Andrew Kim on Starches & Intuititive Eating

Discussion in 'Starches, Fiber, Legumes' started by narouz, Feb 11, 2013.

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  1. narouz

    narouz Member

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    This interested me because of my long "grudge matches" :D
    about
    whether starches belong in an optimal (sorry again, Ray-Z! :D ) Peat diet
    and
    if eating a Ray Peat diet is easy and intuitive.

    Many argue that the "Peat-approved" starches are fine--loosen up you old curmudgeon narouz! :D
    And many argue that everything on the Peat diet tastes delicious,
    while everything that is not on the Peat diet tastes repulsive. :lol:

    Much food for thought in the article.
    It focuses on a Dr. Salisbury who, back in the 19th century, was well onto the relationship
    between undigestible food and disease.
    http://www.andrewkimblog.com/2012/12/are-starches-safe-part-1.html
     
  2. cliff

    cliff Member

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    It's a lot easier to over eat on dates than it is to over eat plain starch :)
     
  3. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    I've never known quite what to make of dates.
    Mostly sugars?
    Starch?
    Good on Peat...?
    And what were they before they shriveled and became dates?
    Were they some kind of juicy fruit,
    like grape-to-raisin,
    or plums-to-prunes...?
     
  4. cliff

    cliff Member

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    Dates are fine, mostly sugar.

    I get fresh dates in california and they are extremely delicious, they are slightly moist and melt in your mouth. Sometimes the dried ones are ok but they are usually inferior, dates are already pretty dry tho because they grow in 120 degree weather.
     
  5. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Well, A. Kim's personal experience about starches creating the desire (need?) to eat more starches...
    it dovetails with Peat's view:
    that starches increase the appetite and make you want more and more,
    and (therefore) that starches can make you fat.

    They are like cocaine writ small.
    You know: the oft-noted experiment where, unique to cocaine,
    monkeys kept on pulling the lever to dose themselves with with coke until they died.

    Well. With starches you just get fat.
    And then you die. :cool:
     
  6. gretchen

    gretchen Member

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    I first noticed the problem with starches after going off a macrobiotic diet (I ate almost nothing but rice from '94-'96) and on to the Zone in the late 90s.

    Rice gives me a blood sugar crash within an hour of eating; I think it could have to do with the lack of enzyme amylase Kim mentions.
     
  7. kiran

    kiran Member

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    Well, I think that was in mice. Plus the mice were probably bored, hence the binging on cocaine.
     
  8. frustrated

    frustrated Member

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    Kim is really great, but he has not come up with anything showing that starch raises LPS.
     
  9. cliff

    cliff Member

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    Well anyone who has done a plain starch diet knows it is not addicting.

    I don't think ray thinks plain starches will cause you to eat and eat. If he does he's wrong for most people in my experience. Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story.
     
  10. gretchen

    gretchen Member

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    I ate and ate the years I did macrobiotics.
     
  11. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    "Add some fat, salt and spices to them and that's a different story."
    Therein lies the rub, perhaps.
    Who eats starches without those things?

    Peat does say that eating starches increases appetite.
    And he says that starch is more likely to be converted to fat than sugars.

    Not that everything Peat says must be accepted as The Infallible Holy Truth... :)

    I actually tend to go along with you, Cliff,
    in that I think eating a little of the good Peat starches correctly prepared
    isn't gonna cause much of a problem if the diet is otherwise good.

    But here's the thing:
    if we Start Off by saying: starches are fine!
    And then go from there,
    and end up eating a Starch Centered diet...
    well...I bet that would be bad.
    And I'm pretty sure Peat would think it would be unhealthy.
    Just for starters:
    if one is filling up one's stomach all day mostly with starches--
    even setting aside the bad stuff starch is said to potentially do--
    one is supplanting good foods and nutrients for empty (at best) starches.
     
  12. cliff

    cliff Member

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    When he say's that it's more in reference to when glucose oxidation is being blocked by anti-metabolic substances, in this case fructose is better.

    You have to take it all in context, some of the stuff peat alludes to being bad are perfectly fine if you eat the proper diet.

    The main problem with starch imo is that it's harder to digest than pure sugar, strained juice, ripe fruits, honey etc.
     
  13. Kelly

    Kelly Member

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    Potatoes are far from "empty (at best) starches".
     
  14. pboy

    pboy Member

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    I agree with Cliff, its not that hard to understand....starches are just simply harder to digest, take more time to eat/chew, and take more time more preparation to eat
    than fruits and sugars.
    If properly prepared and chewed they are pretty much the exact same as sugars in the body, its just a matter of that:...making them digestible,
    then having a bit more focus on them as you eat them, whereas with fruit juice and sugar you can pretty much just buy it, open it/peel it and drink down without much or any dissolving or chewing necessary.
    Most of the starches people eat are not fresh, so therefore have crystallized components in them and are harder to digest as such, and with most people's hectic lifestyles they don't really chew their food or focus on it as they eat it or are talking the whole time. Try it on yourself, if you hold a freshly prepared starch, like mashed potato,
    in your mouth for and start chewing for just a second or two you can feel it disperse with the saliva and split almost immediately. Start chewing shelf bought bread or pasta and it takes like 15 seconds or more to actually get the whole bolus to mix with saliva and dissolve because of their inherent structure, chewiness and dryness. Grinding and taking in starches fresh, warm, and moist makes them almost the same as sugars in terms of ease of eating and digestion, especially if they are refined/peeled. (Think a fresh masa tamale or mashed potato still steaming, as opposed to dried granola or whole wheat bread)
     
  15. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Yes, you're right.
    Still, I would have to say that I would worry, personally,
    if I were on a potato-centered diet.
     
