Kasra's Q & A With Peat On A Fruitarian Diet

[Travis]

Fruit tastes so good with coconut cream. I rarely do this, but it is great.

What I do, is let a can of coconut milk separate; the cream rises to the top of the can. Then, I open it from the bottom and strain the water. What is left is very dense coconut cream that is thicker than Greek yogurt or sour cream.

But I just try to eat whole coconuts though, since the entire coconut has minerals, protein, and fiber.

 

[Jennifer]

I love coconut cream with fruit! That's a really smart idea to open the can from the bottom. Thanks for the tip!

I like making whipped cream out of coconut cream by putting it in a mason jar and shaking it up. I also like making a type of soft serve ice cream with it by blending a couple heaping tablespoons with frozen fruit and vanilla bean powder in the vitamix.

 

[Travis]

I stopped eating an entire coconut everyday Jennifer. I realized, after finally signing up for the chronometer, that an entire coconut effectively lowers the Ca/P ratio to less than unity.

This is unacceptable. I think that people should have more calcium than phosphorus. The ratios are important. I read 3 study abstracts that indicate that the Ca/P ratio is important. Even when calcium is held constant, extra phosphate can cause you to go into negative calcium balance.

I found an entire called Dietary Calcium and Phosphorus Ratio Regulates Bone Mineralization and Turnover in Vitamin D Receptor Knockout Mice by Affecting Intestinal Calcium and Phosphorus Absorption. I haven't read this yet, but it is on my to-do list. I did read a rabbit study that found the most favorable Ca/P ratio to be ~2.2.

Greens and most fruit have a Ca/P ratio greater than one, but all nuts, seeds, and grains seem to have much a higher phosphate than calcium levels.

And the coconut cream at Walmart is actually really good. It is only like ~$1.30/can and has nothing besides coconut and water. Most other brands cost more and have guar gum, carageenan, sodium metabisulfite, or a combination of these ingredients.

Aroy-D brand and GoldenStar are the ones without additives.

The GoldenStar brand from Wal-Mart looks generic as hell, I admit, but it is actually one of the best. It might just be relabeled Aroy-D; the popular brand at Asian Stores.

 

[Jennifer]

You were eating mature coconut, huh? From the limited sources I've been able to find on the nutritional profile of young coconuts, it appears they're much higher in calcium, and with a better calcium to phosphorus ratio, than mature coconuts. Do you like young coconuts?

Yeah, Ray believes the calcium to phosphorus ratio is important, also. Looking at the study, I didn't see exactly what each test groups' diet was composed of other than...

"After weaning at 3 weeks of age, all mice were fed the control diet containing 0.5% calcium (Ca) and 0.5% phosphorus (P). Then, VDRKO mice were divided into five dietary groups of 10 mice each (5 males and 5 females) and fed one of five diets: the control diet (Ca/P 1.0; group 2), a diet containing 0.5% calcium and 1.0% phosphorus (Ca/ P 0.5; group 3), a diet containing 1.0% calcium and phosphorus (Ca/P 1.0; group 4), a diet containing 1.0% calcium and 0.5% phosphorus (Ca/P 2.0; group 5), or a diet containing 0.5% calcium and 0.25% phosphorus (Ca/ P 2.0; group 6). All test diets contained 20% lactose and were composed of calcium carbonate (CaCO3) and potassium dihydrogenphosphate (KH2PO4) as the dietary calcium and phosphorus source. Amounts of calcium and phospho- rus in the test diets were confirmed in advance. Wild-type littermates (group 1) were continually fed the control diet during the experimental period. Mice were allowed free access to the assigned diet and water for 4 weeks."

I wonder what exactly they ate besides the lactose, calcium and potassium dihydrogenphosphate, and how much of their diet contained fructose. I would be interested to see if this has any impact on the outcome due to fructose's effect on phosphorus.

Oh, excellent! I'll grab some of the GoldenStar brand the next time I'm at Wal-Mart. I've been using Aroy-D, Native Forest "Simple" coconut milk or Trader Joe's organic coconut milk, but I had to order them online or drive over 40 minutes to the nearest Trader Joe's.

 

[Travis]

Trader Joe's has the best coconut oil IMO. I have tried about 10 different kinds.

The young coconuts are so good and I used to buy them by the case when the were ~$1.30 apiece. When they get above ~$2.00 apiece it is tough because you cannot guarantee that each one will be good. Often times you get bad coconuts; I have had yields as low as ~50%.

Hard to spend ~$10 for two good ones and two bad ones. Kinda ruins the fun.

I went to Florida once and went to a coconut grove. I bought coconuts directly from the guy with the macheté! I piled like 20 coconuts into my car.

The coconut water from Thailand is way sweeter than New World coconuts. The Floridian coconut meat wasn't bad though.

