Switching from a Paleo diet to a more peat diet

barbwirehouse

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From what I've gathered online, the below is what is allowed/disallowed on a peat diet.

Allowed
>Pasture Raised full fat dairy (milk, yogurt, cheese)
>Pasture Raised ruminant meats (beef, lamb)
>Pasture Raised non-ruminant meats in moderation (chicken, pork, turkey, duck)
>Eggs from pasture raised chickens
>Seafood (lobster, crab, oyster, mussels)
>Fruit (blueberries, raspberries, bananas, watermelon, cherries, pears, peaches, mangos, pineapples)
>Tubers, roots, bulbs (carrots, parsnips, beets, potatoes, turnips, onions, garlic)
>Fruit-vegetables (squash, cucumbers, tomatoes, green peas, green beans, zucchini, jalapeños)
Saturated oils and fats (coconut oil, macadamia oil, olive oil, butter, beef fat, lamb fat)

Disallowed foods
>cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, collards, kale, kohlrabi, chinese cabbage)
>above ground vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, collard greens, asparagus, brussels sprouts, spinach, lettuce, cabbage)
>Legumes (beans, lentils, chickpeas, soybeans, black beans, kidney beans, navy beans)
>Grains (wheat, oats, soybeans, corn)
>All grain-fed meat
>Nuts (all apart from macadamia)
>Fatty fish (salmon, tuna, mackerel, trout, herring, sardines)
>PUFA oils and fats (vegetable, canola, corn, cottonseed, soybean, safflower, sunflower, peanut, grape seed, margarine)
>seeds (sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, chia seeds)

I currently eat a paleo diet which consists of.
Allowed
>Pasture Raised full fat dairy (milk, yogurt, cheese)
>Pasture Raised ruminant meats (beef, lamb)
>Pasture Raised non-ruminant meats (chicken, pork, turkey, duck)
>Eggs from pasture raised chickens
>Seafood (lobster, crab, oyster, mussels)
>Fruit (blueberries, raspberries, bananas, watermelon, cherries, pears, peaches, mangos, pineapples)
>Tubers, roots, bulbs (carrots, parsnips, beets, potatoes, turnips, onions, garlic)
>Fruit-vegetables (squash, cucumbers, tomatoes, green peas, green beans, zucchini, jalapeños)
Saturated oils and fats (coconut oil, macadamia oil, olive oil, butter, beef fat, lamb fat)
>Nuts (almond, macadamia, cashew, pitaschio)
>Fatty fish (salmon, tuna, mackerel, trout, herring, sardines)
>cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, collards, kale, kohlrabi, chinese cabbage)
>above ground vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, collard greens, asparagus, brussels sprouts, spinach, lettuce, cabbage)


Disallowed foods
>Legumes (beans, lentils, chickpeas, soybeans, black beans, kidney beans, navy beans)
>Grains (wheat, oats, soybeans, corn)
>All grain-fed meat
>PUFA oils and fats (vegetable, canola, corn, cottonseed, soybean, safflower, sunflower, peanut, grape seed, margarine)
>seeds (sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, chia seeds)

In switching I'd be cutting out nuts, some vegetables and fatty fish. Thoughts on this change in a general health perspective? Could I gain something from avoiding the problems that peat talks about with some vegetables and the PUFA content of nuts and fatty fish? :ugeek:
 

Kasra

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Both of those diets seem basically perfect.

I doubt you'd notice much of a difference from cutting out nuts, fatty fish, and vegetables.
 
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barbwirehouse

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Kasra said:
Both of those diets seem basically perfect.

I doubt you'd notice much of a difference from cutting out nuts, fatty fish, and vegetables.

Oh come on, this is the ray peat forum! Surely I'm doing something wrong here by eating all this PUFA containing fatty fish and nuts! :lol:
 

ilovethesea

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barbwirehouse said:
Kasra said:
Both of those diets seem basically perfect.

I doubt you'd notice much of a difference from cutting out nuts, fatty fish, and vegetables.

Oh come on, this is the ray peat forum! Surely I'm doing something wrong here by eating all this PUFA containing fatty fish and nuts! :lol:

Kasra doesn't follow a Ray Peat diet, just FYI. Not sure why he's here...
 

