Diversity In Diet May Be Hurting Us All

[Zachs]

post 117100 Sure, most long lived, tribal peoples ate a very consistent diet, and many sick Americans eat something different every night of the week. However a big part of that consistent diet was the fact that freshness could not be maintained for very long. Yet in "civilization," you can get a frozen Indian dinner, a frozen Italian dinner, and a frozen Mexican dinner that will sit in your freezer for six months and come out right as rain.

I think the freshness made more of a difference then the consistency. I actually find eating something occasionally different, as long as it is fresh, makes me feel better. It just doesn't make sense to me that if someone living in Asia on Rice all of a sudden moved to Africa and lived on Milk would have their health tank. Sure maybe there is an adjustment period, but in my mind the freshness in both diets would be the important factor.

One of my thoughts on that subject is that a really varied diet calls for a varied gut biome. We're as a simple diet of one main starch allows a few bacteria to become dominate. In the first instance, a varied biome would allow competition from bad bacteria, on a simple diet, the dominate strains could keep bacteria in check. Just an idea.

 

[nikotrope]

Rice is/was the primary food in large parts of Asia because of economics. It was what people could afford. The Japanese navy in the 19th century solved the disease of beriberi by adopting a more varied diet for their sailors, which had been based primarily on rice.

Sailors were giving white rice for free, everything else they had to pay for it and most couldn't afford it. beriberi (severe thiamine deficiency) has been fixed with one simple addition: millet. I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect.

 

[Matt1951]

post 117124

Rice is/was the primary food in large parts of Asia because of economics. It was what people could afford. The Japanese navy in the 19th century solved the disease of beriberi by adopting a more varied diet for their sailors, which had been based primarily on rice.

Sailors were giving white rice for free, everything else they had to pay for it and most couldn't afford it. beriberi (severe thiamine deficiency) has been fixed with one simple addition: millet. I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect.

The Japanese Navy solved the problem with a more varied diet. Yes it is possible to use brown rice or to use sprayed on vitamins to solve beri-beri, but nutrition would still have been very poor.
Japan today emphasis the importance of a varied diet. Japan, at the government level, recommends a varied diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

"In the late 19th century, beriberi was studied by Takaki Kanehiro, a British-trained Japanese medical doctor of the Japanese Navy.[25] Beriberi was a serious problem in the Japanese navy: sailors fell ill an average of four times a year in the period 1878 to 1881, and 35% were cases of beriberi.[25] In 1883, Kanehiro learned of a very high incidence of beriberi among cadets on a training mission from Japan to Hawaii, via New Zealand and South America. The voyage lasted more than 9 months and resulted in 169 cases of sickness and 25 deaths on a ship of 376 men. With the support of the Japanese Navy, he conducted an experiment in which another ship was deployed on the same route, except that its crew was fed a diet of meat, fish, barley, rice, and beans. At the end of the voyage, this crew had only 14 cases of beriberi and no deaths. This convinced Kanehiro and the Japanese Navy that diet was the cause.[25] In 1884, Kanehiro observed that beriberi was endemic among low-ranking crew who were often provided free rice and thus ate little else, but not among crews of Western navies and nor among Japanese officers who consumed a more varied diet."

 

[tara]

post 117060 Is this true for white rice everywhere?

Lots of people cook white rice with just water and often salt.

post 117083 Potassium is important for example, but one can water fast for up to two months with no potassium intake, yet the RDA is around 5k mg's a day.

Maybe some people manage this, but I think it's risky from the potasium PoV - I think some people would get into dangerous potasium deficit in less than 2 mths. Probably depends on how replete one's mineral stores are before starting, as well as who well one retains them.

Most people who have been around for 90+ years built their health without much PUFA and on crops growing on richer soils than are now common.

I think there's a case for some variety - not switching between PUFA laden commercial meals inspired by cultures from various continents, but by eating a larger number of species, including seafood - because it likely gives a better chance of covering all one's micronutrient needs, and also may reduce the risk of becoming intolerant to particular foods one eats all the time.
I don't think this precludes also having a vary small number of safish staples that one eats a lot of every day - eg rice or potatoes if these work well for someone.

 

[nikotrope]

post 117137

post 117124

Rice is/was the primary food in large parts of Asia because of economics. It was what people could afford. The Japanese navy in the 19th century solved the disease of beriberi by adopting a more varied diet for their sailors, which had been based primarily on rice.

