Repulsion, Disgust, and Aversion: When should you trust your immediate response to someone, and when should you try to overcome it?

[Atelier]

@ Hugh Johnson

I can tell women never looked at me in public. Not that I was a bad guy, but I was heavily traumatized and messed up. Women not wanting to get themselves mixed up in all that negative energy is reasonable. Lately women make a lot of eye contact in public as I have finally managed to heal enough.

Did women avoid communication with you in the times you were messed up, or they simply didn't make eye contact?
Were there physical differences between the times women didn't make eye contact and now?

I've been around messed up people my whole life, and I've been messed up myself.
I don't know, the guy on the plane felt something different.

Messed up people are definitely not necessarely bad.

I think there might be a lot of different reasons why women don't make eye contact.

 

[Regina]

Yea so this is SO FUNNY because you JUST DESCRIBED A LOW-SEROTONIN GUY/HEALTHY GUY

Yea, I actually meet girls like you all the time and I don't like them, because they're (girls in general) are so inscure that they JUST CANNOT STAND being around a low-stress male because they feel challenged/intimidated in his presence and they hate that because they lose the feeling of being in control

THE GUY IN THE PLANE SENSED HOW INSECURE YOU WERE, so he kept making jokes to see if you would pass the test and chill out, but YOU FAILED THE TEST

WHY CAN'T LOW-SEROTONIN GUYS CATCH A BREAK

#LOWSEROTONINGUYSLIVESMATTER

Did you ever see the movie Dressed To Kill? The cat n mouse game with the guy in the museum and Angie Dickenson?
He was playful.

 

[Atelier]

I think intuition is a mix of things too, and involves sensing energy. I think a woman’s intuition is particularly strong, and for good reason. It’s like our own personal bodyguard, protecting us and our babies, should we listen to it. I’ve had so many experiences where my intuition was spot on. One example that comes to mind was while hiking. I hiked with my brother who was a big guy at the time—6’4” and around 120 kg—so for the most part, I didn’t have to worry about my safety. One day, while out on a hike, my brother and I were introduced to a man about twice our age. He was well loved and respected among the hiking community, was happily married, hosted after hike parties and so on, however, I immediately had a bad feeling about him. Not long after, my brother and I decided to do an overnight backpacking trip with a large group of mostly hikers we knew and when we got to the trailhead parking lot, I saw that the man was there and learned that he would be joining us. While we were getting our packs ready, he made a comment that I had nice legs and I thanked him, and told myself it was just a compliment, no biggie, and continued getting ready. When we started the hike, I kept close to my brother because again, the man gave me bad vibes, however, we came to a water crossing and in the process of getting my boots off and hung around my neck so that they wouldn’t get wet, I got separated from my brother. When I got to the other side of the river, the only one there was the man. He was wiping his feet off with a small towel and then offered it to me and as I thanked him and went to grab it, he started wiping my feet and legs. Feeling really uncomfortable, I quickly got my boots on and took off to find my brother. After meeting up with him, I stayed close the rest of the trip. The following morning, while we were back on trail and heading out, I noticed that two of the women in our group were hanging back and one looked upset. I later found out that she had arranged to share a tent with the man and he had sexually assaulted her during the night.

It's good that you were with your brother!
It is true that women in general have strong intuition. I often hear about husbands relying on their wife's gutfeeling.
It's surprising that this guy didn't have problems before and was respected. I hope the woman pressed charges against him.

 

[Atelier]

We are similar. And have had similar unpleasant events.
Both with an "old friend" that grew up weird. And people trying to hustle us, (sometmes successfully).
It's happened enough times to leave him shaken. He pays attention to my "shine" now.
Gift of Fear is a good book by Gavin de Becker where he helps victims reveal that they already knew but didn't trust themselves.

I've had a terrible pattern that is difficult to shake off. I am super agreeable with people--a real trooper. I'll jump in a ditch and help somebody dig it.
I grew up with a father that stopped to help people on the side of the road all the time. I mean for people NO ONE would stop for but my dear ole dad. He'd be out there changing their tire and learn about them a bit. Invariably, the next week he'd take a ride out to the junkyard and crawl around for a missing part for this family's car. He'd have obtained their address. After Church we'd have to stop by their place (often in the heart of the ghetto) so he could further fix their car. He might bring them a bag of our used clothes and household items.
I forget that he was built llike a silverback gorilla and was completely fearless. He didn't do these things because he was a putz. He was built to serve. And literally no one would mess with him. He always had a meatball of cash rolled up in his front pocket in case he wanted to buy a house (literally), a car, a boat, a pile of lumber at any given time. He was a 'walk through the darkest valley' kind of guy.
I have those same instincts AND fearlessness, but I am no silverback gorilla. I get fleeced.
But I also switch on a dime when a line has been crossed and they are gobsmacked. I think I inherited the aikido philosophy before even training.
You take ukemi (go along like a ragdoll) but ferociously squelch an opening in an attack.

