Repulsion, Disgust, and Aversion: When should you trust your immediate response to someone, and when should you try to overcome it?

[animalcule]

One of my lifelong struggles has been that I have trouble trusting my instinctual negative response to certain people/situations, and instead sort of gaslight myself into thinking that my immediate feelings are wrong, and that I should act according to some other principle (kindness, politeness, compassion, etc.). I've grown up with the understanding that I don't respond appropriately to people, and that I need to modify my behavior/responses so as to make social interactions more positive for those around me. I think that this has undermined my ability to trust my instincts when I really need to, and left me unable to discern when polite, accommodating behavior is the appropriate tact (refusing to give in to the impulse to not interact) versus assertive behavior (even when this might come off as rude).

On the one hand, I think that aiming towards a more thoughtful way of interacting with people can be a good thing - if, upon meeting someone, I feel a sense of disgust, or like I want to get away from them, I don't want to be rude and petulant and refuse to interact with them (and sometimes this can't be avoided, at say a job). I also legitimately could be wrong about them - maybe my instincts *are* wrong, maybe there's more too this person, maybe I can learn something by being understanding, maybe I'm just overly anxious/negative/too judgemental in general, etc.

On the other hand, by associating/interacting with people/situations that I am averse to, I sometimes feel as though I'm being entirely too passive. Like I'm letting myself down, or as though I don't have any standards. It sometimes signals to other people that I can be walked all over, or that they shouldn't have respect for me. Even if that isn't the case, I get this nagging sense of inauthenticity. I don't like myself. I become resentful of people because I feel forced to stifle too much of myself, I subsume myself to others. People who I would otherwise respect seem to pick up on this inauthenticity. My attempts at even general politeness in these situations don't always seem natural - at worst they are transparent, and so despite my best intentions, I'm now in a worse position: being seen as inauthentic and untrustworthy.

A small example: I recently had to ride in a coworker's car for a couple of hours. I had never met her before. When I opened her car door, I discovered that the seats were covered in dirt, there was trash and clutter everywhere, and it smelled. I immediately did not want to get in that car, and offered for us to use my vehicle. She refused, and insisted we take her car. I didn't want to be rude, and I didn't want to make a big deal about it and make her dislike me, so ... I caved pretty quickly and just got into her vehicle. Immediately I felt like a chump, and I lost respect for myself. We're both adults, if I feel unsafe about a situation, I should just say so and remove myself from it. But I didn't. I cared more about pacifying a stranger than listening to my instincts that said: get away from her. By this point, my overall impression of her was that she was a little batty, chaotic, anxious, and not very wise. And as soon as I felt that, my mind started coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why I shouldn't think these things, why I should exercise compassion, how would I feel if someone judged me that way, etc. Despite my judgements of her, I tried my best to be polite and easy-going. Yet by the end of the trip, even though we both got along well enough, she had certainly picked up on some of my underlying uneasiness and judgement. Would I have been better off being forthright and holding my ground? I would have initially respected myself a little more, but then been consumed by guilt for not being 'nice.' Would she, ultimately, have felt better too, because at least she wouldn't have felt lied to (by my pretenses) in a way? Even if she hadn't, should I care? Being around people I do not respect, or who even repulse me, also has the effect of depressing my mood and lowering my motivation to almost zero, even more so when I feel that I cannot escape their presence. And, at the risk of sounding like a narcissist, I feel lowered to their level. It really bothers me, and I lose what little self respect I have. Even though I'm not and never will be someone of high status, I feel like I can understand the impulse the upper classes have to not associate with people they feel are beneath them on some level - it's draining and almost feels like being tainted to be around people who's way of being is seen as so low, disturbing, chaotic, or gross. (Note: I don't think that I'm of a higher class to this woman, but I don't want to live the way she lives, in filth and clutter. In fact that's a sore spot for me, as my mother is a bit of a hoarder and it's extremely draining to be in that environment.).