Kasra

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I'm here because I think Peat is a wise guy.

I don't eat a "Peat diet", but I take everything he says into serious consideration.
 

Zachs

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593
Your diet and a RP inspired diet have a lot the same on paper but ratios make all the difference. Most importantly, RP focuses on sugar as the main macro where as paleo focuses on fat, usually saturated depending on which version you follow. A RP diet is a low fat diet because although there are some benefits to saturated fat, fst in general is a poor source of fuel and can cause some issues with fat gain, thyroid function, inflammation, etc.

So yes, you would need to cut out most veggies and all nuts but more importantly you would have to skew your macros towards a dairy and fruit based diet with far less emphasis on fat and meat.

Most likely you would see health improvements from doing this but we dont know what your health issues are so who knows.

Btw some of the foods you listed as Peat foods are not, macadamia, berries, onions, turkey, yogurt and he usually doesnt recommend full fat dairy unless you are under weight.
 

Kasra

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barbwirehouse said:
Oh come on, this is the ray peat forum! Surely I'm doing something wrong here by eating all this PUFA containing fatty fish and nuts! :lol:

It's worth noting that the PUFA:vitamin E ratio is usually more favorable in fatty fish and nuts than in seed oils, which are the main source of PUFA intake for most people. For example, 1 gram of PUFA from canola oil comes with ~0.6 mg of vitamin E while 1 gram of PUFA from almonds comes with ~2.2 mg of vitamin E. Some seed oils, like corn and walnut oil, have an even worse ratio.

Since vitamin E is a basic protective factor against PUFA, it's likely that the PUFA from nuts and fatty fish is less harmful than the PUFA from seed oils.

There might be a benefit to cutting out nuts and fatty fish, but I wouldn't bet on it.
 
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barbwirehouse

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Zachs said:
Your diet and a RP inspired diet have a lot the same on paper but ratios make all the difference. Most importantly, RP focuses on sugar as the main macro where as paleo focuses on fat, usually saturated depending on which version you follow. A RP diet is a low fat diet because although there are some benefits to saturated fat, fst in general is a poor source of fuel and can cause some issues with fat gain, thyroid function, inflammation, etc.

So yes, you would need to cut out most veggies and all nuts but more importantly you would have to skew your macros towards a dairy and fruit based diet with far less emphasis on fat and meat.

Most likely you would see health improvements from doing this but we dont know what your health issues are so who knows.

Btw some of the foods you listed as Peat foods are not, macadamia, berries, onions, turkey, yogurt and he usually doesnt recommend full fat dairy unless you are under weight.

I'm 100% milk tolerant and LOVE fruit. :)

Why is macadamia not peat? It includes 1.5g of PUFA per 100g which is tiny. Yogurt isn't peat because it's fermented I assume? So that leaves us with cheese, straight up milk and ice cream. Onions are a bulb, do they contain some kind of toxin?
 

nikotrope

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Finding a trusted source of fresh nuts, especially nuts not growing in your country (I don't know where macadamia are growing, but not in my country), is very difficult. If you can find one, why not a handful few times a week.
 
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barbwirehouse

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nikotrope said:
Finding a trusted source of fresh nuts, especially nuts not growing in your country (I don't know where macadamia are growing, but not in my country), is very difficult. If you can find one, why not a handful few times a week.
They are native to australia... and i live in australia. :P
 

Dutchie

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If you don't experience negative effects from eating fatty fish and nuts,why stop eating them if you like them.
Personally I've never cared much for nuts&seeds and sometimes had trouble with digestion,macadamia's were ok and I love coconut,but for me it's probably bc a lot of nuts are starchy and I don't handle starch really well.
Lately,I've been thinking about incorporating fatty fish back in bc I'm thinking it's beneficial if you not go overboard with it. From my experience,it seems that the higher Omega6 than Omega3 PUFA in foods can be problematic. Especially now that it's the cold wet&dark season here,it seems that the Omega 3's (fish&leafy greens) help to keep my mood more positive.

