The Ray Peat Mostly Liquid Diet?

[peatarian]

What is really striking to me,
as a result of reading your posts
and nwo2012's and Cliff's and others,
is just how big a Gap there can be between
1. interpretations or extrapolations of a Peat Diet based upon his books, articles, essays, and interviews,
(this is what I have been up to--because I've never communicated with Peat)
and
2. forming an idea of a Peat Diet based upon a number of private consultations with Peat.

One thing I wanted to quibble with a little bit:

Ray Peat says over and over and over again: He doesn't recommend special kinds of foods but rather eating all day. That is the 'secret' to keeping your metabolism up. He always eats or drinks something.

I couldn't really go that far.
Perhaps you will persuade me yet, peatarian!
But, seems to me that Peat is much more specific in his dietary suggestions
than saying to simply eat (whatever?) all day.
While he doesn't recommend many "special foods" in the sense of "exotic" foods,
he certainly has very strongly recommended foods
and very strongly unrecommended foods.
And his views of the rough ratios of food types to be consumed...
that seems very new, unusual, "special."

I guess another general take on your post would be
that it pushes me toward the view that Peat is much more accepting
of the "Peat favored" starches
than I have been interpreting/extrapolating from his published work.
Peat does indeed say a lot of bad things
about fiber and starch (the chemical or molecule or grain, I mean).
On the other hand...
...he didn't seem to blink an eye about your diet containing
pumpkin, parsnips, beets, sweet potato, turnips
(you told Peat all those were regular parts of your diet, right?).
And you say he called those foods "generally very healthy"
(now--just because it is something I've been trying to pin down--
is that what Peat said to you about those roots and starches in private
or is that a general statement he made in a published work?)

Many more gems I could respond to,
but...thanks again for the great info.

Actually many things have changed for me during the last years, too. My lifestyle changes while I learn more. I am re-reading Peats books and articles and find so much information that suddenly makes more sense than it did years ago when I started reading him to find a loophole that would safe my life. I started by reading Peat's books. (And came away with the thought he recommended whole milk and that you shouldn't heat cheese. Which both turned out to be wrong.) Then I went on to read his articles and I signed on to his newsletter. Last I started listening to all his interviews. But I have always been in contact with him and asked whenever I wasn't sure about something.

The beets I added very late because I heard him talk about them in an interview. Until that time I hadn't had any vegetables (apart from carotts). In another interview he said that tomatoes are healthy without the seeds. I had been avoiding tomatoes up to that point. For a while I hadn't used potatoes because of the starches until he said potatoes where 'high class protein'.

I will not be able to convince you that Ray Peat 'doesn't so much recommend special kinds of foods as he recommends eating all day long' because I don't believe it 100% myself. Of course he recommends special kinds of foods and will never recommend others. But the point he wants to make here, I think, is that you shouldn't starve yourself and only eat high class foods occasionally - but eat regularly even if sometimes the food isn't optimal. (Which to be honest I think it will never be.)

I know that it can be frustrating to not always know exactly what is good or bad. But that's why I emphasized not to reduce Ray Peat to a diet and not think of him as a nutritionist. If you understand the body it is much easier to deduce some things on your own. Reading him you see that even the so called bad things have some benefits sometimes. For instance many PUFA contain vitamins. And before you starve to death even the very worst Ray Peat foods will keep you alive for a while.

I find that many of the things he recommends for a healthy and fulfilled life have nothing to do with food. He thinks that you will not be able to live a good life unless you do something you consider useful, unless you feel valued and generally have intellectual nutrition, too. Meaning: learn something new, adjust to new situations. The way you think and what you think will alter the way you feel and will alter your body and your environment. (You know like the great quote: Ask a question, get an answer - be changed, be someone else.) For instance (because I am afraid I might sound too spiritual here): If you consider a stress situation to be inescapable you will produce serotonin with all its negative effects and it's cycle of stress hormones and degenerative processes. If you consider the same situation to be resolvable you will not produce serotonin. There is a whole section about envisioning things in one of the older articles. Fascinating stuff.
Then there is the social part of life and of course altitude and carbondioxide, avoiding x-rays and getting killed by doctors ... and many of the things he recommends (like salt or sugar) can erase or at least lighten the burden of bad foods.