 

[Jennifer]

Yep! I agree. I've been using Trader Joe's coconut oil for years now. I use it as my main moisturizer. I also feed it to my dog. He loves it!

They also have really good frozen organic mango and semi-dried frozen figs. The figs almost remind me of fig jam and the mango comes in a clear bag so I'm able to pick out the ones with the darkest flesh. I keep a large stock of frozen fruit as backup during the winter.

How cool! And I can just imagine what your car looked like with all those coconuts. It would of been hilarious to see the faces on shoppers if you had bought them at a supermarket. I get some of the strangest looks, but the cashiers are so used to my large fruit hauls now that they no longer ask me what I'm planning on making. lol

I gave up on buying fresh coconuts for the same reasons you mentioned. Thai coconuts are my favorite and I ended up tracking down frozen young Thai coconut meat online. It's not cheap, but with the low yields I often got from fresh, it's actually cheaper for me and I keep all my digits this way.

I thought about seeing if Whole Foods could order it for me because they supposedly carry it in their West Coast stores. I'm hoping it will be cheaper than ordering it online because they give a 10% discount on cases of products.

Here's the coconut meat in case you're interested:

Organic Raw Frozen Young Thai Coconut Meat- 11-1 lb pouches/cs - Exotic Superfoods

 

[Travis]

Cool. Just in case you didn't know you can get frozen young coconut from many Asian stores. Much of it has sugar though.

Those Asian Supermarkets have so many coconut derivatives: coconut oil, creamed coconut (nut butter), coconut milk, shredded coconut, coconut water, young whole coconut, young frozen coconut, young frozen coconut water, whole mature coconut, ect.

I love Asian Stores; but they smell like fish. They all do.

...it's actually cheaper for me and I keep all my digits this way.

I have had a few minor coconut-induced injuries.

I used to use a meat-cleaver on the young coconuts, but if you peel all the husk off, you can just bash it against a rock! Most everyone has some piece of masonry in-reach unless they live in a high-rise apartment.

 

[tara]

unless they live in a high-rise apartment

Check for pedestrians before dropping out the window to the pavement below. :)

 

[amethyst]

I have been watching a lot of fruitarian videos primarily on YT and wondered what Peat thought about it, being that he is pro-fruit. Yes, I know he doesn't advocate "just" fruit, but he doesn't dis it as most of the diet gurus do. I think fruit is a good source of nutrition and necessary to a good diet. Are there any interviews where he has expressed his opinion on this subject?

 

[amethyst]

I know I feel really good just eating fruit, say for breakfast. But then a little later, I have to have protein to balance out all that sweetness.

 

[Jennifer]

Cool. Just in case you didn't know you can get frozen young coconut from many Asian stores. Much of it has sugar though.

Those Asian Supermarkets have so many coconut derivatives: coconut oil, creamed coconut (nut butter), coconut milk, shredded coconut, coconut water, young whole coconut, young frozen coconut, young frozen coconut water, whole mature coconut, ect.

I love Asian Stores; but they smell like fish. They all do.


I have had a few minor coconut-induced injuries.

I used to use a meat-cleaver on the young coconuts, but if you peel all the husk off, you can just bash it against a rock! Most everyone has some piece of masonry in-reach unless they live in a high-rise apartment.

Thanks, Travis. I did notice the Asian market sells frozen coconut meat but every brand had either sugar or sketchy sounding preservatives. It's too bad because they cost less than $2 a package so I wouldn't have to ration it like I do the coconut meat I get online.

But oy! That fishy smell at Asian markets is rough. I'm sure they're used to it, but I've never been a fan of fish or that sea smell.

Check for pedestrians before dropping out the window to the pavement below. :)

Hehe!

 

[Jennifer]

I have been watching a lot of fruitarian videos primarily on YT and wondered what Peat thought about it, being that he is pro-fruit. Yes, I know he doesn't advocate "just" fruit, but he doesn't dis it as most of the diet gurus do. I think fruit is a good source of nutrition and necessary to a good diet. Are there any interviews where he has expressed his opinion on this subject?

In regards to a 100% fruit diet, the email between Kasra and Ray is the only one I've come across where Ray addresses it. I would think it's hard for Ray to say with certainty if it's doable or not because he was never able to test fruits himself and/or doesn't know of others who have tested them?

He did give his thoughts on a Peaty inspired vegan diet, though. Here's Westside PUFAs email exchange with Ray on the subject:

"The following email has been forwarded to admin at raypeat forum dot com. Charlie can confirm it's authenticity.