If I've learned anything the past few years, it's that 'niceness' does not pay off in the long run. In fact, it's corrosive. But being assertive (especially as a female) comes with its own set of consequences - consequences that I often wonder if I'm prepared to deal with. I fear I lack the social grace to stand my ground without coming off as harsh. My internal uncertainty makes me feel as though I have no right to my judgements/instinctive reactions, because I could be judged harshly by others as well. I struggle with the knowledge that some people, despite my best efforts, are uneasy around me - and lately I wonder if this is (in part) because I am transparently inauthentic, with a very thin veneer of niceness plastered over a deep well of uneasiness, confusion, anxiety and resentment.

I'm frankly sick of subsuming my instinctual, negative responses to people to this desire to be (or maybe just appear) understanding and likable. I'm tired of my own mind drowning me in guilt when I acknowledge the disgust or repulsion I feel towards some people. Yet if I were to act on my negative judgements of people, would I put myself in a more precarious position, as a social pariah? Or would I ultimately be better off, my psyche less fragmented, if I acknowledged these unchangeable instincts and honored them -- clumsily, maybe even rudely at times? If I had standards/boundaries, and refused to waver from them, no matter the social or financial consequences? More and more I think that people who don't set standards/boundaries are not rewarded for their "compassion" -- they're just dragged to the bottom of the pile, and develop a deep sense of resentment.

This is a long, rambling post. But I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

 

[I'm.No.One]

I think it could be beneficial for you to examine the why behind your reactions beyond comparing the person against yourself/preferences.

Like the lady with the car. You didn't respond with dislike to her, you responded to the situation i.e. her dirty car.

From the sounds of it for the entire trip your judgment of her as a person was skewed by your judgment of her messy car.

Then even if framed as trying to talk yourself out of thinking a certain way about her you still basically spent the entire trip disliking her.

Of course she picked up on that.

That was just one example you gave of instantly disliking a person, but in any case I'd probably spend more time examining why you don't like them as it pertains to your own insecurities.

Like, for example, the woman with the messy car & you saying your mother is somewhat of a hoarder. See the underlying emotions being projected there?

I'm not saying you or anyone should be happy to ride in a dirty car, I'm more so saying most people probably wouldn't continually pay mind to it & project it onto the woman as if she was physically the dirty car as a human for a two hour car ride.

That sounds exhausting for you.

We should absolutely trust our instincts, however we should also attempt to see how our own projections of unresolved issues may be clouding our instincts.

Lastly, a lot of this screams ASD. Even your writing style. No judgement here my husband is on the spectrum.

When we are mindful to keep his serotonin in check a lot of stuff like this falls away, or at the very least has less control over him. It may be worth considering.

 

[Regina]

One of my lifelong struggles has been that I have trouble trusting my instinctual negative response to certain people/situations, and instead sort of gaslight myself into thinking that my immediate feelings are wrong, and that I should act according to some other principle (kindness, politeness, compassion, etc.). I've grown up with the understanding that I don't respond appropriately to people, and that I need to modify my behavior/responses so as to make social interactions more positive for those around me. I think that this has undermined my ability to trust my instincts when I really need to, and left me unable to discern when polite, accommodating behavior is the appropriate tact (refusing to give in to the impulse to not interact) versus assertive behavior (even when this might come off as rude).

On the one hand, I think that aiming towards a more thoughtful way of interacting with people can be a good thing - if, upon meeting someone, I feel a sense of disgust, or like I want to get away from them, I don't want to be rude and petulant and refuse to interact with them (and sometimes this can't be avoided, at say a job). I also legitimately could be wrong about them - maybe my instincts *are* wrong, maybe there's more too this person, maybe I can learn something by being understanding, maybe I'm just overly anxious/negative/too judgemental in general, etc.

On the other hand, by associating/interacting with people/situations that I am averse to, I sometimes feel as though I'm being entirely too passive. Like I'm letting myself down, or as though I don't have any standards. It sometimes signals to other people that I can be walked all over, or that they shouldn't have respect for me. Even if that isn't the case, I get this nagging sense of inauthenticity. I don't like myself. I become resentful of people because I feel forced to stifle too much of myself, I subsume myself to others. People who I would otherwise respect seem to pick up on this inauthenticity. My attempts at even general politeness in these situations don't always seem natural - at worst they are transparent, and so despite my best intentions, I'm now in a worse position: being seen as inauthentic and untrustworthy.