Sailors were giving white rice for free, everything else they had to pay for it and most couldn't afford it. beriberi (severe thiamine deficiency) has been fixed with one simple addition: millet. I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect.

The Japanese Navy solved the problem with a more varied diet. Yes it is possible to use brown rice or to use sprayed on vitamins to solve beri-beri, but nutrition would still have been very poor.
Japan today emphasis the importance of a varied diet. Japan, at the government level, recommends a varied diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

"In the late 19th century, beriberi was studied by Takaki Kanehiro, a British-trained Japanese medical doctor of the Japanese Navy.[25] Beriberi was a serious problem in the Japanese navy: sailors fell ill an average of four times a year in the period 1878 to 1881, and 35% were cases of beriberi.[25] In 1883, Kanehiro learned of a very high incidence of beriberi among cadets on a training mission from Japan to Hawaii, via New Zealand and South America. The voyage lasted more than 9 months and resulted in 169 cases of sickness and 25 deaths on a ship of 376 men. With the support of the Japanese Navy, he conducted an experiment in which another ship was deployed on the same route, except that its crew was fed a diet of meat, fish, barley, rice, and beans. At the end of the voyage, this crew had only 14 cases of beriberi and no deaths. This convinced Kanehiro and the Japanese Navy that diet was the cause.[25] In 1884, Kanehiro observed that beriberi was endemic among low-ranking crew who were often provided free rice and thus ate little else, but not among crews of Western navies and nor among Japanese officers who consumed a more varied diet."

You are extrapolating, it is not saying how the Japanese Navy solved the problem, only the experiment that made Kanehiro realized how to prevent beriberi. My source: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/eating ... .4ebrogx3c

"In March 1885, he [Kanehiro] instituted his solution—protein-rich barley mixed with rice." it was barley not millet, i didn't remember the article correctly.

I'm not saying a varied diet isn't good, just that your example was not correct. And by the way, SAD is a varied diet, yet it isn't a good diet. I live in Japan and I know what they are recommending, like avoiding excess salt......

 

[ecstatichamster]

for eating foods all the time and becoming intolerant, there is also, it seems to me, a tolerance we BUILD to foods we eat all the time, even inflammatory foods. To some degree.

I find tomatoes, eggplant, peppers, beans, and lentils irritating and inflammatory but I ate them for years without realizing it. Now that I don't eat them so much, when I do, I feel an immediate reaction.

I think eating the same or similar foods on a daily basis can also suppress intolerance.

 

[Matt1951]

post 117149

post 117137

post 117124

Rice is/was the primary food in large parts of Asia because of economics. It was what people could afford. The Japanese navy in the 19th century solved the disease of beriberi by adopting a more varied diet for their sailors, which had been based primarily on rice.

Sailors were giving white rice for free, everything else they had to pay for it and most couldn't afford it. beriberi (severe thiamine deficiency) has been fixed with one simple addition: millet. I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect.

The Japanese Navy solved the problem with a more varied diet. Yes it is possible to use brown rice or to use sprayed on vitamins to solve beri-beri, but nutrition would still have been very poor.
Japan today emphasis the importance of a varied diet. Japan, at the government level, recommends a varied diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

"In the late 19th century, beriberi was studied by Takaki Kanehiro, a British-trained Japanese medical doctor of the Japanese Navy.[25] Beriberi was a serious problem in the Japanese navy: sailors fell ill an average of four times a year in the period 1878 to 1881, and 35% were cases of beriberi.[25] In 1883, Kanehiro learned of a very high incidence of beriberi among cadets on a training mission from Japan to Hawaii, via New Zealand and South America. The voyage lasted more than 9 months and resulted in 169 cases of sickness and 25 deaths on a ship of 376 men. With the support of the Japanese Navy, he conducted an experiment in which another ship was deployed on the same route, except that its crew was fed a diet of meat, fish, barley, rice, and beans. At the end of the voyage, this crew had only 14 cases of beriberi and no deaths. This convinced Kanehiro and the Japanese Navy that diet was the cause.[25] In 1884, Kanehiro observed that beriberi was endemic among low-ranking crew who were often provided free rice and thus ate little else, but not among crews of Western navies and nor among Japanese officers who consumed a more varied diet."

You are extrapolating, it is not saying how the Japanese Navy solved the problem, only the experiment that made Kanehiro realized how to prevent beriberi. My source: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/eating ... .4ebrogx3c

"In March 1885, he [Kanehiro] instituted his solution—protein-rich barley mixed with rice." it was barley not millet, i didn't remember the article correctly.

