Green Vegetables: How Best To Prepare Them To Get The Most Good And The Least Harm?

tara

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Mar 29, 2014
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10,295
Hi,

I've been wondering about how best to prepare green vegetables to get the most good and the least harm.

I've read from Peat that:
- All green vegetables have some defensive chemicals that can be poisonous for us.
- Well-cooked vegetables can sometimes be a useful source of nutrition, including minerals.
- Broth from well-boiled kale can be useful for vit-K as well as minerals.
- Some vegetables need to be well boiled and then the water discarded.
- There are groups with a diet based on a lot of well-cooked vegetables and some meta, and this can be a healthy diet.

Not from Peat, I've read that:
- Chlorophyll contains magnesium in a form that is very usable for us.
- Eating a wide variety of vegetables can help ensure we get all the trace minerals. Varying them helps prevent problems from eating too much of one thing.

I eat a little boiled green vegetables several times a week, (often in pureed soups with onion, and sometimes garlic, ginger, capsicum, tomato), and seem to feel worse if I miss them for several days in a row. Since reading Peat, I no longer try to eat more than I feel like.

Recently I've have responded to cravings for boiled brocolli, asparagus, courgettes (I know it's a fruit, but the I assume the green in the skin is chlorophyll), and really enjoyed them with butter.

I imagine the benefit and burden depends to some extent on context and the available alternatives, and maybe also on the state of the eater.

I read recently that one of the problems with oxalic acid (spinach and silverbeet/chard?) is that it can leach minerals from the teeth. Since my teeth have never been strong, I wonder if this has been a contributor, and I don't want to make it worse. In the past I've always discarded the water from silverbeet/chard - i had thought that would get rid of quite a bit of the oxalic acid, but I don't really know.
The last couple of times I've cooked spinach, I've added a little baking soda to the water in the hope that that would at least somewhat neutralize the oxalic acid. But I don't want to destroy the value (vit-C-like?) of the cooked onions, and i wonder if the baking soda destroys that too?

Peat has said that it is important to boil brassicas 'to death' to reduce the goitrogens in them. Do the goitrogens get washed out into the water, and discarded when drained, or does the cooking itself render the goitrogens relatively harmless, and so there is some mineral value to be gained from using the cooking water? Are some brassicas more of a problem than others, even if well-cooked?

Which vegetables are more nutritious if they are boiled and the water discarded?
Which are better boiled and the solids discarded?
Which are OK to eat both, as long as they are well cooked?
Which vegetables are more cost than benefit however they are prepared?

Does anyone know much about this? Or seen more detail from Peat on these questions somewhere?
 

Amazoniac

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Sep 10, 2014
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Not Uganda
Hi Tara!

Regarding Oxalic Acid, you can add some of the egg's shell calcium to bind and neutralize some of it.
You can also bring water to a vigorous boil and them scald the leafy greens for 1 minute - generally the water stops boiling when you submerge them; when the water starts boiling again should be enough to remove.
Steaming leafy greens also work. Using a glass lid to see the point when the color is very attractive and bright. The smell shouldn't be that bitter anymore.

Goitrogens, I can't remember the source but steaming lightly, boiling without discarting, boiling and discarting should reduce about 30%, 60% and 90% respectively.

This is pure observational but I find that cabbage is very agressive regarding toxins (even with proper cooking). Test for yourself: cook all of the brassicas separately and then blend to a soup/purée consistency. The cabbage is the only only that will taste bitter, a strong indicator of toxins. Note: very important to blend, otherwise it's unnoticeable.

In terms of choices, the best option you already mentioned: rotate to vary toxins.

Vegetables that are very fibrous should be the best to boil and discart. When you start to break down the fiber and render the nutrients more available, the majority of toxins at this point should be out.
You can boil them twice. A first quick boil just to eliminate most of the toxins and the second to extract nutrients. Higher pressure, temperature and acidity work as catalists. For minerals not a problem to overcook. For vitamins you should balance those aspects to extract the most with the least damage.
Root vegetables and vegetables that contain toxins targeted to smaller predators, not mammals are safer to eat raw and cooked.