A small example: I recently had to ride in a coworker's car for a couple of hours. I had never met her before. When I opened her car door, I discovered that the seats were covered in dirt, there was trash and clutter everywhere, and it smelled. I immediately did not want to get in that car, and offered for us to use my vehicle. She refused, and insisted we take her car. I didn't want to be rude, and I didn't want to make a big deal about it and make her dislike me, so ... I caved pretty quickly and just got into her vehicle. Immediately I felt like a chump, and I lost respect for myself. We're both adults, if I feel unsafe about a situation, I should just say so and remove myself from it. But I didn't. I cared more about pacifying a stranger than listening to my instincts that said: get away from her. By this point, my overall impression of her was that she was a little batty, chaotic, anxious, and not very wise. And as soon as I felt that, my mind started coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why I shouldn't think these things, why I should exercise compassion, how would I feel if someone judged me that way, etc. Despite my judgements of her, I tried my best to be polite and easy-going. Yet by the end of the trip, even though we both got along well enough, she had certainly picked up on some of my underlying uneasiness and judgement. Would I have been better off being forthright and holding my ground? I would have initially respected myself a little more, but then been consumed by guilt for not being 'nice.' Would she, ultimately, have felt better too, because at least she wouldn't have felt lied to (by my pretenses) in a way? Even if she hadn't, should I care? Being around people I do not respect, or who even repulse me, also has the effect of depressing my mood and lowering my motivation to almost zero, even more so when I feel that I cannot escape their presence. And, at the risk of sounding like a narcissist, I feel lowered to their level. It really bothers me, and I lose what little self respect I have. Even though I'm not and never will be someone of high status, I feel like I can understand the impulse the upper classes have to not associate with people they feel are beneath them on some level - it's draining and almost feels like being tainted to be around people who's way of being is seen as so low, disturbing, chaotic, or gross. (Note: I don't think that I'm of a higher class to this woman, but I don't want to live the way she lives, in filth and clutter. In fact that's a sore spot for me, as my mother is a bit of a hoarder and it's extremely draining to be in that environment.).

If I've learned anything the past few years, it's that 'niceness' does not pay off in the long run. In fact, it's corrosive. But being assertive (especially as a female) comes with its own set of consequences - consequences that I often wonder if I'm prepared to deal with. I fear I lack the social grace to stand my ground without coming off as harsh. My internal uncertainty makes me feel as though I have no right to my judgements/instinctive reactions, because I could be judged harshly by others as well. I struggle with the knowledge that some people, despite my best efforts, are uneasy around me - and lately I wonder if this is (in part) because I am transparently inauthentic, with a very thin veneer of niceness plastered over a deep well of uneasiness, confusion, anxiety and resentment.

I'm frankly sick of subsuming my instinctual, negative responses to people to this desire to be (or maybe just appear) understanding and likable. I'm tired of my own mind drowning me in guilt when I acknowledge the disgust or repulsion I feel towards some people. Yet if I were to act on my negative judgements of people, would I put myself in a more precarious position, as a social pariah? Or would I ultimately be better off, my psyche less fragmented, if I acknowledged these unchangeable instincts and honored them -- clumsily, maybe even rudely at times? If I had standards/boundaries, and refused to waver from them, no matter the social or financial consequences? More and more I think that people who don't set standards/boundaries are not rewarded for their "compassion" -- they're just dragged to the bottom of the pile, and develop a deep sense of resentment.

This is a long, rambling post. But I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Not only are they not rewarded for their compassion, they are often scapegoated.

I think you should trust your instincts, tell the truth to yourself and come what may.

 

[animalcule]

Thank you for your response. I have considered looking into an ASD diagnosis, but I think cPTSD from childhood abuse is more likely than autism. There's a lot of overlapping symptoms, and autism doesn't quite fit everything.

