Many People Misrepresent Peat's Views On Green Vegetables

Discussion in 'Ray Peat Topics' started by Westside PUFAs, Dec 15, 2015.

  1. Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    There are more and more "Peat inspired" practitioners, nutritionists, bloggers, personal trainers etc., popping up all over the globe. Many of these people often misrepresent Ray Peat's views on many things; mainly "sugar," milk fat, exercise, supplements, and greens. But today's focus is going to be on greens.

    User asks: "Why no love for the leafy greens mate?"

    Josh Rubin: "If you watch more of my youtubes and check out our blog, it will make sense. They are higher in cellulose and unsat fats which we can't break down, cause GI issues, over load the liver, suppress the thyroid, etc, etc. that is why we rec fruits and roots. We are not cows (ruminant animals) which are designed to break down these foods. We do not physiologically have the gut for it. Check out the work of Ray Peat, some of our other youtubes, blog on our website, etc. As well, we talk about this in depth in our programs. Thanks for the question and support."

    I then commented with Peat's pro-greens quotes and Josh Replied:

    "For one, we don't eat, live and breathe according to a book, a person etc. like others do. Do we study Rays work, for sure we do but we also use it and mix it with others work, human physiology and the the person in front of us, which most ignore. So when it comes to healing the thyroid, regulating blood sugar and the guT, leafy greens to nothing to help with that. But, for someone that is healed, can't get fruit in the winter, doesn't like fish etc and needs minerals, they can be added and overlooked to aid in digestion. So, from a constipation point of view and the thyroid we don't recommend them, hence the video. From a global perspective we don't recommend them as optimal carbs. From a global perspective we Rec them if we feel the Person in front of us can handle them, as long as they are paired with a fruit or root and overlooked. So as you can see, it all depends on the client that's in front of you:)"

    But Josh said "Check out the work of Ray Peat" when the person asked about greens...that's misrepresentation.

    From the comment section of: What Causes Constipation?

    Kitty Blomfield interview with Danny Roddy:

    Kitty: "So I noticed in your diet there are no grains, nuts, seeds or green vegetable’s, no green vegetables, what?? And white sugar!"

    Danny: "Ray has an excellent newsletter “who defines food” he makes a case that green vegetables are a poor peoples food and they don’t have an integral place in the diet (I might be paraphrasing he may not have said that exact thing in the newsletter)."

    http://nustrength.com.au/interview-with-danny-roddy-2/

    The quote Danny is talking about:

    "Poor people, especially in the spring when other foods were scarce, have sometimes subsisted on foliage such as collard and poke greens, usually made more palatable by cooking them with flavorings, such as a little bacon grease and lots of salt. Eventually, "famine foods" can be accepted as dietary staples. The fact that cows, sheep, goats and deer can thrive on a diet of foliage shows that leaves contain essential nutrients. Their minerals, vitamins, and amino acids are suitable for sustaining most animal life, if a sufficient quantity is eaten. But when people try to live primarily on foliage, as in famines, they soon suffer from a great variety of diseases. Various leaves contain antimetabolic substances that prevent the assimilation of the nutrients, and only very specifically adapted digestive systems (or technologies) can overcome those toxic effects."

    Vegetables, etc.—Who Defines Food?

    People should familiarize themselves with there term "nuance." This is a very important word in Peat-land. The fine details are important.

    Of course people can't live off of foliage. Peat was talking about living through a famine. And "poke greens" are not the same as other greens. Just like a guava is not the same as a strawberry but they are both "fruits."

    “Foods with a higher, safer ratio of calcium to phosphate are leaves, such as kale, turnip greens, and beet greens, and many fruits, milk, and cheese. - from Ray Peat article "Phosphate, activation, and aging"

    http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/ph ... ging.shtml

    Kitty: "As you know we run a program called “popping the food bubble’ which was written by Dodie Anderson and Rob Turner. Many people think after many years of treating their body a certain way they are going to fixed in 12 weeks, we are forever trying to educate people on the ‘physiological timeline’ vs the ‘marketing timeline’ as Rob Turner would put it. I have been eating this way for two years now and I still feel like I am learning, where are you at in the journey?"

    Kitty may have missed this part of RT's program:

    [​IMG]

    http://www.functionalps.com/blog/2014/0 ... etabolism/

    Peat quotes on greens in the context of just using their bolied water:

    "I sometimes make a magnesium supplement by boiling a pound of greens (kale, beets, spinach, etc.) in a little water, making a concentrated extract rich in magnesium.”