Don't fear them, they are also important.
http://www.nautil.us/issue/15/turbulenc ... o-kill-you
 

pboy

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Jan 22, 2013
Messages
1,681
you lose a lot of nutrition, in fact most of the good stuff, if you drain the water. Most of the toxins are in the solid part and only yield out with pressure, like if you squeeze a tea bag...the more bitter comes out, same with green vegetables. I cant think of a good reason to actually eat vegetables unless you had to, using in a broth always seems like a better idea. Some of the toxins come out in a quick boil, like only a couple minutes, but almost all the bioavailable good stuff will, so that's probably the best choice. I used to cook a lot with herbs and vegetables but just went back to my gut feeling, and stopped cause theyre too harsh. The main offense from them is actually the tannins which aren't talked about...you only hear about the other stuff, but tannins are major antinutrients, via binding alkaline minerals (so a lot of the calcium isn't bioavailable in greens) and inhibit trypsin. Some of these bound nutrients can be released in a rumin when bacteria break down the tannins, some of that might go on in human colons but it might take a while to gain a bacteria population that is strong enough, but then that comes with risks. I think brews and broths are the only way to properly use leaves if you want to avoid any (or most) antinutrients. If you get a little it might not be that bad, if you crave them and eat them its probably your body asking for some benefit they give, so they must be at least somewhat bioavailable. Cooking takes out some antinutrients, but not the tannins and not some other stuff 100%...its great for getting out overly spicy ingredients (volatile active chemicals) but the astringent and bitter parts remain, mostly in the deeper parts of the leaf and stem which is why they shoot out when mashed squeezed or chewed
 

tara

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Thanks for your thoughts, Amazoniac and pboy. They seem to conflict. :):

This is a related extract from an interview Sheila found and just posted.
HD: I looked earlier on as I was doing some searching around and saw that the main principle sources of magnesium were nuts and seeds, and I think there were small amounts in soy, but I think principally what would you recommend as a good magnesium source?

RP: Fruit juices and coffee. If you want a really intense source you can boil leaves like kale or beet greens or something for two or three minutes, the green water that comes out quickly is very concentrated in magnesium and calcium. That's a very, pretty safe supplement. Coffee and fruit juices are practical and something you can do every day."
 

pboy

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greens never taste good...iceberg lettuce is the only one that's even refreshing to an extent

I guess some types of tea taste good if you put them with greens, but edible greens...they become at best not as bad, but never actually good..unless I suppose you were fiending for any food you could get
 

tara

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If it doesn't taste good I don't eat it.
 
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One of the reasons I started drinking skim milk again is because I had a hard time eating greens. But both greens and skim milk have something in common. They both have calcium, and some protein (though milk has more), they are both low fat, and I am not getting energy from them, (though maybe more energy from lactose) I'm simply getting calcium from them. The only time I will eat greens now is when I make a large soup. Apparently, out of all of the commonly available leafy greens, spinach is the only one was is "neutral" meaning, you do not get any nutrition out of it because of the oxalic acid. So all of the other ones are fine. A salty, warm soup that has satiating potatoes or rice in it, is really the only way I'll eat greens. But having a soup without starch for me is unsatisfying.
 

EnoreeG

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Apr 27, 2015
Messages
272
tara said:
Hi,

I've been wondering about how best to prepare green vegetables to get the most good and the least harm.

I've read from Peat that:
- All green vegetables have some defensive chemicals that can be poisonous for us.
- Well-cooked vegetables can sometimes be a useful source of nutrition, including minerals.
- Broth from well-boiled kale can be useful for vit-K as well as minerals.
- Some vegetables need to be well boiled and then the water discarded.
- There are groups with a diet based on a lot of well-cooked vegetables and some meta, and this can be a healthy diet.

Not from Peat, I've read that:
- Chlorophyll contains magnesium in a form that is very usable for us.
- Eating a wide variety of vegetables can help ensure we get all the trace minerals. Varying them helps prevent problems from eating too much of one thing.

I eat a little boiled green vegetables several times a week, (often in pureed soups with onion, and sometimes garlic, ginger, capsicum, tomato), and seem to feel worse if I miss them for several days in a row. Since reading Peat, I no longer try to eat more than I feel like.

...
Peat has said that it is important to boil brassicas 'to death' to reduce the goitrogens in them. Do the goitrogens get washed out into the water, and discarded when drained, or does the cooking itself render the goitrogens relatively harmless, and so there is some mineral value to be gained from using the cooking water? Are some brassicas more of a problem than others, even if well-cooked?

Which vegetables are more nutritious if they are boiled and the water discarded?
Which are better boiled and the solids discarded?
Which are OK to eat both, as long as they are well cooked?
Which vegetables are more cost than benefit however they are prepared?

Does anyone know much about this? Or seen more detail from Peat on these questions somewhere?

tara,

I'm not going to give a link to a bunch of scientific papers here, just give you n=1 experience.

