Surviving The Night With Good Blood Sugar

[Cirion]

Some people here have success on large amounts of high fat milk too though (But usually, its raw milk and not the garbage whole milk you get in stores which should not be intaken IMO) so its hard to give a blanket strategy to any one person.

All of this is tricky stuff because everyone is at different stages of health and unhealthy, then you compound that with the eating disorder websites that tell you to expect and embrace the bloat that comes when refeeding, all the while the uncertainty of is this bloat gonna last just a few months or years or what... then you hear it takes years to purge your body of toxins and pufa's then it can be disheartening at times, but I'm all in at this point because the only other option is to give up.

On the bright side, I'll have a heck of a story to write once I'm healed. Maybe I'll write a book like Nathan hatch did lol

 

[Runenight201]

I know you like your meat and eggs but they are just too "heavy" for me and torporific for me. Every time I try to bring back meat it ends up going badly for me. I'm actually glad I have switched to milk for my protein, it seems to be much lighter. To each their own, though. No starch for this guy either, possibly I haven't been quite prepared the mright, but I don't really miss them all that much.

It’s quite ironic (apologies if I use this incorrectly, I’ve always struggled with irony) because a couple months ago I had mentioned to you to cut out meat and eggs for weight, and you were reluctant to do so. How our opinions change lol

Yea I’m picky about my meat. Gotta be certain cuts, cooked correctly, right amount of salt/spices, etc... but I for sure wouldn’t be as healthy without it.

@Runenight201 I think its probably different for everyone to an extent... I don't crave fat at all and I feel great when it's very very low. I keep trying to up fat intake but it's driven by discipline and it doesn't feel right for me (at this time). And this is on top of the weight loss benefits. My sugar intake is very high though, up to a kilo a day. Mood is usually euphoric and no issues with satiation. Saturated fats can be synthesized from sugars. Ray's fat intake the past 5 years or so has been at about only 60 grams per day. Mines lower for now.
.

There’s probably some biological/metabolic differences between individuals that allow them to handle different types of foods in differing amounts. Gut biome is probably involved, as well as the amount of enzymes present to handle the different foods.

 

[Cirion]

Allright, I think you're right on the tryptophan. Changing my mind yet again on milk LOL. I had a ton of skim milk before bed last night and my morning temp tanked this morning (97.9F compared to the 98+ I was getting), have light bags under my eyes etc feeling drugged etc.

After reading up on gelatin, now plan to mix in gelatin any time I have milk, see if that helps. Going to aim for at least 60 gram of gelatin a day.

I think it is not more protein I needed per-se, but better amino acids.

In fact, Ray Peat says that more protein can be detrimental not helpful if the amino acids are bad. He writes that bad amino acids can CAUSE muscle pains and whatnot (BTW I have some chronic annoying pain in my back muscles - probably the high serotonin, which high tryptophan intake will NOT be helping, and which gelatin should help according to him)

Since excess tryptophan is known to produce muscle pain, myositis, even muscular dystrophy, gelatin is an appropriate food for helping to correct those problems, simply because of its lack of tryptophan. (Again, the popular nutritional idea of amino acids as simply building blocks for tissues is exactly wrong--muscle protein can exacerbate muscle disease.) All of the conditions involving excess prolactin, serotonin, and cortisol (autism, postpartum and premenstrual problems, Cushing's disease, "diabetes," impotence, etc.) should benefit from reduced consumption of tryptophan. But the specifically antiinflammatory amino acids in gelatin also antagonize the excitatory effects of the tryptophan-serotonin-estrogen- prolactin system.

RP somewhere says that 30% of protein by gelatin can be helpful. Haven't found this quote yet, but that's what Haidut did with his infamous 1500T+ protocol, so I think there is something to this.

Anyone else here annoyed at themselves for "forgetting" about core peat principles and find themselves back at them? lol

 

[tankasnowgod]

Allright, I think you're right on the tryptophan. Changing my mind yet again on milk LOL. I had a ton of skim milk before bed last night and my morning temp tanked this morning (97.9F compared to the 98+ I was getting), have light bags under my eyes etc feeling drugged etc.

After reading up on gelatin, now plan to mix in gelatin any time I have milk, see if that helps. Going to aim for at least 60 gram of gelatin a day.

I think it is not more protein I needed per-se, but better amino acids.

In fact, Ray Peat says that more protein can be detrimental not helpful if the amino acids are bad. He writes that bad amino acids can CAUSE muscle pains and whatnot (BTW I have some chronic annoying pain in my back muscles - probably the high serotonin, which high tryptophan intake will NOT be helping, and which gelatin should help according to him)

RP somewhere says that 30% of protein by gelatin can be helpful. Haven't found this quote yet, but that's what Haidut did with his infamous 1500T+ protocol, so I think there is something to this.

