Surviving The Night With Good Blood Sugar

[Kelj]

An article called "Symptom Questions" by the Eating Disorder Institute, addresses the symptom of insomnia in eating disorder recovery. The article says you must increase your calorie intake until you do sleep well. That doesn't mean your calorie intake just before bed or when you wake in the night, but total calories eaten all day. Consistent eating during the day is what fixes, not only insomnia, but weight problems, thyroid problems, temperature regulation, and anything else. I quote an article addressing eating disorder recovery because most people these days have disordered eating. You mention you are over weight which is a sure sign you are malnourished. Ray talks about a lack of food being stressful for your body. It is the modern mantra to "eat less and exercise more" to achieve a normal weight. This advice is causing a myriad of health problems, including obesity. Haidut once informed us of articles relating to bear hibernation. Bear, in their normal state, hibernate in the winter, when they live off their fat stores. Using fat for energy while consuming nothing means they are "fat burning", not "glucose burning", the bear have "diabetes", naturally during hibernation. The body is conserving the glucose. When the bear wake up in spring, they begin eating again. The "diabetes" goes away. Because they were not eating for so long, when they do start eating, they store fat, which for a bear is absolutely normal. They have to live off their fat stores again next winter. Humans are creating this cycle by understating. A better way to say it is, overweight people eat ENOUGH inconsistently. When they do consume enough calories, the body stores the energy to protect against the next day's famine when that person decides they ate too much the day before and they are going to " be good" today and have a salad. They have been brainwashed by the unscientific idea that if we eat all we want consistently, we will become fat.
What does this have to do with sleeping? Your body will keep waking you up to eat, if you have not consumed enough throughout the day. What is enough? If you have been restricting and/or over exercising, enough is much more than you can imagine. The body heals at night. You use most of your calories when you are lying still. If you have been restricting, you have accumulated damage in your body. You simply haven't had enough energy or raw materials like vitamins and minerals to do the "remodeling" Ray speaks of on a regular basis. You need to take in a considerable amount of extra calories to make up for the amount of damage that's been done and restore normal metabolism.
Billy Craig has been spoken of on this forum in the past. He found that consistently eating 6,000 calories throughout the day made him lose weight. I have experienced the same. My sleep has improved too. Anyone I have counseled along these lines has experienced the same weight loss.
If you wake up, eat. Keep eating the next day. Keep at it until you find out how much you need to eat to sleep consistently. Don't worry about what you are eating. Calorie density will help you.

 

[tankasnowgod]

But to answer the question, lately my diet mostly consists of fruit (grapes primarily, with some oranges, apples, pears), OJ, skim & 1% milk, maple syrup, goat cheese, beef, some butter, coconut oil, MCT oil, gelatin, salt. Was eating sweet potatoes but trying to go to zero starch lately. I eat regularly, always at least something right upon waking, and keep blood sugar and temps up clear up until I go to bed.

I think I'm doing it mostly right with foods because my pulses and temps are good for virtually the whole day. It's just that it doesn't last through the night, even when I have something upon waking that is RP approved (sugar, salt, saturated fats...)

Personally, I am doing zero starch, zero alcohol, and zero liquid milk at the moment. I am still eating dairy that mostly has casein protein (cheeses and yogurt), but milk and whey have the highest tryptophan content of natural proteins. 2-3 times the amount compared to other protein sources. Regular milk seems like it can cause weight gain and stall weight loss for so many people here, and if it causing extra serotonin production, it really makes sense. It you look at many of the threads where people have gotten really easy weight loss (maybe "effortless" or "without counting calories" are better terms) here on the forum (including kreeese, haidut, and Nate Hatch), ditching starch and liquid milk/whey is a recurring theme. Others that use milk and have success, like Amarsh123, take steps to reduce tryptophan ratio (like adding gelatin) and preventing conversion to serotonin (like adding salt). He mentioned he poured some milk out, and added gelatin and salt here- How Did You Lose Weight On A Ray Peat Diet?

"Milk. Another key. pour some out. Add a table spoon of gelatin in hot water and decent amount of salt, mix let cool. Pour into milk gallon with honey to taste. Drink instead of water. 1% or skim if u can handle it."