I eat greens every day for breakfast. Yes, brassica, whatever. Always steamed and then smothered in organic butter. I have remarkable health for a 72 year old. I'm not afraid of oxalic acid or goitrogens. I drink the water after it has cooled off also, maybe an hour after I eat the greens. I eat a huge salad every day for lunch with both greens and veggie fruits such as tomato in it. My digestion is great, my health is great, and I'm not hypo-T. The only time I eat any meat/cheese/carb-rich veggies is in the evening, except for some Feta on my salad.

I say the whole goitrogen hype is just that. It may be because brassica is actually a selenium accumulator, and if a person is low on iodine, extra selenium can compound the problem for the cells converting T4 to T3. Generally though, there are parts of the country where selenium is low, so people are deficient. There are also parts of the country, like in the Rockies and upper mid-west, where selenium is very high. Read more on brassica and selenium (and other health properties of brassica) here:

http://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/46238/PDF
 

jyb

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UK
tara said:
Which vegetables are more cost than benefit however they are prepared?

It seems like beans are the worse. They are the stereotypical vegetable that give gas, it means they ferment easily and hence serotonin. It also seems to be Ray's favourite example of evil vegetable when talking about this.
 

EnoreeG

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Joined
Apr 27, 2015
Messages
272
Amazoniac said:
Hi Tara!

Regarding Oxalic Acid, you can add some of the egg's shell calcium to bind and neutralize some of it.
You can also bring water to a vigorous boil and them scald the leafy greens for 1 minute - generally the water stops boiling when you submerge them; when the water starts boiling again should be enough to remove.
Steaming leafy greens also work. Using a glass lid to see the point when the color is very attractive and bright. The smell shouldn't be that bitter anymore.

Goitrogens, I can't remember the source but steaming lightly, boiling without discarting, boiling and discarting should reduce about 30%, 60% and 90% respectively.

This is pure observational but I find that cabbage is very agressive regarding toxins (even with proper cooking). Test for yourself: cook all of the brassicas separately and then blend to a soup/purée consistency. The cabbage is the only only that will taste bitter, a strong indicator of toxins. Note: very important to blend, otherwise it's unnoticeable.

In terms of choices, the best option you already mentioned: rotate to vary toxins.

Vegetables that are very fibrous should be the best to boil and discart. When you start to break down the fiber and render the nutrients more available, the majority of toxins at this point should be out.
You can boil them twice. A first quick boil just to eliminate most of the toxins and the second to extract nutrients. Higher pressure, temperature and acidity work as catalists. For minerals not a problem to overcook. For vitamins you should balance those aspects to extract the most with the least damage.
Root vegetables and vegetables that contain toxins targeted to smaller predators, not mammals are safer to eat raw and cooked.

Don't fear them, they are also important.
http://www.nautil.us/issue/15/turbulenc ... o-kill-you

Amazoniac,

I was reading the earlier posts on this vegetable thread and came on yours regarding toxins, and containing the link to the "turbulence" article on phytonutrients, etc. Since you spoke of "toxins" above in what seemed like a "best to avoid these" frame of mind, yet the link you provided seemed to be quite defensive of the assumed "toxins", I'm wondering, Do you have any update on your point of view regarding this subject at this time? I found that article to be quite enlightening, though the science was admitting that it was in it's early stages on the subject of toxins/phytonutrients.

Additional ideas would be appreciated!

BTW, I searched to find out if phytonutrients are materially compromised from heating, and without luck on that so far, I found this article which has a similar slant on the toxins that are of hidden, actual value, are truly the phytonutrients:

http://www.splendidtable.org/story/green-onions-the-unheralded-phytonutrient-rich-super-food

From this, my take away is, if you (or others) are really intent on minimizing the intake of above ground veggies due to your adherence to Peat's ideas, but have some interest in partaking of some phytonutrients, it seems that eating wild plants is a solution. You may get as much as 100 times as much phytonutrients from some wild plants as the domestic ones we find the market, so you can get the benefit from far smaller quantities ingested. That's not me, but for those interested in minimizing greens, this might be of value.
 

narouz

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4,429
jyb said:
tara said:
Which vegetables are more cost than benefit however they are prepared?

It seems like beans are the worse. They are the stereotypical vegetable that give gas, it means they ferment easily and hence serotonin. It also seems to be Ray's favourite example of evil vegetable when talking about this.

You and pboy are of course right on target about Peat and beans.
He said in one interview that "no technology" can make them significantly enough better,
as, for a contrary example, the cooking in lime/ashes can make corn.