I'm not saying a varied diet isn't good, just that your example was not correct. And by the way, SAD is a varied diet, yet it isn't a good diet. I live in Japan and I know what they are recommending, like avoiding excess salt......

Even adding barley to rice is more varied than just eating rice. From your referenced article, it seems Dr Kanehiro preferred a better diet for the sailors, but the Japanese Navy wanted to save money. From the title of your referenced article "Eating too much rice almost sank the Japanese Navy", do we conclude eating too much rice was a problem? And can we conclude the Navy was primarily supplying only rice to its sailors, to save money? Rice was low cost, that is why the sailors were eating mostly rice, as the Navy did not want to pay for more expensive meat and fish. Not that eating primarily rice provided superior health or longevity.
You previously stated the diet was not more varied because beriberi could have been solved by eating brown rice: " I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect." But brown rice was not their solution, and the diet was made more varied. Not as varied as Dr Kanehiro preferred, but more varied than what the sailors had previously.

 

[Matt1951]

Stating that the SAD is a varied diet really depends on income level. Lower income Americans get a surprising amount of their calories from PUFA such as corn oil and soybean oil; and wheat flour, and HFCS. Some school lunches are absolutely awful. Wonder why we have an obesity problem?
Fresh produce and meat becomes more available as people achieve increased incomes.

 

[Strongbad]

I'm not well-versed in Japanese diet except Okinawan diet, but I assume the younger Japanese consume different type of food than the older counterpart? Maybe more western food? Even Okinawan diet is vastly different than the rest of Japan, with high emphasis on potatoes.

I won't worry much about Potassium depletion. Consuming 1 or 2 potatoes per week would do the trick.

 

[nikotrope]

post 117179 I'm not well-versed in Japanese diet except Okinawan diet, but I assume the younger Japanese consume different type of food than the older counterpart? Maybe more western food? Even Okinawan diet is vastly different than the rest of Japan, with high emphasis on potatoes.

I won't worry much about Potassium depletion. Consuming 1 or 2 potatoes per week would do the trick.

There's a lot of fried food in Japan (far more than France where I come from) but there's also a lot of cheap bentos which are generally low-fat with plenty of rice and meat/seafood in moderation. I don't find recent information about obesity in the country but IMO there are more overweight people between 10 and 40 than 40 and 60. It's still far less than other countries but there's an unhealthy pressure to stay slim and I know many people wrecking their health with diets.

 

[ecstatichamster]

One thing I notice in Japan with the old people is that they are thin and lean, but they often seem to be hunched over. I believe their osteoporosis rates are high among older folks.

 

[Zachs]

post 117171

post 117149

post 117137

post 117124

Rice is/was the primary food in large parts of Asia because of economics. It was what people could afford. The Japanese navy in the 19th century solved the disease of beriberi by adopting a more varied diet for their sailors, which had been based primarily on rice.

Sailors were giving white rice for free, everything else they had to pay for it and most couldn't afford it. beriberi (severe thiamine deficiency) has been fixed with one simple addition: millet. I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect.

The Japanese Navy solved the problem with a more varied diet. Yes it is possible to use brown rice or to use sprayed on vitamins to solve beri-beri, but nutrition would still have been very poor.
Japan today emphasis the importance of a varied diet. Japan, at the government level, recommends a varied diet.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beriberi

"In the late 19th century, beriberi was studied by Takaki Kanehiro, a British-trained Japanese medical doctor of the Japanese Navy.[25] Beriberi was a serious problem in the Japanese navy: sailors fell ill an average of four times a year in the period 1878 to 1881, and 35% were cases of beriberi.[25] In 1883, Kanehiro learned of a very high incidence of beriberi among cadets on a training mission from Japan to Hawaii, via New Zealand and South America. The voyage lasted more than 9 months and resulted in 169 cases of sickness and 25 deaths on a ship of 376 men. With the support of the Japanese Navy, he conducted an experiment in which another ship was deployed on the same route, except that its crew was fed a diet of meat, fish, barley, rice, and beans. At the end of the voyage, this crew had only 14 cases of beriberi and no deaths. This convinced Kanehiro and the Japanese Navy that diet was the cause.[25] In 1884, Kanehiro observed that beriberi was endemic among low-ranking crew who were often provided free rice and thus ate little else, but not among crews of Western navies and nor among Japanese officers who consumed a more varied diet."