  16. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Ray Peat in
    "Diabetes, Scleroderma, Oils and Hormones"
    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/diabetes.shtml


    "The starch-based diet, emphasizing grains, beans, nuts, and vegetables, has been promoted with a variety of justifications. When people are urged to reduce their fat and sugar consumption, they are told to eat more starch. Starch stimulates the appetite, promotes fat synthesis by stimulating insulin secretion, and sometimes increases the growth of bacteria that produce toxins. It is often associated with allergens, and according to Gerhard Volkheimer, whole starch grains can be "persorbed" from the intestine directly into the blood stream where they may block arterioles, causing widely distributed nests of cell-death. I have heard dietitians urge the use of "complex carbohydrates" (starch) instead of sugar. In the first physiology lab I took, we fed rats a large blob of moist cornstarch with a stomach tube, and then after waiting a few minutes, were told to dissect the rat to find out "how far the starch had gone." In such a short time, we were surprised to find that not a trace of the starch could be found. The professor's purpose was to impress us with the rapidity with which starch is digested and absorbed. Various studies have demonstrated that starch (composed of pure glucose) raises blood glucose more quickly than sucrose (half fructose, half glucose) does. The sudden increase of blood glucose is sometimes thought to contribute to the development of diabetes, but if it does, it is probably mediated by fat metabolism and the hormones other than just insulin."
     
  17. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    From an interview called "Dr. Ray Peat: Glycemia, Starch and SUGAR in context!"
    by Josh Jeanne Rubin
    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/eastwesthe ... in-context

    Some bits on starch.
    Peat says:

    Let's pause there a sec and just consider
    before going futher
    the fairly intense qualifications and caveats
    Peat has mentioned already:

    -he doesn't sweepingly include All root vegetables or All starches
    -he notes the potatoes and turnips should be "young," before they can
    "maximize their starch production"
    -he says they should be "thoroughly cooked" (and by this I believe Peat means over 40 minutes)
    -he says they should be eaten with butter
    -and after all those steps and qualifier he says they will be "pretty safe"
    (not, perhaps, the most ringing endorsement).

    Focusing in on potatoes (around the 46 minute point)
    Peat says that "potatoes are almost unique among the plant materials":

    "The liquid part of the potato, in between the starch grains...
    has the equivalent of amino acids, besides some proteins.
    These are the keto acids, which can be used by the brain and heart
    as a substitute for sugar or fatty acids and are really an ideal
    anti-stress fuel and can instantly turn into amino acids as needed.
    And so, apart from the starch, the potato is an amazing food."


    If you have ever made Ray Peat Potato Extract
    you see, dramatically, how much of the potato is starch and fiber.
    Once you peel them,
    juice them and throw away the fiber,
    then let the starch settle and remove it...
    there's not a whole lot left.

    And this is the Holy Potato, the King of the so-called Peat Safe Starches.
     
  18. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    -Dr. Ray Peat
     
  19. OP
    narouz

    narouz Member

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    Peat on starch, sugars, and fat storage:

    Peat said this about the shape of a metabolism-protective diet:

    Regarding the quote above:
    notice the appropriate place of starch in Peat's view of a metabolism-protective diet.
    Generally, Peat says that place would be "moderate to low."
    And "in practice" and in addressing what the "major part of the diet" should be:
    starch is not mentioned.

    from "Glycemia, Starch, and Sugar in Context" by Dr. Peat:

     
  20. pboy

    pboy Member

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    So basically starch (glucose) stimulates your body to burn more AND store more sugar, whereas
    Sugar(fructose) provides less insulin spikes, therefore lessening your bodies ability to burn and store the sugar

    So glucose is more efficient as long as you don't over eat it where as fructose can more safely be overeaten without consequences (well, still consequences, just weight gain
    not likely being one of them)

    From my personal experience, overeating starches tends to make me feel a little heavier and lethargic but also very satiated and calm and I sleep well
    whereas overeating fruit / sugar makes me feel bloated, waterlogged, mentally foggy, gives diarreah and water retention, and I cant sleep as well

    I think what is happening is that excess glucose still gets absorbed through the gut and is processed by generating more metabolism and storing any excess
    With fructose, excess doesn't get absorbed as easily or at all so it stays in the gut (and holds water like a sponge, sugar being hydrophilic, hence the water retention and diarreah)
    some of it being fermented in the bowel also causing the gas and bloating...but also since it isn't absorbed you wont tend gain weight. If excess fructose is absorbed (either directly through the gut or after being converted to short chain fatty acids in the bowel) it is likely to be in a form of a ketone (SFA or converted to ketone by liver) which cannot be stored but in excess will cause more mineral depletion, burning urine, dehydration (acid conditions, similar to alcohol excess)

    Anecdotal, but this is generally what I follow
     
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