That said, beans do not give me gas.
And I love eating them with butter and salt.
I also love the taste of cooked collards and kale, again with some butter and salt.
My instincts and digestion must not've been created in the image of Peat.
A miscreant. :lol:
 

jyb

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narouz said:
That said, beans do not give me gas.
And I love eating them with butter and salt.
I also love the taste of cooked collards and kale, again with some butter and salt.
My instincts and digestion must not've been created in the image of Peat.
A miscreant. :lol:

Oh, well there are several types of beans. Some might have less to ferment on. I sometimes do cooked veges, but I don't notice anything beneficial to my digestion so I don't bother often other than as light condiments to help appreciate meat stews.
 

EnoreeG

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narouz said:
.... That said, beans do not give me gas.
And I love eating them with butter and salt.
I also love the taste of cooked collards and kale, again with some butter and salt.
My instincts and digestion must not've been created in the image of Peat.
A miscreant. :lol:

Ha! I love the "image" analogy!

Beans have never given me gas. I don't eat many dried beans now, but there were months in the distant past when I ate them almost daily for economic reasons. That was when "Diet for a Small Planet" was the big influence to convince people that they were pure thugs if they consumed meat, and offered the balanced amino acid meal plans to help people select beans to go with grains, thus providing similar amino acid mix to meats.

I also remember Adelle Davis, one of the original alternative diet gurus, saying, possibly in "Let's Eat Right to Keep Fit", if you get gas from beans, it's because you aren't eating right. I think she tied the gas to a heavy sugar diet. She was probably referring to what we now know as Small Intestinal Bacterial Overgrowth. I think the causative factors, according to her, were to have a high glucose/fructose/sucrose diet which invites a lot of bacteria into the small intestine. Then eat something with insoluble fiber or resistant starch, fiber which slows everything down. The sugar loving bacteria go nuts and you have gas. For people on a lower sugar diet (not all carbs, just restricting simple sugars), they harbor far fewer bacteria in the small intestine, and they can slow down the passage of a meal through that area by eating way more fiber at times, and never notice a thing. Yes, there's a lot of microbes in the lower gut, but more or less continual fiber boluses just keep them there. Just my guess. I haven't read on this in a while.

jyb said:
Oh, well there are several types of beans.

I ate about 6 different types of beans when I was doing it and there were no differences, at least in the effluvial department, so I think it's more the state of your microbiological mix and where in the gut it's mostly located.

Back to narouz - yeah, I love collards and kale with butter and salt too. I always have some in the garden and even bring them in for part of my nutritious breakfast. ;)
 

narouz

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I should perhaps hasten to clarify that I am not arguing that Peat is wrong. :)
Just noting, honestly, where my instincts and experiences
seem at variance with Peat's recommendations
and with what most here say about Peat's diet being perfectly appetizing and satisfying etc.

So while I have these sinful attractions to evil foods,
I seldom indulge them
and do try to keep to the Peat pathway.

EnoreeG-
Yeah, those books are very familiar to me.
I grew up with them.
Part of their intellectual appeal,
especially Diet for a Small Planet,
was their happy-hippie-New Age ideology
about trying not to kill animals to eat them
and trying to eat in ways that would help the planet and all its peoples etc...
I do mock some, but at the time it was a powerful allure
and still is to some extent.
 

Amazoniac

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EnoreeG said:
Amazoniac said:
Hi Tara!

Regarding Oxalic Acid, you can add some of the egg's shell calcium to bind and neutralize some of it.
You can also bring water to a vigorous boil and them scald the leafy greens for 1 minute - generally the water stops boiling when you submerge them; when the water starts boiling again should be enough to remove.
Steaming leafy greens also work. Using a glass lid to see the point when the color is very attractive and bright. The smell shouldn't be that bitter anymore.

Goitrogens, I can't remember the source but steaming lightly, boiling without discarting, boiling and discarting should reduce about 30%, 60% and 90% respectively.

This is pure observational but I find that cabbage is very agressive regarding toxins (even with proper cooking). Test for yourself: cook all of the brassicas separately and then blend to a soup/purée consistency. The cabbage is the only only that will taste bitter, a strong indicator of toxins. Note: very important to blend, otherwise it's unnoticeable.

In terms of choices, the best option you already mentioned: rotate to vary toxins.

Vegetables that are very fibrous should be the best to boil and discart. When you start to break down the fiber and render the nutrients more available, the majority of toxins at this point should be out.
You can boil them twice. A first quick boil just to eliminate most of the toxins and the second to extract nutrients. Higher pressure, temperature and acidity work as catalists. For minerals not a problem to overcook. For vitamins you should balance those aspects to extract the most with the least damage.
Root vegetables and vegetables that contain toxins targeted to smaller predators, not mammals are safer to eat raw and cooked.