When you look at it,all those studies always state fish oil,which I assume come from supplements and not eating the actual fish themselves. So,I'm really starting to question if this PUFA scare in natural foods,especially O3,is legit....bc when I was VLC Paleo,eating fatty fish&green veggies daily,my skin was very smooth,without zits,blemishes etc., and had very few noticable wrinkles (people used to think I was a lot younger than I am back then),I had more muscle defenition and my belly wasn't flabby (partly bc of waterretention I guess).
 

lindsay

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There is no such thing as a "disallowed" food - unless you are part of some science experiment and being closely monitored. There are food recommendations that RP makes, but let's not confuse this with a diet he has mandated we all follow. Some of us do well with sugars - others do better with starches. We are all unique and following a blanket protocol doesn't work the same for everyone.

That being said, I suggest you find out what your issues are and adjust diet from there. For instance, if you have a high TSH and lots of hypothyroid symptoms, you may want to stay away from the cruciferous veggies - or if you have trouble digesting them, that's another reason to stop eating them for awhile and see how you feel. But some cruciferous veggies can be beneficial when cooked really well - like Kale or other dark greens full of magnesium and calcium. RP mentions eating well cooked greens is beneficial if you cannot drink milk because you get the same minerals.

Regarding nuts and seeds - well, that's up to you. Kasra makes a good point about the PUFA vs. vitamin E content in nuts. However, they are not a easily bio-available protein source (like legumes). If you like them and digest them fine and don't feel ill-effects from them, well then great! Personally, they give me indigestion if I eat more than a tiny amount. Macadamia's are the good nuts on the fat scale, however - they are higher in MUFA than PUFA and really darn tasty (homemade macadamia nut butter is the bomb, but it will break your bank).

A note about the meat consumption - while getting adequate protein is highly recommended by RP, eating tons of muscle meats is not. They are full of inflammatory amino acids (as is milk, but milk has other protective factors, like calcium). Again - if you feel great eating lots of meat, then go for it. If you experience a reaction to certain amino acids, maybe it's best to find what works for you. Calcium to phosphorus ratio is what RP seems to focus on a lot.

My two years of diving into RP has led me to favor high fat cheeses over lots of milk, citrus fruits/juices (and lots of other seasonal fruits), eggs, shellfish, and occasional meat consumption. And I eat veggies and fish when I crave them. Lately I've been craving sushi daily for the past week. So, I listen to my body as maybe there is something in it I need more of, like iodine. I think getting adequate minerals and fat soluble vitamins is a big part of the diet. All Ray Peat's food recommendations are very highly balanced, but very few people follow ALL of his recommendations (like being sure to eat liver or other food source high in vitamin A & K2). Variety of nutrient rich food sources is key I think.
 

Zachs

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Messages
593
barbwirehouse said:
Zachs said:
Your diet and a RP inspired diet have a lot the same on paper but ratios make all the difference. Most importantly, RP focuses on sugar as the main macro where as paleo focuses on fat, usually saturated depending on which version you follow. A RP diet is a low fat diet because although there are some benefits to saturated fat, fst in general is a poor source of fuel and can cause some issues with fat gain, thyroid function, inflammation, etc.

So yes, you would need to cut out most veggies and all nuts but more importantly you would have to skew your macros towards a dairy and fruit based diet with far less emphasis on fat and meat.

Most likely you would see health improvements from doing this but we dont know what your health issues are so who knows.

Btw some of the foods you listed as Peat foods are not, macadamia, berries, onions, turkey, yogurt and he usually doesnt recommend full fat dairy unless you are under weight.

I'm 100% milk tolerant and LOVE fruit. :)

Why is macadamia not peat? It includes 1.5g of PUFA per 100g which is tiny. Yogurt isn't peat because it's fermented I assume? So that leaves us with cheese, straight up milk and ice cream. Onions are a bulb, do they contain some kind of toxin?

Ray peat is not a fan of unsaturated fat in general. Also nuts are plant seeds just like grains and beans, they have anti nutrients that can inhibit uptake of some minerals. Yogurt, yes because of the fermentation process creating lactic acid and also the added bacteria. Onions are a prebiotic, meaning their fiber feeds bacteria.

You forgot cottage cheese. :)
 

Kasra

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Zachs said:
Ray peat is not a fan of unsaturated fat in general.

