Andrew Kim on Starches & Intuititive Eating

narouz

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"Regardless of which an individual chooses to eat, fruit or starches, each should be consumed in accordance with one's appetite, habits, stress, and physical activity level. I’ve found that eating no more than what's absolutely needed is easy and intuitive with fruit – but not with starches."
--Andrew Kim, from his blog

This interested me because of my long "grudge matches" :D
about
whether starches belong in an optimal (sorry again, Ray-Z! :D ) Peat diet
and
if eating a Ray Peat diet is easy and intuitive.

Many argue that the "Peat-approved" starches are fine--loosen up you old curmudgeon narouz! :D
And many argue that everything on the Peat diet tastes delicious,
while everything that is not on the Peat diet tastes repulsive. :lol:

Much food for thought in the article.
It focuses on a Dr. Salisbury who, back in the 19th century, was well onto the relationship
between undigestible food and disease.
http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2012/12/are-starches-safe-part-1.html
 

cliff

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It's a lot easier to over eat on dates than it is to over eat plain starch :)
 

narouz

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cliff said:
It's a lot easier to over eat on dates than it is to over eat plain starch :)

I've never known quite what to make of dates.
Mostly sugars?
Starch?
Good on Peat...?
And what were they before they shriveled and became dates?
Were they some kind of juicy fruit,
like grape-to-raisin,
or plums-to-prunes...?
 

cliff

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Dates are fine, mostly sugar.

I get fresh dates in california and they are extremely delicious, they are slightly moist and melt in your mouth. Sometimes the dried ones are ok but they are usually inferior, dates are already pretty dry tho because they grow in 120 degree weather.
 

narouz

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Well, A. Kim's personal experience about starches creating the desire (need?) to eat more starches...
it dovetails with Peat's view:
that starches increase the appetite and make you want more and more,
and (therefore) that starches can make you fat.

They are like cocaine writ small.
You know: the oft-noted experiment where, unique to cocaine,
monkeys kept on pulling the lever to dose themselves with with coke until they died.

Well. With starches you just get fat.
And then you die. :cool:
 

gretchen

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narouz said:
"Regardless of which an individual chooses to eat, fruit or starches, each should be consumed in accordance with one's appetite, habits, stress, and physical activity level. I’ve found that eating no more than what's absolutely needed is easy and intuitive with fruit – but not with starches."
--Andrew Kim, from his blog

This interested me because of my long "grudge matches" :D
about
whether starches belong in an optimal (sorry again, Ray-Z! :D ) Peat diet
and
if eating a Ray Peat diet is easy and intuitive.

Many argue that the "Peat-approved" starches are fine--loosen up you old curmudgeon narouz! :D
And many argue that everything on the Peat diet tastes delicious,
while everything that is not on the Peat diet tastes repulsive. :lol:

Much food for thought in the article.
It focuses on a Dr. Salisbury who, back in the 19th century, was well onto the relationship
between undigestible food and disease.
http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2012/12/are-starches-safe-part-1.html

I first noticed the problem with starches after going off a macrobiotic diet (I ate almost nothing but rice from '94-'96) and on to the Zone in the late 90s.

Rice gives me a blood sugar crash within an hour of eating; I think it could have to do with the lack of enzyme amylase Kim mentions.
 

kiran

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narouz said:
They are like cocaine writ small.
You know: the oft-noted experiment where, unique to cocaine,
monkeys kept on pulling the lever to dose themselves with with coke until they died.

Well, I think that was in mice. Plus the mice were probably bored, hence the binging on cocaine.
 

frustrated

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Kim is really great, but he has not come up with anything showing that starch raises LPS.
 

cliff

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Well anyone who has done a plain starch diet knows it is not addicting.

I don't think ray thinks plain starches will cause you to eat and eat. If he does he's wrong for most people in my experience. Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story.
 

gretchen

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cliff said:
Well anyone who has done a plain starch diet knows it is not addicting.

I don't think ray thinks plain starches will cause you to eat and eat. If he does he's wrong for most people in my experience. Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story.

I ate and ate the years I did macrobiotics.
 

narouz

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cliff said:
Well anyone who has done a plain starch diet knows it is not addicting.

I don't think ray thinks plain starches will cause you to eat and eat. If he does he's wrong for most people in my experience. Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story.

"Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story."
Therein lies the rub, perhaps.
Who eats starches without those things?

Peat does say that eating starches increases appetite.
And he says that starch is more likely to be converted to fat than sugars.

Not that everything Peat says must be accepted as The Infallible Holy Truth... :)

I actually tend to go along with you, Cliff,
in that I think eating a little of the good Peat starches correctly prepared
isn't gonna cause much of a problem if the diet is otherwise good.

But here's the thing:
if we Start Off by saying: starches are fine!
And then go from there,
and end up eating a Starch Centered diet...
well...I bet that would be bad.
And I'm pretty sure Peat would think it would be unhealthy.
Just for starters:
if one is filling up one's stomach all day mostly with starches--
even setting aside the bad stuff starch is said to potentially do--
one is supplanting good foods and nutrients for empty (at best) starches.
 

cliff

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When he say's that it's more in reference to when glucose oxidation is being blocked by anti-metabolic substances, in this case fructose is better.

You have to take it all in context, some of the stuff peat alludes to being bad are perfectly fine if you eat the proper diet.

The main problem with starch imo is that it's harder to digest than pure sugar, strained juice, ripe fruits, honey etc.
 

pboy

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I agree with Cliff, its not that hard to understand....starches are just simply harder to digest, take more time to eat/chew, and take more time more preparation to eat
than fruits and sugars.
If properly prepared and chewed they are pretty much the exact same as sugars in the body, its just a matter of that:...making them digestible,
then having a bit more focus on them as you eat them, whereas with fruit juice and sugar you can pretty much just buy it, open it/peel it and drink down without much or any dissolving or chewing necessary.
Most of the starches people eat are not fresh, so therefore have crystallized components in them and are harder to digest as such, and with most people's hectic lifestyles they don't really chew their food or focus on it as they eat it or are talking the whole time. Try it on yourself, if you hold a freshly prepared starch, like mashed potato,
in your mouth for and start chewing for just a second or two you can feel it disperse with the saliva and split almost immediately. Start chewing shelf bought bread or pasta and it takes like 15 seconds or more to actually get the whole bolus to mix with saliva and dissolve because of their inherent structure, chewiness and dryness. Grinding and taking in starches fresh, warm, and moist makes them almost the same as sugars in terms of ease of eating and digestion, especially if they are refined/peeled. (Think a fresh masa tamale or mashed potato still steaming, as opposed to dried granola or whole wheat bread)
 

narouz

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Kelly said:
Potatoes are far from "empty (at best) starches".

Yes, you're right.
Still, I would have to say that I would worry, personally,
if I were on a potato-centered diet.
 

narouz

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Ray Peat in
"Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones"
http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml


"The starch-based diet, emphasizing grains, beans, nuts, and vegetables, has been promoted with a variety of justifications. When people are urged to reduce their fat and sugar consumption, they are told to eat more starch. Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins. It is often associated with allergens, and according to Gerhard Volkheimer, whole starch grains can be "persorbed" from the intestine directly into the blood stream where they may block arterioles, causing widely distributed nests of cell-death. I have heard dietitians urge the use of "complex carbohydrates" (starch) instead of sugar. In the first physiology lab I took, we fed rats a large blob of moist cornstarch with a stomach tube, and then after waiting a few minutes, were told to dissect the rat to find out "how far the starch had gone." In such a short time, we were surprised to find that not a trace of the starch could be found. The professor's purpose was to impress us with the rapidity with which starch is digested and absorbed. Various studies have demonstrated that starch (composed of pure glucose) raises blood glucose more quickly than sucrose (half fructose, half glucose) does. The sudden increase of blood glucose is sometimes thought to contribute to the development of diabetes, but if it does, it is probably mediated by fat metabolism and the hormones other than just insulin."
 

narouz

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From an interview called "Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in context!"
by Josh Jeanne Rubin
http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context

Some bits on starch.
Peat says:

"For example, young turnips and young potatoes
that have not maximized their starch production,
eaten with butter,
after being thoroughly cooked,
are pretty safe."

Let's pause there a sec and just consider
before going futher
the fairly intense qualifications and caveats
Peat has mentioned already:

-he doesn't sweepingly include All root vegetables or All starches
-he notes the potatoes and turnips should be "young," before they can
"maximize their starch production"
-he says they should be "thoroughly cooked" (and by this I believe Peat means over 40 minutes)
-he says they should be eaten with butter
-and after all those steps and qualifier he says they will be "pretty safe"
(not, perhaps, the most ringing endorsement).