Anyone else here annoyed at themselves for "forgetting" about core peat principles and find themselves back at them? lol

Hey, I've been there. Protein is good, but carbs will always spare protein, since you don't waste amino acids in gluconeogenesis. So, you can have a lower protein intake (but still near 100g, like Peat recommends), and still get similar (or even better) muscle building benefits than a low carb/ high protein approach.

After that, I think the problems with protein come down to some problematic amino acids (tryptophan, cysteine, methionine, and histidine). You don't want any of those levels to be zero, but most people have high levels of them, so efforts to minimize are good. In fact, taking complementary aminos can make those more useful (like getting extra beta alanine to comebine with hidtidine to make carnosine).

After that, the only issue is potential ammonia levels. So, work to improve kidney and level function, and things like B1, biotin, zinc and ornithine can also help directly.

Having said that, if you can up protein while addressing those two issues, I think it tends to be beneficial. Gelatin is great for this. But also, check out the amino breakdown of common muscle meats. I know Peat and others in the blogosphere have cautioned about problematic aminos, but every time I look them up, most cuts of beef, and even chicken, look pretty solid in terms of ratios. Gelatin and the other complementary aminos that Haidut talked about in the modified MAP thread make them even better.

And even with all that said, I think some periods of protein cycling (going very low protein for 18-24 hours) at some interval can be very beneficial. Like a quick ammonia detox.

 

[ilikecats]

I don’t think reducing milk intake is a good idea... the calcium content helps divert the tryptophan away from the the serotonin pathway and towards niacin. Obviously ray doesn’t really think it’s an issue since he himself drank a gallon a day for decades and even went as high as 1.5 gallons a day. The net serotonin from a protein deficiency is much greater than that derived from a decent tryptophan intake. Adding in gelatin is a great idea though and it should lower serotonin regardless of the tryptophan content of the diet. And once again protein intake needs to be adjusted proportionally for ones body weight, Ray weighs 175 you weigh 270. A gallon of milk is 128 grams of protein.., 1.5 gallons is 192 grams of protein. And hypothyroidism makes it harder to properly absorb all the protein you’re eating. You’re most likely protein deficient, but yes protein quality does matter (milk is a high quality protein source).

The inability to make accurate assessments of reality and create valid problem solving solutions are really some of the most damaging (and common) effects of hypothyroidism on the mind. I see it constantly on this forum.

 

[Cirion]

I don't think Peat recommends 100g protein does he? He himself says he often doesn't feel right under 150g. Anyway I weigh way more than he does, so I think I need probably at least 200. BUT from quality sources (plenty of gelatin).

I don't think focusing too much on beef or chicken etc is wise. True it is lower tryptophan but also high in phosphorus and low in calcium. I'm starting to run into the same issues again that I did first time peating haha. It's difficult to balance ALL the parameters that are required. tryptophan is just one of many.

Today for the milk I brought to work (in four separate glass containers, 72 oz total) I put 1 TBSP of gelatin in ea ch container, let's see how I feel from doing that.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion yeah gelatin is great I’d recommend dissolving it in very hot water. I used to use cold water and eat it like jello but the gelatin doesn’t dissolve all the way using that method and it can harm digestion. Also what’s your salt intake like? Salt is everything in my experience

 

[Cirion]

I eat a pretty respectable amount of salt. I salt almost all my fruit. I was putting salt in liquids but haven't been doing that as much, although I still sometimes salt OJ. May start increasing my salt again given that I drink more liquids now.

Am curious to see my waking temp tomorrow with the addition of gelatin.

With several nights now with the light on, am not sure if it's really helping me. I wake up multiple times in the night now...

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion are you using the 300w bulb at night? That’s a lot. You might want to start with something smaller like a 60w bulb. Or use something like a salt lamp or a light that gives off only light from the red orange spectrum. Like I said the lightbulbs I have work for me but they give off a little blue light so they might not be ideal for some people for sleeping. The point is to get some amount of some type of light going in the room while sleeping to suppress the pituitary and keep cortisol at bay. It’s been pretty common throughout history to keep a candle lit in the room while asleep. And kids often prefer to sleep with a night light on which I think is telling. But I still think that using a larger amount of incandescent light during the day would be a game changer. Let us know how that goes if you give it a whirl. I feel I was in a similar situation as you are it was very difficult to get things moving in the right direction and I was diligent just as you are. Everything else just barely nudges things in the right direction (I’ve tried everything) large amounts of 130v incandescents were a huge leap for me and they continue to be.

 

[Cirion]

Yeah you're right maybe it is too much lol. I have some salt lamps, I will try that instead tonight. I used to like sleeping with a night light myself as a kid, I also instinctively ate more sugar as a kid.... man, kids really are smarter than adults in some ways LOL. As adults we get "smart" and eat salads, avoid sugar... and then wonder why we feel soooo bad and tired all the time...