Peat speaks well of the monounsaturated oleic acid:

The amide of oleic acid is a sleep promoter, with apparent antiserotonin activity (Yang, et al., 2003) . . . (Source)

The endothelial lining of blood vessels is protected by saturated fats and oleic acid, damaged by polyunsaturated . . . (Source)

The liver treats PUFA as it treats toxins, but when their concentration is too high, they poison the detoxifying system. Oleic acid, which we can make ourselves from carbohydrates, greatly activates the detox enzyme system. (Source)

Macadamia nuts predominantly contain oleic acid.
 

aquaman

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macadamias should be fine. Getting bogged down in minutiae won't help, and probably just lead to calorie restriction.

It's about ratios - you basically want to be eating 50%+ of carbs in the form of fructose and milk sugars. Also eating early in the morning and something just before bed, combining with sunlight, moderate exercise, and monitoring your food intake and seeing if it raises your body temp and pulse rate, or positively affecrs other variables such as digestion/bowel transit time, sexual desire/libido, warm extremities, no gas, better sleep etc:

I think the point bolded is largely forgotten, and people turn to drinking gallons of OJ and milk without considering what effect it is having on their body signals.

It's about using more than just your body fat percentage as an indicator of health, like 99% of eating protocols use exclusively ie "i'm losing weight, i must be getting healthier"
 
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barbwirehouse

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lindsay said:
There is no such thing as a "disallowed" food - unless you are part of some science experiment and being closely monitored. There are food recommendations that RP makes, but let's not confuse this with a diet he has mandated we all follow. Some of us do well with sugars - others do better with starches. We are all unique and following a blanket protocol doesn't work the same for everyone.

That being said, I suggest you find out what your issues are and adjust diet from there. For instance, if you have a high TSH and lots of hypothyroid symptoms, you may want to stay away from the cruciferous veggies - or if you have trouble digesting them, that's another reason to stop eating them for awhile and see how you feel. But some cruciferous veggies can be beneficial when cooked really well - like Kale or other dark greens full of magnesium and calcium. RP mentions eating well cooked greens is beneficial if you cannot drink milk because you get the same minerals.

Regarding nuts and seeds - well, that's up to you. Kasra makes a good point about the PUFA vs. vitamin E content in nuts. However, they are not a easily bio-available protein source (like legumes). If you like them and digest them fine and don't feel ill-effects from them, well then great! Personally, they give me indigestion if I eat more than a tiny amount. Macadamia's are the good nuts on the fat scale, however - they are higher in MUFA than PUFA and really darn tasty (homemade macadamia nut butter is the bomb, but it will break your bank).

A note about the meat consumption - while getting adequate protein is highly recommended by RP, eating tons of muscle meats is not. They are full of inflammatory amino acids (as is milk, but milk has other protective factors, like calcium). Again - if you feel great eating lots of meat, then go for it. If you experience a reaction to certain amino acids, maybe it's best to find what works for you. Calcium to phosphorus ratio is what RP seems to focus on a lot.

My two years of diving into RP has led me to favor high fat cheeses over lots of milk, citrus fruits/juices (and lots of other seasonal fruits), eggs, shellfish, and occasional meat consumption. And I eat veggies and fish when I crave them. Lately I've been craving sushi daily for the past week. So, I listen to my body as maybe there is something in it I need more of, like iodine. I think getting adequate minerals and fat soluble vitamins is a big part of the diet. All Ray Peat's food recommendations are very highly balanced, but very few people follow ALL of his recommendations (like being sure to eat liver or other food source high in vitamin A & K2). Variety of nutrient rich food sources is key I think.

Thanks for the detailed reply Lindsay :D

Dutchie said:
If you don't experience negative effects from eating fatty fish and nuts,why stop eating them if you like them.
Personally I've never cared much for nuts&seeds and sometimes had trouble with digestion,macadamia's were ok and I love coconut,but for me it's probably bc a lot of nuts are starchy and I don't handle starch really well.
Lately,I've been thinking about incorporating fatty fish back in bc I'm thinking it's beneficial if you not go overboard with it. From my experience,it seems that the higher Omega6 than Omega3 PUFA in foods can be problematic. Especially now that it's the cold wet&dark season here,it seems that the Omega 3's (fish&leafy greens) help to keep my mood more positive.