    "The things I most often recommend for magnesium are the water from boiling greens such as beet, chard, turnip and kale, and coffee."

    "Cooked green leaves, or the water they were boiled in, is a very good source of magnesium, with other minerals in safe ratio."

    [GREEN JUICES] "The minerals and vitamin K are definitely valuable, but the high content of PUFA and tannins is a problem. Boiling the leaves and discarding all but the water can produce a good magnesium supplement.
    [I supplement 5g of vit K2 mk-4 once a week, do you think green veggies are even necessary?] If you have other sources of magnesium, the green vegetables aren't needed"


    Peat quotes on greens in context of eating the whole leaves:

    "Those hormones, antagonistic to cortisol, can help to reduce waist fat. Chard, collard, and kale are good greens."

    "Well cooked potatoes, with butter or cream, fruit, and well cooked greens are other foods have vitamins and minerals that are helpful."

    "Well cooked greens are very good sources, coffee and chocolate are, too."

    "but the first thing should be to make sure her calcium to phosphorus ratio is good, by having two quarts of low fat milk per day, or the equivalent in low fat cheese, with no grains, legumes, nuts, or muscle meats, and with some well cooked greens regularly. Vitamin K is important for calcium metabolism, too."

    "Cooked green leaves, or the water they were boiled in, is a very good source of magnesium, with other minerals in safe ratio." (both whole and water quote)

    It's okay to have a little well-cooked broccoli dipped in hummus, you won't get a goiter:

    "Some fibers, such as raw carrots, that are effective for lowering endotoxin absorption also contain natural antibiotics, so regular use of carrots should be balanced by occasional supplementation with vitamin K, or by occasionally eating liver or broccoli." - Email with Kasra


    http://wiki.raypeatforum.com/index.php/ ... _Exchanges
     
  2. tara

    tara Member

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    Yeah. There's a big difference between trying to get all your carbohydrate and protein needs met from greens, which Peat does not recommend unless it's a famine and you have no choice, and which would take several kilos every day, and eating some greens regularly for the minerals, which it seems to me he thinks is a reasonable option.
     
  3. johnwester130

    johnwester130 Member

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    I think it's far more simple

    green vegetables are not instinctual foods

    they are not satisfying

    personally, they lower my body temperature, and therefore I assume, lower my metabolism.
     
  4. artist

    artist Member

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    ^ Says you ... I love kale and I know I'm not the only one
     
  5. tara

    tara Member

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    If I go without greens for more than a couple of days I start to crave them and feel worse. I don't want large quantities, but sometimes a little leafy food makes a meal more satisfying to me.
    Maybe it depends on whether one is getting the needed minerals from other sources - and maybe you are.
     
  6. OP
    Westside PUFAs

    Westside PUFAs Member

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    The concept of "instinctual" foods in regard to humans is tricky. The human being is a modifier and a cooker. We know how to greatly modify and greatly change the chemical structure of a plant thought cooking it. The book "Catching Fire: How Cooking Made Us Human" is really good. The Chinese figured out a long time ago that the planted seeds of Oryza sativa provide a constant supply of much needed glucose. Yes, white rice is not very nutritious, but it does provide arguably the most important nutrient which is glucose. If it works, it works.

    As far as satiation, leafy greens aren't meant to satisfy. They don't provide enough carbohydrate to satisfy, unlike rice and some roots, and fruits. Greens are used for their minerals and possibly undiscovered/unstudied phytochemicals and vitamin K1. K1 is required for green plants to conduct the process of photosynthesis. The K2 form of vitamin K is made from K1 and K3 by bacteria and other microorganisms. It can also be made in the human body through a conversion process involving K1 and K3. The reason why greens are high in magnesium is because of chlorophyll.
     
  7. FredSonoma

    FredSonoma Member

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    I agree! I do eat a lot of table sugar / soda so that could explain my need for minerals / potassium / magnesium / idk but I really enjoy leafy greens and don't feel complete without them.

    Edit: Actually hmm... I've cut my milk intake down recently, but back when it was 1/2 gallon+ I would often skip / not think about green veggies. Now that I only drink a glass or two a day + some cheese, I definitely crave them more.
     
  8. Nicholas

    Nicholas Member

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    i have always felt the same. i ate some collards tonight in broth with garlic and onions. before i cooked them, i tasted the raw collards and it tasted like a non-food....but weirdly it did kick off some synapses and felt good. i still felt warm after eating them in the broth, too. thinking out loud: there are lots of people who eat fruit and they have certain fruits that they just don't like....but they don't discard the entire food group (even "green vegetables"). i like grapes and pears and oranges.....but apples make me gag, as well as papaya. in the vegetable group, i do actually enjoy the taste of cabbage and brussels sprouts and zucchini and arugula and i've eaten really good chard before with nutmeg, though it was probably good in its balancing of other foods.
     
