Pregnenolone, Progesterone, DHEA Increase Breast Size In Females

haidut

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Please keep in mind that this is a rodent study, and done on menopausal animals. However, I do not see a reason why these findings would not translate to other organisms as well, including healthy human females. The most notable finding IMHO is that DHEA achieved these effects by acting like a fully adrogenic compound and even DHT could not compete with its effects on breast size. This study underscores once again the androgenicity of DHEA when applied topically. The breast size increase was similar to that observed in pregnancy/lactation, so it corresponds to a pretty significant increase of 1-3 digits in cup size. Finally, DHEA did not just increase breast size but it completely reversed the breast atrophy and other negative tissue changes seen in ovariectomized animals (a rodent model of menopause). DHEA was applied topically on a portion of dorsal (back) skin of the animals. The DHEA dose used was high, it would correspond to a few hundred milligrams daily in humans. Given that topical application of 18mg (and above) DHEA daily produced statistically significant increases of all estrogens (estradiol, estrone, estriol) in humans I would advise keeping DHEA intake under 15mg daily. I think that if a smaller dose (15mg daily) of DHEA is applied directly on the breasts it would have similar effects to the much higher dose used by the study and applied to the back of the animals.
On a side note, Peat has written that development of cancer is almost always preceded by local tissue atrophy, and estrogenic activity in the local tissue. This is arguably especially true in the case of breast cancer. As you can see the authors agree with Peat and suggest that given the effects of DHEA on breast tissue atrophy and its mechanism of almost exclusive androgenicity it would be promising approach to implement for breast cancer treatment. Indirectly, they are also suggesting that other androgens like DHT would also be helpful. If prostate cancer is also estrogenically driven and the injections of testosterone into the prostate stopped terminal prostate cancer (as I posted in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=75&t=5579), then topical DHEA (in the pubic area or rectally) in small doses would also be a viable therapy for prostate cancer.

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/10.1210/ ... %3Dpubmed&

"...DHEA is a sex steroid precursor that is metabolized into active androgens and/or estrogens in peripheral intracrine tissues, depending upon the relative activities and types of steroidogenic enzymes expressed in each tissue and cell (31, 35). The mammary gland is likely to possess all the steroidogenic enzymatic systems necessary for the formation of androgens and estrogens from steroid precursors, such as DHEA (64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69). The complete reversal of the ovariectomy-induced mammary gland atrophy seen after DHEA treatment was characterized by a marked stimulation of the ductal and mainly the lobular structures. In addition, epithelial cell hypertrophy and a marked stimulation of secretory activity were seen, these effects being accompanied by the accumulation of clear and eosinophilic vacuoles in the cytoplasm of the acinar cells. As mentioned above, the above-indicated histological changes characterizing a rather lobuloalveolar type of development of the mammary gland, are analogous to those seen during pregnancy and lactation (14, 70)."


"...Nevertheless, although it is reported that androgens can stimulate lobuloalveolar growth, our study demonstrates for the first time the stimulatory androgenic-like effect of DHEA on the mammary gland, which not only resulted in a complete reversal of the ovariectomy-induced atrophic changes of the mammary gland but also led to a profuse lobuloalveolar development. In addition, we have also demonstrated the potent stimulatory effect of DHT, a nonaromatizable androgen on the growth of the rat mammary gland, thus indicating that the above-described effects are mediated through the androgen receptor. Furthermore, in the present study, the absence of a significant increase in serum PRL levels in DHEA-treated animals appears to exclude the possibility of a role of PRL in the major DHEA-induced histological changes. Following the combined administration of DHEA and EM-800 to OVX rats, the same lobuloalveolar pattern of development of the mammary gland was seen as that observed after treatment with DHEA alone, thus practically eliminating the role of estrogens in the action of DHEA. It is also important to mention that EM-800 does not have any effect on the mammary gland histopathology when given to OVX rats, as reported for the mouse by Luo et al. (39). The 250-μg daily dose of EM-800 used in the one shown in a series of preclinical pharmacological and toxicological (our unpublished observations) studies (37, 38, 39, 73) to exert maximal antiestrogenic activity."