I have a hard time conveying this up front: I will help you but you see these teeth?

"I have a hard time conveying this up front: I will help you but you see these teeth?"
I have the same pattern as you do, and I guess that was the initial reason for Animalcule's post.
I am also very aggreeable to people, and only show my teeth when they push the line, if I manage to.
I have a hard time understanding why some people think that in my case, being agreeable seems to be a licence for them to push, or why I cannot naturally convey "I will help you but you see these teeth".
I observe the people who don't need to show their teeth upfront and still manage to have their bondaries respected.

In my case I think it comes from my mother who was asian.
I guess I have an asian approach of people, and in Europe some people mistake it for permission.
When I react, it means I've really had enough, and the pushy person is shocked.
So I've tried to learn to signal my boundaries earlier, which is really hard.

It's funny, I've wanted to learn aikido in the past, but couldn't since I have scoliosis.
My dad learned it at the dojo of Master Ueshiba when he was still alive.

 

[Atelier]

We are similar. And have had similar unpleasant events.
Both with an "old friend" that grew up weird. And people trying to hustle us, (sometmes successfully).
It's happened enough times to leave him shaken. He pays attention to my "shine" now.
Gift of Fear is a good book by Gavin de Becker where he helps victims reveal that they already knew but didn't trust themselves.

I've had a terrible pattern that is difficult to shake off. I am super agreeable with people--a real trooper. I'll jump in a ditch and help somebody dig it.
I grew up with a father that stopped to help people on the side of the road all the time. I mean for people NO ONE would stop for but my dear ole dad. He'd be out there changing their tire and learn about them a bit. Invariably, the next week he'd take a ride out to the junkyard and crawl around for a missing part for this family's car. He'd have obtained their address. After Church we'd have to stop by their place (often in the heart of the ghetto) so he could further fix their car. He might bring them a bag of our used clothes and household items.
I forget that he was built llike a silverback gorilla and was completely fearless. He didn't do these things because he was a putz. He was built to serve. And literally no one would mess with him. He always had a meatball of cash rolled up in his front pocket in case he wanted to buy a house (literally), a car, a boat, a pile of lumber at any given time. He was a 'walk through the darkest valley' kind of guy.
I have those same instincts AND fearlessness, but I am no silverback gorilla. I get fleeced.
But I also switch on a dime when a line has been crossed and they are gobsmacked. I think I inherited the aikido philosophy before even training.
You take ukemi (go along like a ragdoll) but ferociously squelch an opening in an attack.

I have a hard time conveying this up front: I will help you but you see these teeth?

"Gift of Fear is a good book by Gavin de Becker where he helps victims reveal that they already knew but didn't trust themselves."

So true, often victims didn't trust their gutfeelings.

When I lived in NYC, I briefly joined a group of artists that organized monthly meetings, each time at a member's place, to discuss the host's artwork.
They told me a really sad story of a woman, who didn't listen to her intuition.
The host had just moved in a new apartment, in a brand new building in Tribeca.
So when the lady arrived at the host's location, she called the elevator.
When the elevator arrived, there was a mexican looking man inside who came down from upper floors.
He clearly looked like he was getting off, but changed his mind and stayed inside.
She immediately felt something was off and felt intense fear. Her intuition told her not to get in.
BUT, she didn't want to hurt the man's feelings by giving him the impression that he was scary and that she was a racist.....
So she got in the elevator and pushed on the 12 floor button. He pushed on the 10th floor.
When he arrived at his floor, he dragged her out.
It turned out that this floor wasn't finished and he was a construction worker.
It was a friday night. No matter how much she screemed, nobody could hear her, because several floors were still under construction.
He raped her the whole week-end, keeping her captive, until she could escape, waiting for a moment when he fell asleep.

She didn't listened to her intuition!!! She was afraid of him feeling bad, and she was afraid of coming off as a racist.
This is so sad. A split second bad decision. She must have been so traumatized.