You are extrapolating, it is not saying how the Japanese Navy solved the problem, only the experiment that made Kanehiro realized how to prevent beriberi. My source: https://medium.com/war-is-boring/eating ... .4ebrogx3c

"In March 1885, he [Kanehiro] instituted his solution—protein-rich barley mixed with rice." it was barley not millet, i didn't remember the article correctly.

I'm not saying a varied diet isn't good, just that your example was not correct. And by the way, SAD is a varied diet, yet it isn't a good diet. I live in Japan and I know what they are recommending, like avoiding excess salt......

Even adding barley to rice is more varied than just eating rice. From your referenced article, it seems Dr Kanehiro preferred a better diet for the sailors, but the Japanese Navy wanted to save money. From the title of your referenced article "Eating too much rice almost sank the Japanese Navy", do we conclude eating too much rice was a problem? And can we conclude the Navy was primarily supplying only rice to its sailors, to save money? Rice was low cost, that is why the sailors were eating mostly rice, as the Navy did not want to pay for more expensive meat and fish. Not that eating primarily rice provided superior health or longevity.
You previously stated the diet was not more varied because beriberi could have been solved by eating brown rice: " I wouldn't say that it was more varied as they could have replace white rice by brown rice to get the same effect." But brown rice was not their solution, and the diet was made more varied. Not as varied as Dr Kanehiro preferred, but more varied than what the sailors had previously.

Where brown rice is the staple, there is no beri beri.

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Ako_ ... dy&f=false

 

[milk_lover]

post 117032 Starch - causes leaky gut - causes inflammation. Well cooked starch along with some fat, is ok according to Ray Peat. Sugar is better. Middle Eastern people, because they have been eating wheat for many thousands of years, are possibly better adapted to eating wheat.

Yeah I believe we've evolved to eat bread not rice. Rice has always given me constipation while white bread agrees with my digestion system. But some times I don't seem to digest bread. As some pointed out, metabolism is a key. When it's low, I can't eat starch no matter what I do. I believe the best course of action is to increase metabolism first with peat-approved food and supplements for a good amount of time, and then introduce starch little by little when you feel your metabolism has increased. But we have to remember, starch is not an optimal source of carbs according to Ray Peat because it increases insulin and stress therefore.

 

[zooma]

Thanks for the reply. I persisted with trying a high fat diet for a while and I've come to very similar conclusions as you.

post 117078 This time around I have concluded that it came from eating too much unripe fruit and other things like garlic, onions and tomatoes. This time around I am eating more simply, well cooked veg, some leafy greens, lots of grains, a few ripe fruit, mainly citrus and lots of sugar. Animal products are the same, a bit of dairy and eggs.

Interesting what you say about unripe fruit. I can get very little ripe fruit where I am, and I think eating poor quality has been problem. I'm going to try cutting out anything that could be causing problems and eat more starch to see if I can get similar results.

So you've reverted to high starch, but where are you getting lots of sugar from if you aren't eating much fruit?

It looks like you are eating low protein also. How do you think that is working out? I got the impression that before when you lost the weight you were eating a good amount of protein.

 

[Zachs]

post 117848 Thanks for the reply. I persisted with trying a high fat diet for a while and I've come to very similar conclusions as you.

post 117078 This time around I have concluded that it came from eating too much unripe fruit and other things like garlic, onions and tomatoes. This time around I am eating more simply, well cooked veg, some leafy greens, lots of grains, a few ripe fruit, mainly citrus and lots of sugar. Animal products are the same, a bit of dairy and eggs.

Interesting what you say about unripe fruit. I can get very little ripe fruit where I am, and I think eating poor quality has been problem. I'm going to try cutting out anything that could be causing problems and eat more starch to see if I can get similar results.

So you've reverted to high starch, but where are you getting lots of sugar from if you aren't eating much fruit?

It looks like you are eating low protein also. How do you think that is working out? I got the impression that before when you lost the weight you were eating a good amount of protein.

Unripe fruit was definitely my main issue with digestion. I was eating a ton of bananas, mangos and pineapple, none of which was really ripe.

My sugar comes from a lot of juices, sodas, coconut water. Also honey in my tea and on my bread and maple syrup I use for cooking a lot, mainly in stir frys. Sometimes I just take a swig.