"...In conclusion, the present study shows the potent stimulatory effects of androgens on lobuloalveolar as well as ductal development in the rat mammary gland. Furthermore, the histological changes of the mammary gland induced by DHEA treatment provide evidence for its intracrine conversion into active sex steroids with predominant or even possibly exclusive androgenic activity in the mammary gland. Local formation of androgens and estrogens through intracrine activity plays a major role in the pathophysiology of both normal and tumoral hormone-sensitive mammary tissue in the human. Considering the predominant androgenic action of DHEA on normal mammary tissue as well as the well recognized and potent inhibitory action of DHEA on the development and growth of DMBA-induced mammary tumors, which is mainly considered an androgenic effect, we suggest that tissue DHEA metabolism plays an important role in the pathophysiology of the mammary gland and could be a useful preventive and therapeutic approach for breast cancer."

https://mospace.umsystem.edu/xmlui/bitstream/handle/10355/53165/age000977.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y
"...Since 1 ug EB plus 3 mg of P stimulated DNA, these compounds were each injected at the 3 mg level (Table 27). These compounds increased the DNA over that produced by EB alone as follows: Pregnenolone 29.0 percent, 17ahydroxyprogesterone 26.5 percent, androstenedione 35.8 percent, and testosterone 33.0 percent."
 
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You don't happen to have a DHEA product available, by chance? :mrgreen:
 
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Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?
 
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Well yes, if you are a male that is :cool:
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
You don't happen to have a DHEA product available, by chance? :mrgreen:

No pure DHEA, but I see where you are going with this:):
If I release a topical DHEA-only it won't happen in the next few weeks. Still busy getting supplies for the combo product and the progesterone one.
 

haidut

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cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly. Just make sure you don't overdo it. Also, applying some on the pelvic area may benefits testicular function as opposed to targeting exclusively the penis.
 
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haidut said:
cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly.

What could be the mechanism for this?
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly.

What could be the mechanism for this?

Local conversion into DHT would be my first guess but other DHEA metabolites like androstenediol have also been shown to have this effect (in animals).
 
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haidut said:
Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly.

What could be the mechanism for this?

Local conversion into DHT would be my first guess but other DHEA metabolites like androstenediol have also been shown to have this effect (in animals).

You mean these things affect penis tissue growth?
 

Tarmander

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haidut said:
cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly. Just make sure you don't overdo it. Also, applying some on the pelvic area may benefits testicular function as opposed to targeting exclusively the penis.


By God man, your sitting on a gold mine! Do you sell Penis-mightiers or not?!
 
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Tarmander said:
By God man, your sitting on a gold mine! Do you sell Penis-mightiers or not?!

Shh you're going to get the entire Russian spambot market on us :mrgreen:
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
Such_Saturation said:
haidut said:
cantstoppeating said:
Is there any reason that DHEA could not be topically applied to the penis? If more growth occurs then great, otherwise it seems it's as good an application site as any other area of the body -- right?

Some people on the forum reported increase in penis length from topical application of a dhea + pregnenolone combo. So, if you are male I don't see a problem applying this to the penis directly.

What could be the mechanism for this?

Local conversion into DHT would be my first guess but other DHEA metabolites like androstenediol have also been shown to have this effect (in animals).

You mean these things affect penis tissue growth?

Oh, yeah, very much so, and even in females. Here are some things to consider.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11910204
"...BACKGROUND: Percutaneous administration of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) has been successful in promoting phallic growth in infants and children with 5 alpha-reductase deficiency raised as males. We investigated whether percutaneous administration of DHT is similarly effective in patients with micropenis due to alternative diagnoses.
METHODS: Six patients (age range 1.9-8.3 years) with micropenis of variable etiology were studied prospectively. 2.5% DHT gel was applied to the phallus once daily at a dose of 0.15-0.33 mg/kg body weight. Serum DHT concentrations were measured at 0, 2, 4, 8, 12 and 24 h following application of DHT gel.
RESULTS: Peak DHT concentrations were attained within 2-8 h after application of the gel and subsequently remained within the normal adult range in all but 1 patient, who had received the lowest dose of 0.15 mg/kg. An increase in phallic growth, ranging from 0.5-2.0 cm, was achieved after 3-4 months of treatment in all patients whose DHT concentrations were maintained within adult range.
CONCLUSION: Percutaneous administration of DHT in a dose of 0.2-0.3 mg/kg once daily for a period of 3-4 months may be useful in the management of patients with testosterone biosynthetic defects, who have sufficient masculinization to warrant male sex assignment, or in patients with micropenis prior to reconstructive surgery.