5 years ago I ran into a similar situation in my own building, without the rape...
I called the elevator and when it opened, a man I had never seen before was about to get off, but as he saw me, he walked backwards into the elevator, staring at me.
My heart raced, because there was no apparent good reason for him to do so : he didn't even push on a floor button. He kept staring with sort of a smile.
As I had already entered the elevator, I felt that stupid fear of vexing, hurting the man's feelings that paralized me. At the same time, everything inside me was screeming to get off! I thought of the story of the woman in NYC.
So I mumbled "Hum.... hum.... no...", like I had mistaken or something.
I stormed out, and I heard him chuckle.
I don't know what he was about, and I'm glad I never knew. In a situation of potential danger, better to make a mistake than to be very sorry.

 

[Regina]

"Gift of Fear is a good book by Gavin de Becker where he helps victims reveal that they already knew but didn't trust themselves."

So true, often victims didn't trust their gutfeelings.

When I lived in NYC, I briefly joined a group of artists that organized monthly meetings, each time at a member's place, to discuss the host's artwork.
They told me a really sad story of a woman, who didn't listen to her intuition.
The host had just moved in a new apartment, in a brand new building in Tribeca.
So when the lady arrived at the host's location, she called the elevator.
When the elevator arrived, there was a mexican looking man inside who came down from upper floors.
He clearly looked like he was getting off, but changed his mind and stayed inside.
She immediately felt something was off and felt intense fear. Her intuition told her not to get in.
BUT, she didn't want to hurt the man's feelings by giving him the impression that he was scary and that she was a racist.....
So she got in the elevator and pushed on the 12 floor button. He pushed on the 10th floor.
When he arrived at his floor, he dragged her out.
It turned out that this floor wasn't finished and he was a construction worker.
It was a friday night. No matter how much she screemed, nobody could hear her, because several floors were still under construction.
He raped her the whole week-end, keeping her captive, until she could escape, waiting for a moment when he fell asleep.

She didn't listened to her intuition!!! She was afraid of him feeling bad, and she was afraid of coming off as a racist.
This is so sad. A split second bad decision. She must have been so traumatized.

5 years ago I ran into a similar situation in my own building, without the rape...
I called the elevator and when it opened, a man I had never seen before was about to get off, but as he saw me, he walked backwards into the elevator, staring at me.
My heart raced, because there was no apparent good reason for him to do so : he didn't even push on a floor button. He kept staring with sort of a smile.
As I had already entered the elevator, I felt that stupid fear of vexing, hurting the man's feelings that paralized me. At the same time, everything inside me was screeming to get off! I thought of the story of the woman in NYC.
So I mumbled "Hum.... hum.... no...", like I had mistaken or something.
I stormed out, and I heard him chuckle.
I don't know what he was about, and I'm glad I never knew. In a situation of potential danger, better to make a mistake than to be very sorry.

Oh what a sad story about that poor poor girl.
I lived in NYC for 11 yrs as a working adult. Many many a time doing last second changes of direction or stopping from entering my buzz in bldg.
De Becker says we are constantly doing high-stakes prediction and this is healthy.
In his Gift of Fear he told a similar story of a woman in a Manhattan apt. (though a bit less horrific).

God gave us that intuition. Believe in it.

 

[Jennifer]

It's good that you were with your brother!
It is true that women in general have strong intuition. I often hear about husbands relying on their wife's gutfeeling.
It's surprising that this guy didn't have problems before and was respected. I hope the woman pressed charges against him.

From what I understand, she didn’t press charges, and he continued participating in group hikes and activities. I stopped participating in certain group hikes and activities because I knew he would be there.

 

[Atelier]

Oh what a sad story about that poor poor girl.
I lived in NYC for 11 yrs as a working adult. Many many a time doing last second changes of direction or stopping from entering my buzz in bldg.
De Becker says we are constantly doing high-stakes prediction and this is healthy.
In his Gift of Fear he told a similar story of a woman in a Manhattan apt. (though a bit less horrific).

God gave us that intuition. Believe in it.

Yes, intuition is precious.
I keep my mind open to it, to keep it alive.
A few years ago, I created a file on iNote on my computer, where I take note of all instances in my life that I can remember, where I had examples of intuition (especially with a proof-like result), but also synchronicities, intentions that manifested, foreseeing thoughts, even for unimportant events.
I think it helps keep the canal open somehow and helps me trust my instincts better. It also helps me differenciate fears/trauma related reactions from intuition.

I got this book Gift of Fear a few years ago but didn't get to read it yet. I'll definitely read it as soon as I'm in a better place!

 

[LadyRae]

Oh my gosh ladies! Very validating stories

 

[Atelier]

From what I understand, she didn’t press charges, and he continued participating in group hikes and activities. I stopped participating in certain group hikes and activities because I knew he would be there.