The other issue I can see with skim or 1% milk is that you miss out on the antiseptic effects of the saturated fats. Again, maybe leading to more serotonin production from that excess tryptophan.

 

[YourUniverse]

An article called "Symptom Questions" by the Eating Disorder Institute, addresses the symptom of insomnia in eating disorder recovery. The article says you must increase your calorie intake until you do sleep well. That doesn't mean your calorie intake just before bed or when you wake in the night, but total calories eaten all day. Consistent eating during the day is what fixes, not only insomnia, but weight problems, thyroid problems, temperature regulation, and anything else. I quote an article addressing eating disorder recovery because most people these days have disordered eating. You mention you are over weight which is a sure sign you are malnourished. Ray talks about a lack of food being stressful for your body. It is the modern mantra to "eat less and exercise more" to achieve a normal weight. This advice is causing a myriad of health problems, including obesity. Haidut once informed us of articles relating to bear hibernation. Bear, in their normal state, hibernate in the winter, when they live off their fat stores. Using fat for energy while consuming nothing means they are "fat burning", not "glucose burning", the bear have "diabetes", naturally during hibernation. The body is conserving the glucose. When the bear wake up in spring, they begin eating again. The "diabetes" goes away. Because they were not eating for so long, when they do start eating, they store fat, which for a bear is absolutely normal. They have to live off their fat stores again next winter. Humans are creating this cycle by understating. A better way to say it is, overweight people eat ENOUGH inconsistently. When they do consume enough calories, the body stores the energy to protect against the next day's famine when that person decides they ate too much the day before and they are going to " be good" today and have a salad. They have been brainwashed by the unscientific idea that if we eat all we want consistently, we will become fat.
What does this have to do with sleeping? Your body will keep waking you up to eat, if you have not consumed enough throughout the day. What is enough? If you have been restricting and/or over exercising, enough is much more than you can imagine. The body heals at night. You use most of your calories when you are lying still. If you have been restricting, you have accumulated damage in your body. You simply haven't had enough energy or raw materials like vitamins and minerals to do the "remodeling" Ray speaks of on a regular basis. You need to take in a considerable amount of extra calories to make up for the amount of damage that's been done and restore normal metabolism.
Billy Craig has been spoken of on this forum in the past. He found that consistently eating 6,000 calories throughout the day made him lose weight. I have experienced the same. My sleep has improved too. Anyone I have counseled along these lines has experienced the same weight loss.
If you wake up, eat. Keep eating the next day. Keep at it until you find out how much you need to eat to sleep consistently. Don't worry about what you are eating. Calorie density will help you.

Eating more calories to achieve healthy body weight/lose weight has never worked for me, or anyone I know. Your post is the type that enticed people like me to try and eat ravenously to lose, and only the opposite occurs.

 

[Cirion]

@Kelj Yes I have heard that before. And actually it worked decently, the first go around, and now not as much. I will admit in the context of what you said its probably partly due to the fact I went on basically another harsh calorie deficit because I didn't like that I was gaining weight the first go around.

The thing is I have gained EIGHTY (yes 80) pounds the second go around on a RP inspired diet in just a 4 month span. I simply cannot afford to gain any more. Plus, I already consistently eat 4000-5000 calories while sedentary. I see no reason why I should need more... especially when I'm sedentary AND already basically obese. What I have done though is try to drop some dietary fat and replace it with carbohydrate. The impression may have been gotten by some reading this that I've dropped calories, which isn't really the case. I think replacing dietary fat with carbohydrate SHOULD help me out.

I am trying to transition to a more 60 C / 20 P / 20 F macro breakdown. I was something more like 40 C / 20 P/ 40 F before. Not only does this bring my total fat intake down, it also brings my PUFA's down. Anything lower than 20% fat does not end well for me, and I become ravenously hungry, so that's the lowest I can afford to go.

 

[Cirion]

Personally, I am doing zero starch, zero alcohol, and zero liquid milk at the moment. I am still eating dairy that mostly has casein protein (cheeses and yogurt), but milk and whey have the highest tryptophan content of natural proteins. 2-3 times the amount compared to other protein sources. Regular milk seems like it can cause weight gain and stall weight loss for so many people here, and if it causing extra serotonin production, it really makes sense. It you look at many of the threads where people have gotten really easy weight loss (maybe "effortless" or "without counting calories" are better terms) here on the forum (including kreeese, haidut, and Nate Hatch), ditching starch and liquid milk/whey is a recurring theme. Others that use milk and have success, like Amarsh123, take steps to reduce tryptophan ratio (like adding gelatin) and preventing conversion to serotonin (like adding salt). He mentioned he poured some milk out, and added gelatin and salt here- How Did You Lose Weight On A Ray Peat Diet?