When you look at it,all those studies always state fish oil,which I assume come from supplements and not eating the actual fish themselves. So,I'm really starting to question if this PUFA scare in natural foods,especially O3,is legit....bc when I was VLC Paleo,eating fatty fish&green veggies daily,my skin was very smooth,without zits,blemishes etc., and had very few noticable wrinkles (people used to think I was a lot younger than I am back then),I had more muscle defenition and my belly wasn't flabby (partly bc of waterretention I guess).

Yea there doesn't seem to be a concrete answer on the topic of omega 3 PUFAs, whether they're benefical even when you have very-little no omega 6 PUFA or not.

Zachs said:
Ray peat is not a fan of unsaturated fat in general. Also nuts are plant seeds just like grains and beans, they have anti nutrients that can inhibit uptake of some minerals. Yogurt, yes because of the fermentation process creating lactic acid and also the added bacteria. Onions are a prebiotic, meaning their fiber feeds bacteria.

You forgot cottage cheese. :)

Thanks Zachs.

aquaman said:
macadamias should be fine. Getting bogged down in minutiae won't help, and probably just lead to calorie restriction.

It's about ratios - you basically want to be eating 50%+ of carbs in the form of fructose and milk sugars. Also eating early in the morning and something just before bed, combining with sunlight, moderate exercise, and monitoring your food intake and seeing if it raises your body temp and pulse rate, or positively affecrs other variables such as digestion/bowel transit time, sexual desire/libido, warm extremities, no gas, better sleep etc:

I think the point bolded is largely forgotten, and people turn to drinking gallons of OJ and milk without considering what effect it is having on their body signals.

It's about using more than just your body fat percentage as an indicator of health, like 99% of eating protocols use exclusively ie "i'm losing weight, i must be getting healthier"

Yea you've got to look at the bigger picture :lol:

I've decided what I'm going to do. :) The below sounds pretty perfect for me, I'm going to give it a shot. :ugeek:

Allowed
>Pasture Raised dairy (milk, cheese)
>Fruit (blueberries, raspberries, bananas, watermelon, cherries, pears, peaches, mangos, pineapples)
>Pasture Raised ruminant meats (beef, lamb)
>Eggs from pasture raised chickens
>Seafood (lobster, crab, oyster, mussels, sole, cod)
>Saturated oils and fats (coconut oil, macadamia oil, olive oil, butter, beef fat, lamb fat)

Moderation
>Pasture Raised non-ruminant meats (chicken, pork, turkey, duck)
>Tubers, roots, bulbs (carrots, parsnips, beets, potatoes, turnips, onions, garlic)
>Fruit-vegetables (squash, cucumbers, tomatoes, green peas, green beans, zucchini, jalapeños)
>cruciferous vegetables (broccoli, brussel sprouts, cabbage, cauliflower, collards, kale, kohlrabi, chinese cabbage)
>above ground vegetables (broccoli, cauliflower, collard greens, asparagus, brussels sprouts, spinach, lettuce, cabbage)
>Nuts (pitaschios, macadamias, cashews, almonds)
>High-fat fish (salmon, tuna, mackeral)

None
>Legumes (beans, lentils, chickpeas, soybeans, black beans, kidney beans, navy beans)
>Grains (wheat, oats, soybeans, corn)
>All grain-fed meat
>PUFA oils and fats (vegetable, canola, corn, cottonseed, soybean, safflower, sunflower, peanut, grape seed, margarine)
>seeds (sesame seeds, sunflower seeds, chia seeds)
 