That's too bad, although I understand that many abused people feel tremendous shame. Maybe that was the reason for her not to press charges. Maybe she didn't want to deal more with what happened and wanted to move on and try to forget?
I just hope he didn't get to do it again... although unlikely since he clearly seems to be a serial offender.

 

[Atelier]

Oh my gosh ladies! Very validating stories

Yes, it's always interesting to hear other people's experiences!

 

[LadyRae]

Yes, it's always interesting to hear other people's experiences!

I love your fox profile pic, bytheway

 

[Atelier]

I love your fox profile pic, bytheway

Thank you!

 

[Regina]

Yes, intuition is precious.
I keep my mind open to it, to keep it alive.
A few years ago, I created a file on iNote on my computer, where I take note of all instances in my life that I can remember, where I had examples of intuition (especially with a proof-like result), but also synchronicities, intentions that manifested, foreseeing thoughts, even for unimportant events.
I think it helps keep the canal open somehow and helps me trust my instincts better. It also helps me differenciate fears/trauma related reactions from intuition.

I got this book Gift of Fear a few years ago but didn't get to read it yet. I'll definitely read it as soon as I'm in a better place!

Being outside a lot also helps with intuition. Dean Henderson says we all (humans) used to have 7 senses. And that we can get them back.

 

[Atelier]

Being outside a lot also helps with intuition. Dean Henderson says we all (humans) used to have 7 senses. And that we can get them back.

Oh I don't know him! Which book do you recommend?

 

[Regina]

Oh I don't know him! Which book do you recommend?

Right when covid was announced, I thought, 'well, this is BS. They want to chip us.'
I started to dig a little and that book Illuminati Agenda21 was the very first thing I read. That was enough to fill in enough blanks to see my intuition ;o) was correct.
I haven't read any of his other books. He's gone dark and lives in South Dakota with his wife. These links don't click through, but they show the depth of his research and knowledge of history.

Dean Henderson

You can find some interviews with him. Here's one. Start at 52 minutes to get the gist. (if you like)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN1IgfgCv5E

 

[Atelier]

Right when covid was announced, I thought, 'well, this is BS. They want to chip us.'
I started to dig a little and that book Illuminati Agenda21 was the very first thing I read. That was enough to fill in enough blanks to see my intuition ;o) was correct.
I haven't read any of his other books. He's gone dark and lives in South Dakota with his wife. These links don't click through, but they show the depth of his research and knowledge of history.

Dean Henderson

You can find some interviews with him. Here's one. Start at 52 minutes to get the gist. (if you like)

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN1IgfgCv

I'll check it out, thank you!

 

[Jennifer]

That's too bad, although I understand that many abused people feel tremendous shame. Maybe that was the reason for her not to press charges. Maybe she didn't want to deal more with what happened and wanted to move on and try to forget?
I just hope he didn't get to do it again... although unlikely since he clearly seems to be a serial offender.

I’m not sure of the reason, but what I do know is she blamed herself for sharing a tent with him. Sadly, it’s all too common for the victimized to blame themselves.

 

[Atelier]

I’m not sure of the reason, but what I do know is she blamed herself for sharing a tent with him. Sadly, it’s all too common for the victimized to blame themselves.

Yes, so sad. I think it starts in childhood, it's a natural reaction. I think I heard that from Sam Vaknin if I remember correctly.

 

[Brandin]

One of my lifelong struggles has been that I have trouble trusting my instinctual negative response to certain people/situations, and instead sort of gaslight myself into thinking that my immediate feelings are wrong, and that I should act according to some other principle (kindness, politeness, compassion, etc.). I've grown up with the understanding that I don't respond appropriately to people, and that I need to modify my behavior/responses so as to make social interactions more positive for those around me. I think that this has undermined my ability to trust my instincts when I really need to, and left me unable to discern when polite, accommodating behavior is the appropriate tact (refusing to give in to the impulse to not interact) versus assertive behavior (even when this might come off as rude).

On the one hand, I think that aiming towards a more thoughtful way of interacting with people can be a good thing - if, upon meeting someone, I feel a sense of disgust, or like I want to get away from them, I don't want to be rude and petulant and refuse to interact with them (and sometimes this can't be avoided, at say a job). I also legitimately could be wrong about them - maybe my instincts *are* wrong, maybe there's more too this person, maybe I can learn something by being understanding, maybe I'm just overly anxious/negative/too judgemental in general, etc.