Me:

Date: Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:20 PM
Subject: Casein and glycine deficiency

"Ray,

If someone was a dedicated vegan and they ate no animal products at all, it seems to me that the lack of casein from milk and the lack of glycine from oxtail soup/other animal glycine sources, would be the only real concern due to potential liver problems because of the lack thereof. But given your recent comments on the high protein quality of mushrooms and the high quality protein of potato, do you think if a vegan got most of their calories from quality fruits, some fruit juice, potatoes with coconut oil, mushrooms, and well cooked green leaves for calcium that as long as they have good blood tests for liver function/liver enzymes and thyroid function that they could be healthy?"

Ray Peat responds:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:05 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"Yes, I think those goods can provide enough protein in a good balance of amino acids."

Me:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:42 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"And as far as vitamin A, I know that with enough B12 and good thyroid function, enough carotene will be converted into A. As far as iodine and selenium, a vegan should get enough from those foods, especially iodine because the requirement is so small. The signs of a selenium deficiency could be the same as the typical hypothyroid symptoms but usually the very rare Keshan disease, but with an abundance of those foods, a vegan should get enough selenium. As far as endotoxin, a vegan would be more than happy to use raw carrots and bamboo shoots to keep things moving. But a high fruit diet naturally keeps things moving as well."

Ray Peat responds:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:25 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"PUFA can react with iodine to make antithyroid compounds, so iodine deficiency is less likely when the diet is low in those.""

Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

 

[amethyst]

In regards to a 100% fruit diet, the email between Kasra and Ray is the only one I've come across where Ray addresses it. I would think it's hard for Ray to say with certainty if it's doable or not because he was never able to test fruits himself and/or doesn't know of others who have tested them?

He did give his thoughts on a Peaty inspired vegan diet, though. Here's Westside PUFAs email exchange with Ray on the subject:

"The following email has been forwarded to admin at raypeat forum dot com. Charlie can confirm it's authenticity.

Me:

Date: Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 2:20 PM
Subject: Casein and glycine deficiency

"Ray,

If someone was a dedicated vegan and they ate no animal products at all, it seems to me that the lack of casein from milk and the lack of glycine from oxtail soup/other animal glycine sources, would be the only real concern due to potential liver problems because of the lack thereof. But given your recent comments on the high protein quality of mushrooms and the high quality protein of potato, do you think if a vegan got most of their calories from quality fruits, some fruit juice, potatoes with coconut oil, mushrooms, and well cooked green leaves for calcium that as long as they have good blood tests for liver function/liver enzymes and thyroid function that they could be healthy?"

Ray Peat responds:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 3:05 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"Yes, I think those goods can provide enough protein in a good balance of amino acids."

Me:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 4:42 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"And as far as vitamin A, I know that with enough B12 and good thyroid function, enough carotene will be converted into A. As far as iodine and selenium, a vegan should get enough from those foods, especially iodine because the requirement is so small. The signs of a selenium deficiency could be the same as the typical hypothyroid symptoms but usually the very rare Keshan disease, but with an abundance of those foods, a vegan should get enough selenium. As far as endotoxin, a vegan would be more than happy to use raw carrots and bamboo shoots to keep things moving. But a high fruit diet naturally keeps things moving as well."

Ray Peat responds:

Tue, Dec 15, 2015 at 7:25 PM
Re: Casein and glycine deficiency

"PUFA can react with iodine to make antithyroid compounds, so iodine deficiency is less likely when the diet is low in those.""

Peat's Surprising Response To My Email. A "Ray Peat Vegan" Is Possible

Thanks for posting those Peat quotes. I appreciate :)

 

[Jennifer]

I know I feel really good just eating fruit, say for breakfast. But then a little later, I have to have protein to balance out all that sweetness.

I find I need to balance out all the sweetness, too. By the end of the day, I'm craving something savory so I eat a salad of baby greens with herbs like dill, and fruit veggies like tomatoes, cucumbers and small amounts of olives or avocado.

Since summer, I've been addicted to these gorgeous heirloom tomatoes from Whole Foods. They're a mix of yellow, orange and watermelon pink. They look like something from the tropics. They have this creamy flesh that melts in your mouth with absolutely no acidity. I've also been eating brown tomatoes (Kumato) that are very tasty.

 

[Jennifer]

Thanks for posting those Peat quotes. I appreciate :)

My pleasure! :)

 

[amethyst]

I find I need to balance out all the sweetness, too. By the end of the day, I'm craving something savory so I eat a salad of baby greens with herbs like dill, and fruit veggies like tomatoes, cucumbers and small amounts of olives or avocado.

Since summer, I've been addicted to these gorgeous heirloom tomatoes from Whole Foods. They're a mix of yellow, orange and watermelon pink. They look like something from the tropics. They have this creamy flesh that melts in your mouth with absolutely no acidity. I've also been eating brown tomatoes (Kumato) that are very tasty.

I know what you mean about a salad craving. Sometimes that's all you want....just the fresh, crisp veggies with a little dressing on the side. I think it's the nutrients in the veggies one craves.