"Milk. Another key. pour some out. Add a table spoon of gelatin in hot water and decent amount of salt, mix let cool. Pour into milk gallon with honey to taste. Drink instead of water. 1% or skim if u can handle it."

The other issue I can see with skim or 1% milk is that you miss out on the antiseptic effects of the saturated fats. Again, maybe leading to more serotonin production from that excess tryptophan.

I drink milk now to bring PUFA down which I think is more important than anything else IMO. Too much cheese has too much dietary fat if you use it for your primary protein source. Only drinking skim milk and 1% milk gets you high dietary protein without too much dietary fat or PUFA's. I am trying to get to where I am <4G pufa a day while moderately high on protein. Also I rarely drink milk by itself. Right now for instance I am having 1% milk with salted grapes.

Also IMO from what I have learned now as long as you have enough sugar with tryptophan, it will convert to niacin and not serotonin - so not too worried about it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I drink milk now to bring PUFA down which I think is more important than anything else IMO. Too much cheese has too much dietary fat if you use it for your primary protein source. Only drinking skim milk and 1% milk gets you high dietary protein without too much dietary fat or PUFA's. I am trying to get to where I am <4G pufa a day while moderately high on protein. Also I rarely drink milk by itself. Right now for instance I am having 1% milk with salted grapes.

Also IMO from what I have learned now as long as you have enough sugar with tryptophan, it will convert to niacin and not serotonin - so not too worried about it.

Well, okay, but you mentioned before you're getting coached by Nate Hatch, and he said this previously-

My RESULTS-IN-6-MONTHS Plan

"2.) High Protein intake from low tryptophan sources (I use casein to make this easier. NOT milk.). Minimum 100 g a day but generally 150-200 g"

 

[Cirion]

That looks to be an old post. That's not what he says in his book. Though he does still like his casein, he has a whole chapter in FPC about dairy and also talks many times about how its sugar that causes tryptophan to become niacin in his book.

In any case I no longer am coaching with him, because I've gotten about as much knowledge as I can from him. I think I got frustrated when I told him my temps were stalling and he told me basically "that's just how it goes in the winter" and I refused to accept that lol

I think I will try the suggestion to increase calories and see how sleep improves (or not). Yeah I'm already super overweight, but what's another lb or two more, eh? Not much to lose. Tired of my stalling, so I'm gonna try it.

 

[tankasnowgod]

That looks to be an old post. That's not what he says in his book. Though he does still like his casein, he has a whole chapter in FPC about dairy and also talks many times about how its sugar that causes tryptophan to become niacin in his book.

In any case I no longer am coaching with him, because I've gotten about as much knowledge as I can from him. I think I got frustrated when I told him my temps were stalling and he told me basically "that's just how it goes in the winter" and I refused to accept that lol

I think I will try the suggestion to increase calories and see how sleep improves (or not). Yeah I'm already super overweight, but what's another lb or two more, eh? Not much to lose. Tired of my stalling, so I'm gonna try it.

Yes, it was an older quote. That's also a quote from right after he lost/was losing weight, not later when he was selling a book.

Anyway, if you continue to see no progress on the weight loss front, or continue to gain, you may want to revisit the milk/tryptophan issue at some point.

Last thing, if you go to the wikipedia Tryptophan page, and sort by Tryptophan as a percentage of protein, you'll see milk right at the top. You can verify this by checking tables that break down amino acids.

Tryptophan - Wikipedia

 

[Cirion]

I definitely do feel a tryptophan effect if I don't have enough sugar with milk, I can say that for sure.

I should note that I've only just switched over to milk like a week ago. I in fact was getting most of my protein from cheese before, and I believe that's what was making me fat. Also my overall protein intake may have been a bit on the low side as a result (Goat cheese in particular is like 16g protein 32g fat per 4 oz, so loading up on that for protein is a poor idea if you want to keep fat down to a certain level and thus the randle cycle).