Don't fear them, they are also important.
http://www.nautil.us/issue/15/turbulenc ... o-kill-you

Amazoniac,

I was reading the earlier posts on this vegetable thread and came on yours regarding toxins, and containing the link to the "turbulence" article on phytonutrients, etc. Since you spoke of "toxins" above in what seemed like a "best to avoid these" frame of mind, yet the link you provided seemed to be quite defensive of the assumed "toxins", I'm wondering, Do you have any update on your point of view regarding this subject at this time? I found that article to be quite enlightening, though the science was admitting that it was in it's early stages on the subject of toxins/phytonutrients.

Additional ideas would be appreciated!

BTW, I searched to find out if phytonutrients are materially compromised from heating, and without luck on that so far, I found this article which has a similar slant on the toxins that are of hidden, actual value, are truly the phytonutrients:

http://www.splendidtable.org/story/green-onions-the-unheralded-phytonutrient-rich-super-food

From this, my take away is, if you (or others) are really intent on minimizing the intake of above ground veggies due to your adherence to Peat's ideas, but have some interest in partaking of some phytonutrients, it seems that eating wild plants is a solution. You may get as much as 100 times as much phytonutrients from some wild plants as the domestic ones we find the market, so you can get the benefit from far smaller quantities ingested. That's not me, but for those interested in minimizing greens, this might be of value.

Hi Enoree,

I think that it is impractical for the majority of people to eat wild. But eating on the wild side, just like the book proposes, is a better idea.
Wise farmers know how to grow their produce in synergy; they can manipulate to a certain degree which plants grow better together, yielding better results and even protecting each other from pests.

I don't avoid toxins from vegetables that much, especially below-ground vegetables, that have their toxins targeted more to microorganisms. I just make sure to cook, to rotate and not rely on them for much energy.
 

EnoreeG

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Joined
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Messages
272
Amazoniac said:
Hi Enoree,

I think that it is impractical for the majority of people to eat wild. But eating on the wild side, just like the book proposes, is a better idea.
Wise farmers know how to grow their produce in synergy; they can manipulate to a certain degree which plants grow better together, yielding better results and even protecting each other from pests.

I don't avoid toxins from vegetables that much, especially below-ground vegetables, that have their toxins targeted more to microorganisms. I just make sure to cook, to rotate and not rely on them for much energy.

Thanks, I agree it's impractical for most to "eat wild". If I lived in a city I guess I'd fear eating a dandelion off someone's lawn due to the high chances it's been sprayed with Roundup.

I live in the country, and tend to not pass up a chance to eat anything that even looks like a dandelion, plus all kinds of other weeds that I definitely recognize as safe, including some sorrels that definitely contain oxalic acid and have just another type of bitter taste. I'm totally not cut from Peat cloth as to fear of plant toxins. Of course, I just nibble on these things as I wander toward the garden to pick greens that I eat in much larger quantities. I've read that the oxalates generally only effect the meal and the quantity of food they are contained in, so I don't fear much that I'm losing all the minerals from my food just because I eat some foods (in some meals) that tend to bind minerals. No one is testing, meal by meal to see what is derived (that I know of) and what is lost.

So you can look at this in two ways: positively or negatively. Peats way seems to assume the negative consequences from eating above ground veggies. He has a large following of people who happen to believe that the consideration to have with regard to above ground veggies is a negative one. This discounts all the positives that the same veggies offer. I think the real test should be a scientific determination of what is ingested and then what it does to the body. Do you know of any? This would be expensive and apparently hasn't been done due to the multiple factors involved (negative/toxins vs positive/phytonutrients). Scientific studies tend to want to focus on one factor at a time.

The way I see this is that if you eat a blade of grass, sure, the minerals may be bound by the oxalates and flush out of your system, unused, and other things may provide some poison in some way (I'm ignorant on what this might be though!), but the positive features of the grass are the vitamins, enzymes, etc. which may get assimilated into your body and help your health for days or weeks. These are the features of above ground veggies that I see (and physically feel) as helpful. And I know of no other plant or animal products that offer the same nourishment (high levels of nutrient density) as green leafy veggies.

I admit I'm ignorant on this and could use a lot of help understanding exactly what is dangerous about green leaves. Right now I just go with my gut and my feelings of health, but I'd sure like to learn more about this.

Speaking of "not relying on veggies for much energy", you might be surprised to learn that I feel tremendous emotional, psychic, and physical energy from eating only greens in some meals, of course usually with butter on a cooked portion. My theory is that it's the minimal protein, but maximal vitamins and phytonutrients which my body is starving for, as many things like vitamins can wash out in a day or two. But it could be other factors. I don't know what it is, but the feelings alone tell me to go with my gut feelings.
 
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