  9. tara

    tara Member

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    From interview with Peat recently transcribed by Moss:
     
  10. Makrosky

    Makrosky Member

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    Not only in vegetables. In many things.

    Anyway Peat's views are not something one should study sentence by sentence like a jewish KABBALAH or something like that. I don't think that's the point.
     
  11. Such_Saturation

    Such_Saturation Member

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    savage
     
  12. paymanz

    paymanz Member

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    yeah for sure we need some greens to fulfill some vitamins and minerals requirements.just like what chimps doing.
     
  13. thegiantess

    thegiantess Member

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    What I find interesting is the American disdain for vegetables. Or perhaps it's a disdain for anything that can be perceived as healthy. I know a disturbing amount of people that wouldn't touch a vegetable with a ten foot pole. I recall to when the Paleo movement emerged and Internet folks everywhere rejoiced because they never liked vegetables to begin with and Paleo gave them an excuse to be the "meat and potatoes," type they always had been.

    Beyond just vegetables I think a bigger problem with any sort of "diet" paradigm is that it is limiting. Folks look for an approved list of foods to eat and pay attention to nothing else--often ceasing to eat actual food in the process, but instead just a series of ingredients. I've noticed here that several people will drink milk or oj and eat this random ingredient and that one, but none of it makes any cohesive sense. Or in the Paleo world people often eat pounds of bacon or put butter in their coffee and call it a meal. Doesn't this ignore the crucial factor of preparing and enjoying a meal? Like a complete thing... An amalgamation of ingredients that come together to form something cohesive? And then sharing said meal with others? I guess my point is that there is more to food than just its nutrient profile. The social and cultural aspect of food is extremely important, but so often ignored.
     
  14. daisyjane

    daisyjane Member

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    I think RP, or someone who follows him, once said that vegetables should be more of a condiment rather than something to base your meal on. Not like these trendy Instagram vegans whose plates are like 90% greens and 10% actual calorie-dense foods. If you look at the long-lived Blue Zones people, they're not cramming down 10 servings of vegetables a day, they're just having a little bit with each meal. I find a bit of kale or romaine or cabbage can be really tasty as a complement to the main dish.
     
  15. James_001

    James_001 Member

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    It is time consuming to prepare and cook a meal...
     
  16. thegiantess

    thegiantess Member

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    I have 8.5 month old twins and I cook every day, every meal. I appreciate that many folks in this country don't have the luxury of much free time.. Especially the working poor. However my guess is that if folks have time to spend on nutrition forums, they likely have time to cook. No?
     
  17. James_001

    James_001 Member

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    Yeah, but I mean whats the benefit of spending time that way?

    Also, I wouldn't spend time on here if I wasn't sick.
     
  18. thegiantess

    thegiantess Member

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    Hm. I guess my point is that often the most obvious thing is what is missing. Preparing whole foods based nutritious meals that you can share with family or other loved ones is in my mind essential to having a healthy relationship with food. By extension, having a healthy relationship with food is a pre requisite to being healthy. Seeing food and meals as a part of life, meant to be enjoyed and shared is one of the things that all the longest lived populations share. Additionally, when you prepare foods and contro the ingredients and eat actual meals it is easier in my mind to be well nourished. Picking and choosing random foods and throwing them together to form a hodge podge of snacks just doesn't make sense to me. I realize the therapeutic value of having a limited diet in the short term, but as a long term solution I see it as creating more problems than it fixes.
     
  19. thegiantess

    thegiantess Member

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    Also. What's the benefit of spending time that way?? Really? Assurance that myself and my family have healthy, delicious food to eat. That's the most obvious value. Not to mention the biological/evolutionary importance of food and preparing food to who we are as humans, establishing a healthy relationship and appreciation of food in my children, expressing creativity, etc. I could go on and on.
     
  20. grenade

    grenade Member

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    Resurrecting this thread from the dead, but @thegiantess made some really good points. My meals have become an odd assortment of snacks. Sugared milk and coffee or cocoa. Bowls of fruit. Platters of shrimp cocktail. Potatoes fried in CO. There’s something enriching about creating, experiencing, and sharing “meals” as opposed to eating something purely for the nutritional content.
     
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