Somewhere (I couldn't find it, it was in one of the newsletter and since they are on printed paper only, I cannot search in them) he writes that people who believe human beings to be nothing but cells, organized in systems, without a connection to what's going on in the brain and on an emotional level, will never understand anything about life.

To reduce these thought to a simple 'potatoes good, berries bad' seems to miss the most important part of the message.

I have to admit that I flinched when you mentioned the Ray Peat cookbook (although I know what you mean). I know that Ray Peat has little to no respect for people who write cookbooks with black and white sections for good and bad foods. There is a reason that his work explains a universe and doesn't plainly present you with a to-do and not-to-do-list.

Hope I am not frustrating you with my answer ...

 

[Birdie]

Just to mention one thing that occurred to me. Ray has pointed out that you can reduce stress in an inescapable situation. In an interview, he gave the example of the study where biting the stick reduced stress. Those rats who didn't bite, experienced stress. Those who bit a stick reduced stress.

Also, I have noticed in interviews that Ray almost never criticizes what someone is eating. He seems to, rather, say one little thing to each person. I think of the lady who told her story of woe with her son who poured sugar in his coffee, etc... She said she knew sugar was bad. Ray didn't correct her. He explained that craving sugar is often a sign of hypothyroidism. She ended up saying she'd tell him to check with his doctor. Ray let her go. That's how he does it. He doesn't detail a complete diet. He didn't ask if her son drank milk, drank oj... anything. Sure, he knows when somebody is more aware of his work than she was. But, even then, he doesn't stress himself by trying to correct every bit of somebody's food. Just my opinion.

 

[charlie]

I heard that interview. It is very interesting how he does interact with people.

 

[Birdie]

I heard that interview. It is very interesting how he does interact with people.

Charlie,
Yes, it is...

This is a great thread. I was a little confused until I got to the part where you said you were moving the Liquid question to another section.

 

[charlie]

Sorry about the confusion Birdie. This great discussion actually started inside another thread. It was taking over that thread, so I decided it better to split it off. :)

 

[peatarian]

Birdie: Yes, those were the first studies regarding serotonin. The rats that felt they could do something about their situation (biting their way free) didn't have a serotonin rush. The same thing happens in humans who think their stress situation is inescapable.

As for evaluating diets: I have noticed what you write about Ray Peat in interviews. I think that has to do with the complexity of the whole concept. He cannot begin to explain everything from scratch every time somebody asks if they are eating too much salt. But the first time I sent him my diet (very, very detailed!) he wrote in one sentence about the things which 'might not be helpful' -- about 60% of what I was eating and drinking. The other sentence was telling me about the deficiencies of the other 40% (not enough sugar, sat. fats, salt, calcium, magnesium ...).

He never suggested much (apart from OJ, Coca-Cola, liver and milk) but I sent him updates after 6 months and he always had something to say about the things he hadn't talked about before.

I think if you ask him about your cold hands and feet he will tell you, you might need thyroid. But if he sees that you have read his articles, knows you buy his newsletter and read his books -- he will not send you home with the abridged version of what he really thinks.

 

[narouz]

Also, I have noticed in interviews that Ray almost never criticizes what someone is eating. He seems to, rather, say one little thing to each person. I think of the lady who told her story of woe with her son who poured sugar in his coffee, etc... She said she knew sugar was bad. Ray didn't correct her. He explained that craving sugar is often a sign of hypothyroidism. She ended up saying she'd tell him to check with his doctor. Ray let her go. That's how he does it. He doesn't detail a complete diet. He didn't ask if her son drank milk, drank oj... anything. Sure, he knows when somebody is more aware of his work than she was. But, even then, he doesn't stress himself by trying to correct every bit of somebody's food. Just my opinion.

Birdie, this is a very interesting observation.

If one is trying to form an understanding of an optimal Peat diet,
is analysis of transcripts of Peat's private consultations
the most accurate methodology?

Maybe not.
They--reports on individual Peat consultations--are really interesting, to me, personally.
But, as you note, there may be shortcomings
in trying to extrapolate from them
a general, Optimal Peat Diet.

For one,
you note that Peat
"almost never criticizes what someone is eating."
Maybe this is because Dr. Peat is a very gentle and kind person?
Maybe he chooses his battles and avoids confrontations?
Maybe he prefers a spoonful of sugar to make the medicine go down?
Maybe he simply wants to avoid re-teaching his entire oeuvre over email or phone?
Maybe all of the above plus more?