I now tend to think the Randle cycle hits you harder if you're hypothyroid, but that you have a high fat appetite when you're hypothyroid, so its a MASSIVE catch 22 situation. I think the solution (hopefully) is what I'm doing now... bring fats down as low *as I can tolerate* but not too low, and make sure fats I do have are super low or even zero in PUFA while bumping up carbs a lot to help both with glucose stores and also to make sure calories are still high enough.

I have actually noticed my fat appetite drop slightly, which helps to make this a LITTLE bit easier. I was munching on a block of cheese the other evening and realized "I don't want the rest of this" and left it un-eaten.

 

[Cirion]

I do try to get a least 2-4 tbsp. a day of coconut oil for the SFA's / antiseptic properties. I have verified RP's view on them - they are strongly antiseptic, I get a bowel movement almost every time I have at least a TBSP of it within 15 minutes or less.

 

[Runenight201]

I do try to get a least 2-4 tbsp. a day of coconut oil for the SFA's / antiseptic properties. I have verified RP's view on them - they are strongly antiseptic, I get a bowel movement almost every time I have at least a TBSP of it within 15 minutes or less.

Makes me want to bring back the carrot salad. I honestly enjoyed the taste of shredded carrots, salt, coconut oil, and vinegar. I might enhance the salad with tomatoes and bell peppers. It might just be the vinegar that I thoroughly enjoy, always settled nicely in my gut.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion whats your total protein intake per day and body weight? I think Body weight needs to really be taken into account when finding the optimal protein intake.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion calcium intake is important for weight loss. Ray went as far to say this was the most important factor in weight loss although i think that could be an exaggeration. I'd recommend atleast a gallon of skim milk a day if you're not already doing that.

 

[Cirion]

@Cirion whats your total protein intake per day and body weight? I think Body weight needs to really be taken into account when finding the optimal protein intake.

I was doing something like 100-150g a day because although my calorie intake was high, a lot of it came from very high fat foods like goat cheese so my overall protein intake wasn't as good as it could have been. I have been trying (not always successful) to get at least 150-200 a day now, which has been easier as I eat more lean protein sources like 1% and even skim milk. My body weight is now around 270 lb in the morning.

I actually think a good amount of that weight is water weight when I think about it, because I don't have the typical "Look" that someone who weighs 270 lb does, as a good amount of it is fairly lean mass everywhere except my belly, which looks more "Bloated" than it does "fat", if that makes sense. I actually can still wear size 38 pants which isn't too incredibly bad. It's weird, I look really strange for sure. I'm not kidding myself though, I do know I gained a lot of fat too though.

@Cirion calcium intake is important for weight loss. Ray went as far to say this was the most important factor in weight loss although i think that could be an exaggeration. I'd recommend atleast a gallon of skim milk a day if you're not already doing that.

Where did he say this about calcium? Curious if you can dig up the quote. Does he think overall intake calcium matters the most or more so the calcium:phosphorus ratio?

I actually am starting to push towards around a gallon of milk a day now, though more 1% milk than skim milk as I don't want to go ZERO fat. Also decided to focus on 1% milk after reading that most people seem to do better on 1% (I suspect because skim milk has added fat soluble vitamins in them, which may cause digestive distress with no dietary fat alongside it, plus I'm not a fan of zero fat diets). A gallon of milk at 1% is still only like 33g of fat so that's not really an issue IMO and if I recall, 1% is Ray's choice as well.

 

[ilikecats]

@Cirion yeah I'd put consuming more protein higher up on the list... ray said he needed 150 grams to feel optimal and he weighs 175 lbs... that's 1.87 grams per kilogram of body weight and that lines up with studies i've seen on muscle building and protein intake (where 1.8 g/kg was the cut off point for increased muscle gains). His 150 grams of protein would be 229.5 grams for you. Protein intake is so incredibly important... It was a huge epiphany for me to realize that and it took awhile even though I had always read about the importance of a high protein intake. Ray says one of the primary causes of hypothyroidism is a protein deficiency... thats pretty amazing if you really think about it. I can't find the calcium quote now but I'm 100 percent sure he said that and it was pretty much how i said it, it was just one sentence. The ratio and the total amount are both important. I think probably the total amount is more important as long as the ratio is relatively optimal. Rays diet shows this I think, he rarely ever hits the 2:1 ratio he talks about... milk is 1.3:1 here are some quotes.