I don't think my protein has ever been really low. Grains, beans and tubers all have decent protein content. But it's also not high and not ideal Peat numbers, I'd say anywhere from 60-120 a day. High protein has always made me feel worse and I think it's really inflammatory. I hated supplementing gelatin and can't be bothered eating gross cuts of meat or other gelatinous stuff. I feel best on a very high carb diet which spares protein.

 

[Sheila]

I think changing diets takes quite a while to adjust and that might be down to biome. It may also take more energy in some way and so the energy available for adaptation plays a part. If I look at my very old friends who are still bright and sharp, their diets are simple, not very variable and above all, regular. The gut knows when it's going to get fed and largely what is coming and they sit down to eat in a relaxed manner. Seems to me that would lower stress, or finding the extra energy each time for adaptation would not be needed.

I had to change the dogs' food this week due to lack of availability of lamb/beef hearts and moved to chicken hearts instead, as part of their twice-daily meals. A simple change you might think, but it has resulted, despite the chicken hearts being of good quality (I do not purchase pet meat, only that for human consumption, and yes I know there are issues with human consumption meat but this is the best for now), in digestive upset for two of my dogs, one diarrhoea, the other constipation with a much bigger stool than normal, suggesting the gut has some fermentative changes. (Yes, I monitor poo, it has a lot to tell for all species) It seems they could not adapt that fast despite being very healthy, fit, young animals. Or maybe they are on the way to adaptation, but not there yet. I mention this because they don't perhaps have all the 'head stuff' going on that we do, so perhaps, just perhaps, their world is simpler and we can see cause and effect more readily. They food is also regular, they let me know if I am even a few minutes late. How many of us are too busy with what we are doing by example....

Many people experience changes in digestion when they go on holidays, or eat 'different foods' so perhaps changing our food every night as is the current trend is indeed stressful on the system. This is before you consider just what that food might be and its provenance, content, freshness, ripeness etc.
Some people eat the same things because it's easy and ignore feedback because easy is, well, easier.

On the other hand, having choice rather than having to eat what is all that is available would speak to the playful side of our nature and also the social side of food sharing can not be underestimated (although yes, you could keep on sharing the same things). But the quality of the food and its applicability to our own individual biome/system/whatever you want to call it in this highly stressful world is something we all seem to find out for ourselves, at least that is what I gather from reading on this Forum. There are a few principles, but after that it's up to us and our current situation/context/environment. As that changes, in any way, then the gut response changes also, so what worked back in the day for us, maybe what worked yesterday, may not work now. Lots of diversity would mean it was difficult to tell what happened when things do not go as planned.

Not sure I've helped much but yes, I do think excessive diversity, if quality is catered for, might be a stress too far.
Happy New Year to you all, thank you for all your fascinating posts members,
Sheila

 

[charlie]

post 117915 Not sure I've helped much but yes, I do think excessive diversity, if quality is catered for, might be a stress too far.
Happy New Year to you all, thank you for all your fascinating posts members,
Sheila

Great post, Sheila. Happy New Year to you!!

 

[ecstatichamster]

normally on vacation I really suffer from the food. But when we went to Italy for 3 weeks, I didn't suffer. I ate a lot of pizza and pasta and didn't suffer even though I don't handle those foods that well here at home.

I wondered what it could be. #1, I had no pistachios (at home I was eating loads of them, pounds each week.) #2, the flour is different there, very different, and I read of people who could tolerate Italian wheat but not American wheat. #3, I didn't eat potatoes there. I tried a potato elimination diet and found that they made no difference.

But all along, I had headaches. Terrible headaches. In Italy too, every day. When I got back to the US I worked on them but only when I tried Peating did they go away.

Now I'm becoming convinced they are linked to endotoxins. And that I might not be able to tolerate most starches. At least for now.

I ate a VARIED diet yesterday as we cooked for a brunch party, and I ate stuff that I haven't been eating for awhile. And today I have bowel upset. I think it may be the beet salad I ate (the beets were cooked but I think they give me problems.)

It's difficult when you make food for others and when you entertain. Even if you have been steady and on the same diet, when you entertain you vary it a lot and that's what happened yesterday. More proof that predictable sameness may be the key to thriving on food?

 

[Zachs]

Beets have never agreed with me either. Why were you eating pounds of pistachios a week? That makes me cringe as much as my friend that eat 3+ avocados a day.

 

[ecstatichamster]

post 117934 Beets have never agreed with me either. Why were you eating pounds of pistachios a week? That makes me cringe as much as my friend that eat 3+ avocados a day.

I also ate 1 or 2 avocados a day.

Because I was being stupid.