agonist of the estrogen receptors ERα and ERβ.[1][4] It is a far less potent estrogen than is estradiol, and as such, is a relatively weak estrogen.[1][4][5] Given by subcutaneous injection in mice, estradiol is about 10-fold more potent than estrone and about 100-fold more potent than estriol.[6] According to one study, the relative binding affinities of estrone for the human ERα and ERβ were 4.0% and 3.5% of those estradiol, respectively, and the relative transactivational capacities of estrone at the ERα and ERβ were 2.6% and 4.3% of those of estradiol, respectively.[4] In accordance, the estrogenic activity of estrone has been reported to be approximately 4% of that of estradiol.[1] In addition to its low estrogenic potency, estrone, unlike estradiol and estriol, is not accumulated in estrogen target tissues.[1] Because estrone can be transformed into estradiol, most of the estrogenic potency of estrone in vivo is actually due to conversion into estradiol.[1] As such, estrone is considered to be a precursor or prohormone of estradiol.[3]"

As such, estrone, and especially its long-lived version estrone sulfate (E1S), are reliable gauges of total body estrogenic load and predict quite reliably mortality from both breast and prostate cancer.
https://raypeatforum.com/community/threads/test-for-estrogenic-activity-and-prostate-cancer.7886/

So, while it is indeed preferable to have higher as opposed to lower ratio of estrone/estradiol, having high levels of estrone and especially of E1S is by no means benign.
 
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haidut

haidut

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You would do a great help to all members by expliciting your experience with it and what the sides were

Don't bother. People like him/her never provide evidence. They just run around by claiming to be the lone contrarian voice against "gurus" (presumably me) but in reality they just troll. It is easy to say "people can just search" if they want to find the truth. It is much harder to actually do the reading and present a coherent argument. When the evidence is indisputable that estrogen synthesis grows with age in both sexes, that estrogen is the cause of both breast and prostate cancer, dementia, ALS, Parkinson, etc and even the NIH has labelled it as a human carcinogen, you are not going to get any evidence when you ask for it.
New Federal Report on Carcinogens Lists Estrogen Therapy, Ultraviolet, Wood Dust
"...The federal government today published its biennial Report on Carcinogens, adding steroidal estrogens used in estrogen replacement therapy and oral contraceptives to its official list of "known" human carcinogens. This and 15 other new listings bring the total of substances in the report, "known" or "reasonably anticipated" to pose a cancer risk, to 228."

But I bet you those anti-gurus use all kinds of other (usually toxic and misguided) methods to block estrogen. The same people who whine about AI are usually perfectly happy to use toxic (and estrogenic) SERM like clomid or tamoxifen, and when they finally get gyno from aging/obesity or whatever estrogenic, bodybuilding-approved, bro-science inspired regimen they run to dopamine agonists like cabergoline, bromocriptine, etc to solve their problems. And guess what, those dopamine agonists just happen to be anti-estrogenic.
LSD-derivatives Like Bromocriptine Can Fully Cure Breast Cancer

So, estrogen is only good when they say so but as soon as it starts creating problems for THEM then all kinds of anti-estrogenic tricks are used behind the scenes that you never hear about. Including using AI, which of course will never be admitted publicly.
 

Rand56

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Hey @haidut I guess anyone who goes against your opinion on something must be a troll right? lol what a joke.
 

Rand56

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Oh and I'll take doctors hands on experiences with patients over studies any day of the week.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Hey @haidut I guess anyone who goes against your opinion on something must be a troll right? lol what a joke.

I am not the one who has so far provided nothing but insults and trolling. Learn to read the scientific literature, get in touch with reputable labs who do actual work on estrogen, and start accumulating real knowledge. Developing knowledge takes time and effort. But you know better, right? People can just "go search" and voila, all of estrogen's benefits are on full display.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Oh and I'll take doctors hands on experiences with patients over studies any day of the week.

I work with doctor on a daily basis too. What experiments with estrogen are they performing that come back so positive? Evidence, please! Are you familiar with the meaning of that word??
 

Rand56

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I am not the one who has so far provided nothing but insults and trolling. Learn to read the scientific literature, get in touch with reputable labs who do actual work on estrogen, and start accumulating real knowledge. Developing knowledge takes time and effort. But you know better, right? People can just "go search" and voila, all of estrogen's benefits are on full display.

Read what I said just above.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Wow that is harsh. I must have hit a nerve.

No, you did not hit a nerve. I simply responded to your passive-aggressive comments. Again, estrogen is a known human carcinogen, and its levels only grow with age and disease. If all the third-party evidence I provided is nothing by "my opinion" then we don't have much to discuss.
 
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haidut

haidut

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Read what I said just above.

I did read it. Still waiting on YOUR evidence, or at least the description of the estrogen (a known human carcinogen) experiments performed by doctors. Where are those experiments performed? By whom? Where are the published results? What are those so enticingly "positive" results you simply don't care to share here?
 

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