UGH I know what you mean. Everything gets pushed sooo slowly in the right direction it gets so painful and sometimes you wonder if you're improving. But truth be told I maintain a 98.6F temperature way easier than I did in the past (though it still takes effort and if I screw up and don't eat right, it still drops).

 

[Waremu]

I don’t think reducing milk intake is a good idea... the calcium content helps divert the tryptophan away from the the serotonin pathway and towards niacin. Obviously ray doesn’t really think it’s an issue since he himself drank a gallon a day for decades and even went as high as 1.5 gallons a day. The net serotonin from a protein deficiency is much greater than that derived from a decent tryptophan intake. Adding in gelatin is a great idea though and it should lower serotonin regardless of the tryptophan content of the diet. And once again protein intake needs to be adjusted proportionally for ones body weight, Ray weighs 175 you weigh 270. A gallon of milk is 128 grams of protein.., 1.5 gallons is 192 grams of protein. And hypothyroidism makes it harder to properly absorb all the protein you’re eating. You’re most likely protein deficient, but yes protein quality does matter (milk is a high quality protein source).

The inability to make accurate assessments of reality and create valid problem solving solutions are really some of the most damaging (and common) effects of hypothyroidism on the mind. I see it constantly on this forum.

Not only is the calcium great at diverting tryptophan away from the serotonin pathway, but the casien in the milk itself also has a favorable effect on diverting tryptophan from the serotonin pathway in the gut. So there is more of a 'double whammy' effect on net serotonin. This is why even the state tryptophan ratio in milk relative to other proteins I don't take at face value, due to the digestion of the milk proteins over other proteins.

I didn't handle milk very well at first and did well on potatoes and white rice, but as my metabolism improved and PUFA stores decreased, into 2-3 years Peating, I noticed starch bothering me more and endotoxin symptoms, as well as serotonin. A lot of heart burn from starch as well. As I got endotoxin and gut health under control, by throwing starch out, and cleaning out the gut with carrots and other natural anti-biotics, I was able to handle milk very well. Mainly raw milk. When I was newer to Peat, I always thought Ray could be wrong on the milk part due to my bad experience, but after that experience of healing, I knew it was me, not the milk. Danny Roddy had the same experience. Mine matches his exactly. I think ones ability to handle milk is a good measure of health, much like ones ability to handle caffeine is a good general measure of liver health. My ability to handle milk and caffeine both have been correlated with my health improvement and decreasing PUFA over the last 7 years of Peating. I love my raw milk. Huge staple of my diet,

 

[Cirion]

I got 98.3F waking temp this morning!

I stayed up waaay too late last night though, which means I'm probably screwed tomorrow lol.

Changes: Less PUFA, less dietary fat, more protein, more carbs. Yesterday did 100g fat, 200g protein, 800g carbs. Pounded those carbs like no tomorrow LOL. Lots of OJ, mountains of 1% milk, maple syrup. salted some of the OJ. Some coconut oil, and a small piece of cheddar cheese w/ salted OJ when I woke up middle of the night (I find solid food more satisfying when trying to get back to bed). only 4 gram pufa which is not too bad with 5000 calories.

Funny how I go back full circle to the OJ and milk diet, and maybe it actually does work... Though with addition of LOTS of maple syrup also.

I had too much energy with 800g carbs which is why I stayed up too late. I think the trick is to maybe intake more earlier in the day. If I recall correctly last time I had a little success doing this I went as high as 1000g carb, so, I'm (re) discovering that carbs are the answer, and pufa are not.

 

[Cirion]

98.4F on a Monday morning. Possibly the highest I have ever achieved on a Monday no less. Don't get me wrong, I could have easily slept a few more hours, but this is still a major accomplishment.

-> Increased protein (mostly milk) & added some gelatin with each "meal" of milk
-> Increased carbs
-> Decreased fats, with an emphasis of decrease of PUFA
-> Started sleeping in 70-75F room (a 10F increase from my typical 60-65F sleeping)
-> Leave at least a dim salt lamp in the sleeping environment

Macros approx.~ 100g fat (4g pufa or less generally) 200g protein 800g carb. I keep trying to drop below 100g fat but I don't quite feel right whenever I try to.

Funny, how most the dietary recommendations of these are basically recommended by Peat to do and yet we forget the basics so many times.

BTW - another thing that is important to note. I was starting to get back pains. Last 2-3 days I have woken up with zero back pain. I think I can thank both the gelatin & the increased carbs for this. I have noticed that increased carbs tend to have an anti-inflammatory effect for me.

WIth this, it's clear I'm on the right track now.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion Awesome! Glad you're making some good progress bro.