For whatever reason,
if Peat is not likely to be critical in consultations,
well, consider some definitions of "critical":

--"Characterized by careful, exact evaluation and judgment"
--"exercising or involving careful judgment or judicious evaluation, as in critical thinking"

If Dr. Peat,
when in "consultation mode"
is not very critical...
is that the best mode
in which to study him for general nutrition ideas?
the best data to examine in order to accurately interpret his dietary thought?

Food for thought.
Thanks, Birdie.

 

[narouz]

I have to admit that I flinched when you mentioned the Ray Peat cookbook (although I know what you mean). I know that Ray Peat has little to no respect for people who write cookbooks with black and white sections for good and bad foods. There is a reason that his work explains a universe and doesn't plainly present you with a to-do and not-to-do-list.

Hope I am not frustrating you with my answer ...

peatarian--
Why would the prospect of a Peat cookbook make you "flinch"...?

 

[narouz]

I find that many of the things he recommends for a healthy and fulfilled life have nothing to do with food. He thinks that you will not be able to live a good life unless you do something you consider useful, unless you feel valued and generally have intellectual nutrition, too. Meaning: learn something new, adjust to new situations. The way you think and what you think will alter the way you feel and will alter your body and your environment. (You know like the great quote: Ask a question, get an answer - be changed, be someone else.) For instance (because I am afraid I might sound too spiritual here): If you consider a stress situation to be inescapable you will produce serotonin with all its negative effects and it's cycle of stress hormones and degenerative processes. If you consider the same situation to be resolvable you will not produce serotonin. There is a whole section about envisioning things in one of the older articles. Fascinating stuff.

I strongly agree with this, peatarian.
I would like to work myself up to starting a thread on those "non-nutritional" Peat aspects.

 

[narouz]

I know that it can be frustrating to not always know exactly what is good or bad. But that's why I emphasized not to reduce Ray Peat to a diet and not think of him as a nutritionist.

Peat is a Blakean scholar and an artist, has a doctorate in biology, and is a deep thinker--just for starters.
Also, by all accounts, he is a very generous and humane person.
But I must admit that I do also think of him
--probably even primarily so--
as a "nutritionist."
A very enlightened one,
very different from what is typically imagined in connection with the word.

But I agree completely about not reducing Peat to a diet.
That never occurred to me.
I appreciate his diverse genius.
To my mind, trying to generalize about his nutritional ideas
in terms of diet,
has nothing to do with reducing him.
I think you are not alone in that worry though.
Many Peatians don't want a Peat diet spoken of. :)

 

[narouz]

But the question is about the diet. The things I listed in an earlier post: liver, thymus gland, oysters, shellfish, codfish or sole, shrimp, potatoes, tomatoes without seed, pumpkins, ... were meant as 'besides milk, orange juice, coca-cola, coffee, eggs, fruit'. I forgot to mention roots: Parsnips, Beet, Sweet Potato, Turnips ... He calls them 'generally very healthy'.

So if you eat lamb on Monday, veal liver on Tuesday, Shellfish on Wednesday, Fish on Friday, roots broth on Saturday, thymus glad with potatoes on Sunday, next Friday shrimps or an omlett with well cooked pumpkin, a cheese plate with grains, a veal broth with bones, a lamb broth with bones, chicken broth (whole chicken), fried potatoes with tomatoes ... Do you really miss something there? I can assure you Ray Peat would not object as long as you didn't forget the milk and the orange juice. I usually have one or two eggs and some fruit in the mornings and lots of milk throughout the day.

peatarian, there has been so much interesting stuff in your recent posts
that I haven't had time to ask about a lot of stuff.

This is perhaps a bit quotidian,
but I am curious about some of the items on your diet.

1. thymus gland --what?
2. roots broth--why do you make that? Is it a Peat thing or...? What roots? Do you eat those roots?
3. veal broth w/ bones--so, do you just eat the broth and discard the meat?
How long do you cook it?
4. lamb broth--same question
5. chicken broth (whole chicken)--so, you do eat the whole chicken?