On the other hand, by associating/interacting with people/situations that I am averse to, I sometimes feel as though I'm being entirely too passive. Like I'm letting myself down, or as though I don't have any standards. It sometimes signals to other people that I can be walked all over, or that they shouldn't have respect for me. Even if that isn't the case, I get this nagging sense of inauthenticity. I don't like myself. I become resentful of people because I feel forced to stifle too much of myself, I subsume myself to others. People who I would otherwise respect seem to pick up on this inauthenticity. My attempts at even general politeness in these situations don't always seem natural - at worst they are transparent, and so despite my best intentions, I'm now in a worse position: being seen as inauthentic and untrustworthy.

A small example: I recently had to ride in a coworker's car for a couple of hours. I had never met her before. When I opened her car door, I discovered that the seats were covered in dirt, there was trash and clutter everywhere, and it smelled. I immediately did not want to get in that car, and offered for us to use my vehicle. She refused, and insisted we take her car. I didn't want to be rude, and I didn't want to make a big deal about it and make her dislike me, so ... I caved pretty quickly and just got into her vehicle. Immediately I felt like a chump, and I lost respect for myself. We're both adults, if I feel unsafe about a situation, I should just say so and remove myself from it. But I didn't. I cared more about pacifying a stranger than listening to my instincts that said: get away from her. By this point, my overall impression of her was that she was a little batty, chaotic, anxious, and not very wise. And as soon as I felt that, my mind started coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why I shouldn't think these things, why I should exercise compassion, how would I feel if someone judged me that way, etc. Despite my judgements of her, I tried my best to be polite and easy-going. Yet by the end of the trip, even though we both got along well enough, she had certainly picked up on some of my underlying uneasiness and judgement. Would I have been better off being forthright and holding my ground? I would have initially respected myself a little more, but then been consumed by guilt for not being 'nice.' Would she, ultimately, have felt better too, because at least she wouldn't have felt lied to (by my pretenses) in a way? Even if she hadn't, should I care? Being around people I do not respect, or who even repulse me, also has the effect of depressing my mood and lowering my motivation to almost zero, even more so when I feel that I cannot escape their presence. And, at the risk of sounding like a narcissist, I feel lowered to their level. It really bothers me, and I lose what little self respect I have. Even though I'm not and never will be someone of high status, I feel like I can understand the impulse the upper classes have to not associate with people they feel are beneath them on some level - it's draining and almost feels like being tainted to be around people who's way of being is seen as so low, disturbing, chaotic, or gross. (Note: I don't think that I'm of a higher class to this woman, but I don't want to live the way she lives, in filth and clutter. In fact that's a sore spot for me, as my mother is a bit of a hoarder and it's extremely draining to be in that environment.).

If I've learned anything the past few years, it's that 'niceness' does not pay off in the long run. In fact, it's corrosive. But being assertive (especially as a female) comes with its own set of consequences - consequences that I often wonder if I'm prepared to deal with. I fear I lack the social grace to stand my ground without coming off as harsh. My internal uncertainty makes me feel as though I have no right to my judgements/instinctive reactions, because I could be judged harshly by others as well. I struggle with the knowledge that some people, despite my best efforts, are uneasy around me - and lately I wonder if this is (in part) because I am transparently inauthentic, with a very thin veneer of niceness plastered over a deep well of uneasiness, confusion, anxiety and resentment.

I'm frankly sick of subsuming my instinctual, negative responses to people to this desire to be (or maybe just appear) understanding and likable. I'm tired of my own mind drowning me in guilt when I acknowledge the disgust or repulsion I feel towards some people. Yet if I were to act on my negative judgements of people, would I put myself in a more precarious position, as a social pariah? Or would I ultimately be better off, my psyche less fragmented, if I acknowledged these unchangeable instincts and honored them -- clumsily, maybe even rudely at times? If I had standards/boundaries, and refused to waver from them, no matter the social or financial consequences? More and more I think that people who don't set standards/boundaries are not rewarded for their "compassion" -- they're just dragged to the bottom of the pile, and develop a deep sense of resentment.

This is a long, rambling post. But I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

It obviously has to do with why. If you tend to feel those feelings, analyse deeply why. If its for the wrong reasons you might be high serotonin. If there are good reasons (such as the person actually showing sign of psychopathy) then its more than okay to trust your instinct. The thing is if you are more high estrogen and serotonin you wont really be able to actually see or understand what reason would actually be good or bad nor would you be aboe to understand why you feel this way easily. I would say try to develop understanding for it and also spend alot of time trying to lower serotonin and increasing dopamine. See if you start understanding why. Start also seeing if the reason to why you get mad changes.

If you want to we could talk, Im pretty sure id figure out why you react a certain way fast with just a couple of my social interaction tests…