"RP: Probably the long-range optimum is something like that in milk, somewhere between a ratio of 1:1 up to maybe even 2:1 in favor of calcium to phosphorus.
RP: And if your fructose intake is high, then you don't have to worry too much about the exact ratio of calcium to phosphorus, but the ratio in milk 1.3:1 is very close to a very safe ratio. But you can easily get by with two or three times as much phosphate as calcium, especially if your sugar intake is good. And then if you're getting plenty of salt and calcium, you don't have to worry much about the other two calcium and minerals."

“One of the reasons a lot of people give, if they have overcome the idea that milk forms mucous, or is a risk for diseases and so on; one of their arguments is that it makes them fat. But, all the research on animals, and as far as it goes, human research, shows that milk is probably the best reducing foods there is. The mechanisms for that are now known. Not only the anti-stress effects of casein, and a good balance of saturated fats and so on, but the calcium alone is very important metabolic regulator, that it happens to inhibit the fat-forming enzymes fatty acid synthase, and incidentally that’s a characteristic enzyme that goes wild in cancer. But calcium and milk inhibit that fatty acid synthase, reducing the formation of fats and at the same time it activates the uncoupling proteins in the mitochondria, which are associated with increased longevity. Because they, by increasing the metabolic rate, the uncoupling proteins burn calories faster but they protect against free-radical oxidation. That they pull the fuel through the oxidation process so fast in effect, that none of it goes astray in random oxidation, where if you inhibit your energy producing enzymes you tend to get random, stray oxidation that damage the mitochondria. So the uncoupling proteins burn calories faster, at the same time that your reducing fat synthesis and milk is, as far as I know, they only food does both of those things simultaneously.”

Ray's consumed both 1 percent and skim over the years but mostly skim milk. Also the added vitamins (A and D) are found in pretty much any milk that isn't whole milk (skim, 1 percent, 2 percent) unless your getting it straight from a farmer.

From my experience keeping fat very very low is really the ticket for weight loss. But thats just my experience and it's not really in line with what ray has said for the most part about a decent sat. fat intake. But as always context is king.

 

[Runenight201]

I’d have to agree with Cirion on fat and mood and energy. There definitely is a sweet spot of fat where any less results in poor moods, energy, and satiation, but anymore and I instantly start feeling the nausea from too much fat.

I think the key to weight loss while not feeling terrible is keeping protein high (meat and eggs), fat moderate, fruit/sugar as desired, milk as desired, and limiting the starch intake. Completely eliminating starch just has never been possible in my experience without running into mood and satiation problems, but I do eat far less than I have in the past. Too much starch without accompanied fat (and lean meat as well) is a recipe for indigestion and bloat, which are serotonin’s and estrogen’s favorite environments =P
Oh yea making sure food is prepared properly is huge. Plain oatmeal will destroy me, but oats cooked in milk with salt, maple syrup, berries, and bananas is an immensely powerful food for me.

 

[Cirion]

Thanks for the info. Appreciate all the helpful replies so far, has given me a lot of food for though. Yes, added vitamins are found in most milk, that's what I'm saying, which is why I opt for 1% so I can actually utilize said vitamins and hopefully avoid some of the digestive distress that fat soluble vitamins likely give if you are eating zero fat. I would love to find skim milk that has no added vitamins, but pretty sure you can't get that unless you buy whole milk and skim the milk off yourself.

I agree that keeping dietary fat low is probably best for weight loss but I am not convinced it is best for overall health. We need to be careful not to mix up weight loss with health (not saying you necessarily are though). Health is my goal not weight loss. I'd even be possibly accepting of my current weight if I felt 100%. That said, I think it probably should be a little bit lower than I had been doing. So my compromise is around 20% (which BTW is the content of 1% milk, 20% by fat).

I had many days that my total gram intake of fat in a day was more than the gram intake per day of protein, which I would agree is probably not right. I think % of calories should be about the same for both protein and fat... just my opinion though. So that means on a gram basis, should have about twice grams of protein as fat (and I think that's what Kate Deering says too). Hence pushing towards around 60C/20P/20F. Kate deering says protein should be one half of carbs, but I feel better with more like 2.5-3X carb compared to protein. I forget what RP says about that. I think he says at least 2x?