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21934102
"...The reproductive tracts from 24 treated and 13 control postpubertal female offspring were examined at 10 months of age. The ovaries, oviducts, and uteri were grossly and histologically normal in both TP- and DHT-exposed sheep. However, in the DHT-treated sheep, the uterus connected to a misshapen, saccular vagina that opened into the urethra; in the TP-treated sheep, it ended in a blind sac. In both TP- and DHT-treated sheep, the urethra was approximately 5 times longer than that of control sheep, and it resembled a male urethra with bilateral male accessory genital glands. The urethra terminated in a fully developed penis in both TP- and DHT-treated sheep, and a scrotal sac was present (without testes). These results show that prenatal exposure of female sheep to exogenous androgens results in masculinization of the tubular and external genitalia."


http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10932967
"...Transdermal DHT has also been reported to be effective in prepubertal children. Children with hypopituitarism and GH deficiency respond to appropriate hormonal therapy. Surgical correction is not indicated in the common endocrine types of micropenis. Many studies have shown that most testosterone treated children have satisfactory gain in length of penis and sexual function. Thus sexual reassignment is done very infrequently now."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22150386
"...Flutamide alone decreased penile length and weight significantly (p < 0.05), but it caused neither fat accumulation, nor affected fertility (80% vs. 87% in controls). Antide alone reduced penile length and weight significantly, and induced fat accumulation in 4/11 rats and infertility in 13/14 rats. Conversely, all 11 F + A-treated rats, similar to all nine DES-treated rats, had fat accumulation and loss of smooth muscle cells and cavernous spaces in the body of the penis and were infertile. In addition, reductions in penile length and weight were higher than in rats treated with F or A alone. DHT co-administration mitigated penile deformities in the DES group, but did not in the F + A group. Testicular testosterone was reduced by 70-95% at 7 or 12 days of age in all treated groups, except in the F group, which had threefold higher testosterone than controls. Collectively, data unequivocally show that reduced androgen production/action in the neonatal period, in the absence of oestrogen exposure, induces permanent infertility and malformed penis similar to that caused by oestrogen."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18353404
"...Gonadectomy completely suppressed MSB and induced a regression of penile spines. AD was more potent than T in restoring MSB, ejaculatory behavior being displayed by most castrated subjects with a lower dose of AD (50 microg/day) than of T (300 microg/day), and long intromissions being shown by all AD-treated castrated hamsters but only by 20% of T-treated ones, when doses of 1000 microg/day were given. DHT did not stimulate any copulatory response. The three androgens, even at the lowest dose, partially stimulated penis and penile epithelium growth, DHT showing the highest potency. Treatment of castrated hamsters with AD (50 microg/day), restored steroid levels to similar values as those of intact animals. These results show that AD and T restored MSB even with a partial stimulation of penile spines growth, AD being more potent than T. In contrast, DHT did not restore MSB in the hamster in spite of its peripheral androgenic potency."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375859
"...RESULTS: Serum T and DHT and intraprostatic DHT concentrations, erectile function, and mean weights of the corpus cavernosum and prostate were lowest in group 2. There was no significant difference in the serum T concentration and erectile function between groups 4 and 1. However, the serum and intraprostatic DHT concentrations were significantly lower in group 4 than in group 1 (both P < 0.001). The tissue weights of the corpus cavernosum and prostate were reduced by 25.9% and 92.3% in group 4 compared with group 1 (both P < 0.001). Histopathology revealed a significant atrophy of the prostate in groups 2 (castration) and 4 (finasterine). There was a significant decrease in the smooth muscle content in group 2, but not in groups 3 and 4.
CONCLUSIONS: In a rat model, finasteride treatment for 4 weeks reduces the weight of the corpus cavernosum but appears not to affect the erectile responses to electrical stimulation of the cavernous nerve. As erection is a complex process involving important signaling in the brain, further studies are necessary to demonstrate the long-term effects of finasteride on both central and peripheral neural pathways of erection.

Bottom line is this - if you are a male you better stay away from anything that is estrogenic or anti-adrogenic (especially the latter). Conversely, if you have a "size" problem down there things like DHT, DHEA, and androstenedione can help you look normal again. Finally, the rat study with androstenedione (AD), T and DHT showed that a human dose of as little as 3.5mg daily restored normal hormone levels of castrated male rats. Taking 5mg - 10mg DHEA daily will likely result in endogenous production of about 3mg AD (as a result of conversion) and thus be effective treatment for age- or disease-related hypogonadism.
 