tara

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Hi Barbwirehouse,
You get to decide what you want to eat, as Lindsay said.
If it were me, I'd move the fats from allowed to moderation. As zachs said, its good to get lots of carbs in, and ratios matter. If you can't get enough sugar from fruit, consider adding some honey or other sugar source. High fat can mess with energy efficiency (Randle cycle).
Even the ruminant meat fat has a bit of PUFA, so unlimited quantities could get you more PUFA than you want.
I think one of the key points about the above ground vegetables is that you generally reduce their down sides a lot by 'cooking them to death'.
Bananas and pineapples apparently have sigificant serotonin in them. For people who have particular problems relating to high serotonin, or particularly sensitive to it, these may be better in the moderation category. But some people seem to do fine with lots of them. I eat bananas and pineapple from time to time, but not as staples - I had a period of aversion to bananas after eating a lot of them at one stage. Some people have trouble if they eat huge amounts of mango.
I notice your fruit list doesn't include oranges. Peat has said sweet ripe (preferably strained) orange juice is a good source of sugar and minerals. Unless you are intolerant of them, or can't get good oranges/juice.
People who are hypothyroid can have trouble with too much carotene. Personally I can't handle much cooked carrot (thought the grated, rinsed raw carrot salad works for me).
 

cout12

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why is olive and macadamia oil OK? As far as I know monounsaturated fat is still not saturated and is real bad. Same with nuts, fat fish and vegetables. I would get those nutrients from supplements or beef liver.

Also if I were you I would ditch most of these fruits and just drink orange juice. They serve the same purpose and as far as I know orange juice is safer, cheaper and quicker to prepare.

Also the ratio that you eat all these foods is pretty important. I don't know what ratio of protein to sugar ray peat recommends but I personally get like 6+ to 1, and would never go below 4 to 1. I would put powdered sugar in the allowed category, or honey if you want to stick to nature food. And eat unlimited amount of it.

Also I would eat as little fat as possible. Even the most saturated fats like coconut oil still have like 5% unsaturated fats. Beef fat is like 50% unsaturated. In my opinion eating a diet where you get 200g of protein, 200g of sugar and 100g of beef fat is not what ray peat recommends. It's too high fat (50g of unsaturated fats) and protein and too low sugar. It is significantly better than a low carb paleo diet though.

If you're wondering how you're gonna get so much calories from carbs. Just add boiled potatoes. Ray thinks they are safe enough, and they are 0.1% fat and like 8% protein.

Anyway that's my opinion on fruits and monounsaturated fats from what I've read. It might be wrong.
 
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barbwirehouse

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cout12 said:
why is olive and macadamia oil OK? As far as I know monounsaturated fat is still not saturated and is real bad. Same with nuts, fat fish and vegetables. I would get those nutrients from supplements or beef liver.

Also if I were you I would ditch most of these fruits and just drink orange juice. They serve the same purpose and as far as I know orange juice is safer, cheaper and quicker to prepare.

Also the ratio that you eat all these foods is pretty important. I don't know what ratio of protein to sugar ray peat recommends but I personally get like 6+ to 1, and would never go below 4 to 1. I would put powdered sugar in the allowed category, or honey if you want to stick to nature food. And eat unlimited amount of it.

Also I would eat as little fat as possible. Even the most saturated fats like coconut oil still have like 5% unsaturated fats. Beef fat is like 50% unsaturated. In my opinion eating a diet where you get 200g of protein, 200g of sugar and 100g of beef fat is not what ray peat recommends. It's too high fat (50g of unsaturated fats) and protein and too low sugar. It is significantly better than a low carb paleo diet though.

If you're wondering how you're gonna get so much calories from carbs. Just add boiled potatoes. Ray thinks they are safe enough, and they are 0.1% fat and like 8% protein.

Anyway that's my opinion on fruits and monounsaturated fats from what I've read. It might be wrong.

Hey cout12, thanks for your thoughts.

Peat doesn't mind olive oil in moderation and that's filled with MUFA so I would assume he's also fine with macadamia oil in moderation.

From the 20 questions with peat thread here viewtopic.php?f=10&t=4565

sprinter - I would love to hear everything Ray Peat consumes for one week. Including all food and supplements. 10 days would be even better.

Ray Peat - The details vary slightly according to what's available. Daily, milk, fruit (mainly orange juice), eggs, butter, cheese, and coffee. As available, liver, shrimp, squid, oysters, cod, sole, ox-tail soup, chicharrones (puffed pork rind), sapotas, pawpaws, cherimoyas, guanabanas, guavas, carrots, bamboo shoots, small turnips, corundas.

With all those fruits, peat seems to be fine with fruit, although he does say mainly orange juice.
 

Kasra

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And any fruit is far superior to powdered sugar, just on the basis of nutritional adequacy.
 

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