 

[Cirion]

I’d have to agree with Cirion on fat and mood and energy. There definitely is a sweet spot of fat where any less results in poor moods, energy, and satiation, but anymore and I instantly start feeling the nausea from too much fat.

I think the key to weight loss while not feeling terrible is keeping protein high (meat and eggs), fat moderate, fruit/sugar as desired, milk as desired, and limiting the starch intake. Completely eliminating starch just has never been possible in my experience without running into mood and satiation problems, but I do eat far less than I have in the past. Too much starch without accompanied fat (and lean meat as well) is a recipe for indigestion and bloat, which are serotonin’s and estrogen’s favorite environments =P
Oh yea making sure food is prepared properly is huge. Plain oatmeal will destroy me, but oats cooked in milk with salt, maple syrup, berries, and bananas is an immensely powerful food for me.

I know you like your meat and eggs but they are just too "heavy" for me and torporific for me. Every time I try to bring back meat it ends up going badly for me. I'm actually glad I have switched to milk for my protein, it seems to be much lighter. To each their own, though. No starch for this guy either, possibly I haven't been quite prepared the mright, but I don't really miss them all that much.

 

[ilikecats]

@Runenight201 I think its probably different for everyone to an extent... I don't crave fat at all and I feel great when it's very very low. I keep trying to up fat intake but it's driven by discipline and it doesn't feel right for me (at this time). And this is on top of the weight loss benefits. My sugar intake is very high though, up to a kilo a day. Mood is usually euphoric and no issues with satiation. Saturated fats can be synthesized from sugars. Ray's fat intake the past 5 years or so has been at about only 60 grams per day. Mines lower for now.

@Cirion I misread your statement about the added vitamins. I'd never confuse weight loss with health... health is my primary goal as well. But obesity causes increased serum levels of free fatty acids and increased aromatase enzyme activity. I can think of only a few minor mechanisms through which increasing fat intake would increase my health. Its mostly there for its anti septic effect and anti inflammatory effect and its effect on digestion. And I have no issues on those fronts. I don't think anyone should be trying to rely on fat as a source of fuel. Completely saturated fats still disrupt the randle cycle if they are high enough.

 

[tankasnowgod]

I definitely do feel a tryptophan effect if I don't have enough sugar with milk, I can say that for sure.

I should note that I've only just switched over to milk like a week ago. I in fact was getting most of my protein from cheese before, and I believe that's what was making me fat. Also my overall protein intake may have been a bit on the low side as a result (Goat cheese in particular is like 16g protein 32g fat per 4 oz, so loading up on that for protein is a poor idea if you want to keep fat down to a certain level and thus the randle cycle).

I now tend to think the Randle cycle hits you harder if you're hypothyroid, but that you have a high fat appetite when you're hypothyroid, so its a MASSIVE catch 22 situation. I think the solution (hopefully) is what I'm doing now... bring fats down as low *as I can tolerate* but not too low, and make sure fats I do have are super low or even zero in PUFA while bumping up carbs a lot to help both with glucose stores and also to make sure calories are still high enough.

I have actually noticed my fat appetite drop slightly, which helps to make this a LITTLE bit easier. I was munching on a block of cheese the other evening and realized "I don't want the rest of this" and left it un-eaten.

Cool, interested in your results. Outside of counting calories, the two methods that seem to work on this forum are either low-ish fat with milk (like you just started), or a bit higher fat with no milk (but still the caisen type dairy products), although doing no starch either way.

I actually think a good amount of that weight is water weight when I think about it, because I don't have the typical "Look" that someone who weighs 270 lb does, as a good amount of it is fairly lean mass everywhere except my belly, which looks more "Bloated" than it does "fat", if that makes sense. I actually can still wear size 38 pants which isn't too incredibly bad. It's weird, I look really strange for sure. I'm not kidding myself though, I do know I gained a lot of fat too though.

I'm of a similar opinion, that most of what we call "fat" isn't really fat, but either edema or inflammation. Especially "belly fat," which could be due to an inflamed GI tract, endotoxin and serotonin produced from the GI tract, and/or fatty liver.