Blinkyrocket

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How come all signs point to my having lots of androgens but I'm so dang freakin tired all the time.

Sorry for making it relatively obvious what I'm trying to brag about but this is actually a serious question -_-
 

haidut

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Such_Saturation said:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236322/ :ninja

So who's down to become the next Danny Roddy of male enhancement?

From your study:
"...Indeed, our animal study showed a dose-dependent stimulation for the penis weight, length, and width by testosterone (0–1.0 mg kg−1) treatment in castrated male SD rats (P < 0.05), while a higher dose of testosterone (5–50 mg kg−1) did not further increase these parameters (Figure ​Figure1a1a and ​1b1b)."

The testosterone was administered IP, which is akin to oral. So, no need for transdermal therapy in case somebody is afraid of applying mysterious substances to their precious stick. The effective doses are in the range of 1mg - 15mg for humans. Once again, the 15mg limit rears its head, just like DHEA. I guess higher doses of T raised estrogen, which was shown by the studies I posted to shorten penile length.
 

haidut

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Blinkyrocket said:
How come all signs point to my having lots of androgens but I'm so dang freakin tired all the time.

Sorry for making it relatively obvious what I'm trying to brag about but this is actually a serious question -_-

How do you know you have high androgens? Penis length could be due to high androgen exposure at or before birth, not current levels. Have you had saliva tests? They seem to show tissue levels better than blood.
 

Blinkyrocket

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haidut said:
Blinkyrocket said:
How come all signs point to my having lots of androgens but I'm so dang freakin tired all the time.

Sorry for making it relatively obvious what I'm trying to brag about but this is actually a serious question -_-

How do you know you have high androgens? Penis length could be due to high androgen exposure at or before birth, not current levels. Have you had saliva tests? They seem to show tissue levels better than blood.
I have no clue, I would think that my mental problems would be caused by high estrogen during birth and no I have not. I've got hairy legs and armpits which have been nicknamed "the black forests". Ray peat said something about early puberty being bad but I can't remember what it actually means, probably estrogen.
 

haidut

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Blinkyrocket said:
haidut said:
Blinkyrocket said:
How come all signs point to my having lots of androgens but I'm so dang freakin tired all the time.

Sorry for making it relatively obvious what I'm trying to brag about but this is actually a serious question -_-

How do you know you have high androgens? Penis length could be due to high androgen exposure at or before birth, not current levels. Have you had saliva tests? They seem to show tissue levels better than blood.
I have no clue, I would think that my mental problems would be caused by high estrogen during birth and no I have not. I've got hairy legs and armpits which have been nicknamed "the black forests". Ray peat said something about early puberty being bad but I can't remember what it actually means, probably estrogen.

Early puberty is usually due to stress - either of the mother while pregnant or the child at early age. If that is the case prolactin may be high, and it definitely affects fatigue. Have you had prolactin checked? Also, getting a saliva hormone test may not be a bad idea and it is relatively cheap.
Let's discuss in another thread.
 

Blinkyrocket

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haidut said:
Blinkyrocket said:
haidut said:
Blinkyrocket said:
How come all signs point to my having lots of androgens but I'm so dang freakin tired all the time.

Sorry for making it relatively obvious what I'm trying to brag about but this is actually a serious question -_-

How do you know you have high androgens? Penis length could be due to high androgen exposure at or before birth, not current levels. Have you had saliva tests? They seem to show tissue levels better than blood.
I have no clue, I would think that my mental problems would be caused by high estrogen during birth and no I have not. I've got hairy legs and armpits which have been nicknamed "the black forests". Ray peat said something about early puberty being bad but I can't remember what it actually means, probably estrogen.

Early puberty is usually due to stress - either of the mother while pregnant or the child at early age. If that is the case prolactin may be high, and it definitely affects fatigue. Have you had prolactin checked? Also, getting a saliva hormone test may not be a bad idea and it is relatively cheap.
Let's discuss in another thread.
Well, that's pretty much all I need to know unless you know that there's more I need to know, but if there isn't than there's no need for another thread.
 
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