Focusing in on potatoes (around the 46 minute point)
Peat says that "potatoes are almost unique among the plant materials":

"The liquid part of the potato, in between the starch grains...
has the equivalent of amino acids, besides some proteins.
These are the keto acids, which can be used by the brain and heart
as a substitute for sugar or fatty acids and are really an ideal
anti-stress fuel and can instantly turn into amino acids as needed.
And so, apart from the starch, the potato is an amazing food."


If you have ever made Ray Peat Potato Extract
you see, dramatically, how much of the potato is starch and fiber.
Once you peel them,
juice them and throw away the fiber,
then let the starch settle and remove it...
there's not a whole lot left.

And this is the Holy Potato, the King of the so-called Peat Safe Starches.
 

narouz

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"Per calorie, sugar is less fattening than starch, partly because it stimulates less insulin, and, when it's used with a good diet, because it increases the activity of thyroid hormone."
-Dr. Ray Peat
 

narouz

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Peat on starch, sugars, and fat storage:

"Starch and glucose efficiently stimulate insulin secretion, and that accelerates the disposition of glucose, activating its conversion to glycogen and fat, as well as its oxidation. Fructose inhibits the stimulation of insulin by glucose, so this means that eating ordinary sugar, sucrose (a disaccharide, consisting of glucose and fructose), in place of starch, will reduce the tendency to store fat."
--Ray Peat

Peat said this about the shape of a metabolism-protective diet:

“This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption. In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements. It should be remembered that amino acids, especially in eggs, stimulate insulin secretion, and that this can cause hypoglycemia, which in turn causes cortisol secretion. Eating fruit (or other carbohydrate), coconut oil, and salt at the same meal will decrease this effect of the protein. Magnesium carbonate and epsom salts can also be useful and safe supplements, except when the synthetic material causes an allergic bowel reaction.” -Ray Peat, PhD

Regarding the quote above:
notice the appropriate place of starch in Peat's view of a metabolism-protective diet.
Generally, Peat says that place would be "moderate to low."
And "in practice" and in addressing what the "major part of the diet" should be:
starch is not mentioned.

from "Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context" by Dr. Peat:

“Eating “complex carbohydrates,” rather than sugars, is a reasonable way to promote obesity. Eating starch, by increasing insulin and lowering the blood sugar, stimulates the appetite, causing a person to eat more, so the effect on fat production becomes much larger than when equal amounts of sugar and starch are eaten. The obesity itself then becomes an additional physiological factor; the fat cells create something analogous to an inflammatory state. There isn’t anything wrong with a high carbohydrate diet, and even a high starch diet isn’t necessarily incompatible with good health, but when better foods are available they should be used instead of starches.”-Ray Peat
 

pboy

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So basically starch (glucose) stimulates your body to burn more AND store more sugar, whereas
Sugar(fructose) provides less insulin spikes, therefore lessening your bodies ability to burn and store the sugar

So glucose is more efficient as long as you don't over eat it where as fructose can more safely be overeaten without consequences (well, still consequences, just weight gain
not likely being one of them)

From my personal experience, overeating starches tends to make me feel a little heavier and lethargic but also very satiated and calm and I sleep well
whereas overeating fruit / sugar makes me feel bloated, waterlogged, mentally foggy, gives diarreah and water retention, and I cant sleep as well

I think what is happening is that excess glucose still gets absorbed through the gut and is processed by generating more metabolism and storing any excess
With fructose, excess doesn't get absorbed as easily or at all so it stays in the gut (and holds water like a sponge, sugar being hydrophilic, hence the water retention and diarreah)
some of it being fermented in the bowel also causing the gas and bloating...but also since it isn't absorbed you wont tend gain weight. If excess fructose is absorbed (either directly through the gut or after being converted to short chain fatty acids in the bowel) it is likely to be in a form of a ketone (SFA or converted to ketone by liver) which cannot be stored but in excess will cause more mineral depletion, burning urine, dehydration (acid conditions, similar to alcohol excess)

Anecdotal, but this is generally what I follow
 
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