 

[narouz]

Yes exactly. When I asked him to critique my diet a few weeks ago with meat every night (alternating fish, chicken hearts, lambs brains, liver, ox kidney, beef, oysters+prawns) his main concern was I didnt have enough sugar due to eating more cheese than drinking milk. Since changed it to more milk. There were no concerns about too much meat.

nwo2012--
I keep thinking about some of the things on your diet.

1. chicken hearts: any reason you prefer these over other parts of the chicken?
How do you get them?
Anything special about the chickens they come from?

2. lambs brains: well, I'm game. How do you get that?
And again: any special reason for preferring that part of the lamb?

3. ox kidney: boy...I tried pork kidney a long, long time ago. Whoa.
But so...you like it?
Any reason for preferring that organ?
Anything special about the oxen it comes from ("organic" or whatever)

4. fish: Peat's picky about them.
What kind do you eat?

In general, I could dig that kind of diet.
How much of these flesh foods (guess we could call them that?)
do you eat?
I mean, could you give me some notion of the portion size?
Do you eat gelatin along with any of them?
Or coffee (to block iron absorption)?

 

[shaadoe]

I am curious as to the critique of your diet by Ray. Would you be willing to post your diet and his remarks? I believe that would be very helpful and insightful.

What where his remarks in regards to cheese? I was under the impression that cheese was an okay snack on its own and even remember him commenting that certain people required snacking of cheese hourly to keep blood sugar stable.

 

[cliff]

Are you sure he wasn't talking about milk? Cheese would probably lower blood sugar which is why he generally recommends consuming protein with sugar.

 

[narouz]

Just to mention one thing that occurred to me. Ray has pointed out that you can reduce stress in an inescapable situation. In an interview, he gave the example of the study where biting the stick reduced stress. Those rats who didn't bite, experienced stress. Those who bit a stick reduced stress.

Also, I have noticed in interviews that Ray almost never criticizes what someone is eating. He seems to, rather, say one little thing to each person. I think of the lady who told her story of woe with her son who poured sugar in his coffee, etc... She said she knew sugar was bad. Ray didn't correct her. He explained that craving sugar is often a sign of hypothyroidism. She ended up saying she'd tell him to check with his doctor. Ray let her go. That's how he does it. He doesn't detail a complete diet. He didn't ask if her son drank milk, drank oj... anything. Sure, he knows when somebody is more aware of his work than she was. But, even then, he doesn't stress himself by trying to correct every bit of somebody's food. Just my opinion.

Birdie--
Do you remember what interview that was?

 

[narouz]

But the question is about the diet. The things I listed in an earlier post: liver, thymus gland, oysters, shellfish, codfish or sole, shrimp, potatoes, tomatoes without seed, pumpkins, ... were meant as 'besides milk, orange juice, coca-cola, coffee, eggs, fruit'. I forgot to mention roots: Parsnips, Beet, Sweet Potato, Turnips ... He calls them 'generally very healthy'.
...
I can assure you Ray Peat would not object as long as you didn't forget the milk and the orange juice. I usually have one or two eggs and some fruit in the mornings and lots of milk throughout the day.
...

So stay away from PUFA, try to get saturated fats, drink enough milk, drink orange juice - but eat something, don't chastise yourself. That's the least Ray Peat would recommend.
You know, every now and then he eats bacon and other stuff. If he doesn't get the optimal food he used more aspirin.

peatarian--
you know, this is another easy-to-overlook thing in your chock-full post--
that the foods you mention,
largely including the starchy foods and meats,
are presented within your context of
"besides milk, orange juice, coca-cola, coffee, eggs, fruit."

Now, if that is the case,
and your portions/amounts of milk, OJ, fruits are pretty substantial,
then that probably doesn't leave a lot of room, literally,
for a whole lot of starches and meats.
Yes?

So those foods would be on the periphery of your diet...?

 

[gummybear]

Feels more like the single man diet, I cook very little now a days.

 

[narouz]

Feels more like the single man diet, I cook very little now a days.

gummybear--
Are you saying that's a good thing? :)

 

[gummybear]

Feels more like the single man diet, I cook very little now a days.

gummybear--
Are you saying that's a good thing? :)

Of course, more time to being awesome.

 

[narouz]

Feels more like the single man diet, I cook very little now a days.

gummybear--
Are you saying that's a good thing? :)

Of course, more time to being awesome.

Very good. Proceed. :)