 

[Cirion]

So my temps are slightly better usually 98F+ now. Sleeping in 70-75F room. Dim light in room at the very least. But now I'm waking up every 2-3 hrs and not feeling rested waking up, though my temps are 98-98.4 waking up. Throws my whole day off. Don't feel awake until late evening, after literally 600-800+ grams of carbs, even though I can generally get my temps to 98.6F before noon. Simply can't become a morning person no matter what I seem to try. The only way is for me to get 12+ hours of sleep, which is impossible because I finally get energy in the evening, only to not be able to get to bed any earlier than 11pm or even midnight, which then makes it impossible to get the 12 hr sleep I want, which repeats the cycle.

Really starting to be at a loss. My ability to even work is struggling, and I am VERY much dreading not one but two work trips coming up very soon, I hate traveling, it is very exhausting to me, and if I can't even get good rest in my own bed I'm screwed in a hotel bed. Last work trip I took was horrible, I felt like a ZOMBIE the whole time. Should I bring back the bright lights in the bedroom? That really wasn't any better though. Sleep was still super fragmented then. I have anxiety about the work trip(s) because hotel rooms often have high EMF also plus worrying about catered food (which is usually pufa filled trash, the last thing I need in my current state of health) ETC...

The only way I can recover is basically complete bed-rest and NO activity, which is simply impossible because of work. Maybe if I could just take 6 months off work, and if it wasn't winter, that'd make a HUGE difference... Wind chill was -20F yesterday, not at all conducive to thyroid health...

Current diet is 60% carb 20% fat 20% protein, skim/1% milk, maple syrup, gelatin, OJ, fruit, occasional cheese, coconut oil, MCT oil. 5000+ calories a day. Have to have at least 5000 cals or my temps tank. I get some recovery during the weekend when I can be sedentary and sleep all day, but then the workweek reverses my recovery...

thinking going back to lots of liquids isn't the greatest, but it seems impossible to go high protein and low PUFA without a lot of liquids (I do have plenty of fruit where I can). I think going low pufa trumps everything else, so I have to suffer through it for now.

 

[Whichway?]

What’s the theory behind the lights at night? That darkness put you into a serotonin state, which is bad? I wouldn’t have light above the level of light you get from sleeping under the stars. Even bright moonlight we would have only been exposed to once a month.

Everything else your doing diet wise seems good and you’ve been refining that for some time. Can you get lots of bright light, coffee, exercise in the morning to stimulate your system?

Vitamin b12 is involved in circadian rhythm so it might be worth a try of methyl or hydroxy cobalamin, but just be careful with it as it can greatly speed up your need for potassium and after a few days, folate.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion i still think that sleeping 12 hours is inherently problematic I'm not sure why you're so set on doing that. Rays never suggested that once as a valid method for solving hypothyroid issues. Metabolism is always suppresed during sleep. Seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion i still think that sleeping 12 hours is inherently problematic I'm not sure why you're so set on doing that. Rays never suggested that once as a valid method for solving hypothyroid issues. Metabolism is always suppresed during sleep. Seems like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

can't help it, it's the only way I feel alive. Weekends and evenings are the only time I find life is actually remotely interesting, because that is when I actually am energized and full of glucose presumably. This makes it hard to want to go to bed early, and this ends up repeating my cycle - stay up late, can't wake up early. etc

On only 8 hours of sleep I feel like a train wreck like I only slept 4 hrs, I need 10 pretty much minimum. presumably in part because I wake up every 2-3 hr at night so I do not get good sleep

anyway, sleep is supposed to protect against the stress of night (Which ray says) and it's my opinion that during the winter, one should actually sleep 12-14 hr a day, because that's how long the sun is down in the winter. Just my opinion tho... I think humans were meant to wake up with the sun and sleep when the sun is down... Working a 9-5 job during the winter is 100% unnatural and probably contributes to so many of our problems in modern society

 

[Whichway?]

can't help it, it's the only way I feel alive. Weekends and evenings are the only time I find life is actually remotely interesting, because that is when I actually am energized and full of glucose presumably.

Sounds more like you need to change your job to something that you find stimulating and challenging. I'm like you. I find work like prison and live for my pursuits outside of work. If you can you are better to try find a way to make a living by doing what you love.

 

[Cirion]

Sounds more like you need to change your job to something that you find stimulating and challenging. I'm like you. I find work like prison and live for my pursuits outside of work. If you can you are better to try find a way to make a living by doing what you love.

I find that to only be partially true. I HAVE in the past had brief moments in time where I have been healthy, and the exact same work actually became interesting to me, because I was healthy. I think when we're unhealthy we tend to have a harder time getting a dopamine "rush", and thus we are "pickier" about what work we find interesting. A lot of people would say a simple life in a small town baking bread for a living would be boring, but would it be if you were really healthy? Most people in the modern life are "addicted" to stress, and only pursue careers that are stressful, just look at just about all careers today being moderately to extremely stressful... doctors, lawyers, engineers.... just to name a couple