With regards to projecting negativity onto the woman based on her car's appearance and my mother's hoarding, while I hear what you're saying, and while there probably was some of that going on, I don't quite think that was all of it. The way people keep their environments DOES reflect their state of mind. It was chaotic, and what's more, she didn't think there was anything wrong with it. This state of filth was perfectly acceptable in her eyes, and so she thought it should be perfectly acceptable to me too. She knew we were going to be driving that day, and she didn't clean it up at all. I also neglected to mention that there was a car part gerry-rigged to the bottom of the car -- she told me to ignore any clanking I heard, that it was just this part hitting the road sometimes. Again: she saw nothing wrong with *insisting* that we take her car, despite my objections (and my much cleaner, safer car). This does not reflect someone with a healthy state of mind. She was oblivious to the disorder she surrounded herself with (or maybe ashamed to acknowledge it as a problem), and our conversation only confirmed that she was definitely in a difficult place mentally and physically. My experience with my mother helps me to understand this mindset a bit- it doesn't mean that I completely projected things onto this woman. I didn't focus on my dislike towards her during our trip - my goal was to get along, we made good conversation, and I think we parted ways on a good note, despite my underlying discomfort.

But besides my judgement of her, there's just the fact that... a person can have standards, especially about the safety and cleanliness of the vehicle they're going to be in for hours. I was reminded of another coworker who told me she flat out refused to ride in her work partner's vehicle because she didn't think it was safe. She was a confident woman with standards who simply stuck with them, regardless of whether or not she offended anyone. I respected her for that. And I thought of her as I meekly got into this broken down, dirty car. I should have been able to stand up for myself and put my safety and cleanliness concerns over fears of being rude. I think that's the conclusion I've come to after typing out my whole post.

I think that you mean well, but the comments you made are similar to the ones that run through my head, back and forth, and their purpose, ultimately, is not to make me a better, more reflective person, but to simply undermine any trust I might have in my instincts and perceptions (not saying this was your goal, but that this is the ultimate effect of me thinking similar thoughts). It's a trap that I think many insecure women fall into: maybe my perceptions are wrong, maybe this, maybe that, etc, etc... The end is to sever the connection with instinct so as to make social interactions smoother for others, at the expense of one's confidence and sanity. My perceptions very well MAY be wrong, may be projections, etc., but I can't live with the incessant uncertainty. It makes one cowardly and detached from oneself.

 

[animalcule]

Not only are they not rewarded for their compassion, they are often scapegoated.

I think you should trust your instincts, tell the truth to yourself and come what may.

Thanks. Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion. Typing it all out helped.

People aren't just minds independent of their behavior, their appearances, etc. Everyone is constantly giving off signals about who they are. It's up to others to interpret them and act accordingly. Maybe we don't always interpret these signals correctly. But better to misinterpret them sometimes and maintain trust in yourself than to sever the connection you have to your instincts in the name of being polite.

 

[LuMonty]

It's a trap that I think many insecure women fall into: maybe my perceptions are wrong, maybe this, maybe that, etc, etc... The end is to sever the connection with instinct so as to make social interactions smoother for others, at the expense of one's confidence and sanity. My perceptions very well MAY be wrong, may be projections, etc., but I can't live with the incessant uncertainty. It makes one cowardly and detached from oneself.

I agree with you completely and in my experience men have the same doubts. They may handle things differently but the uncertainty is still there. I think your observations are good and your reaction is healthy. I'm very familiar with the feeling of second-guessing oneself and handling social situations. Being nicer in that context never works because it's cowardly, like you said, and over a long enough time causes resentment.

 

[Regina]

Thanks. Yes, I'm coming to that conclusion. Typing it all out helped.

People aren't just minds independent of their behavior, their appearances, etc. Everyone is constantly giving off signals about who they are. It's up to others to interpret them and act accordingly. Maybe we don't always interpret these signals correctly. But better to misinterpret them sometimes and maintain trust in yourself than to sever the connection you have to your instincts in the name of being polite.

I suffer from it too. And it has cost me plenty.

But you are correct to not sever the connection you have to your instincts.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

One of my lifelong struggles has been that I have trouble trusting my instinctual negative response to certain people/situations, and instead sort of gaslight myself into thinking that my immediate feelings are wrong, and that I should act according to some other principle (kindness, politeness, compassion, etc.). I've grown up with the understanding that I don't respond appropriately to people, and that I need to modify my behavior/responses so as to make social interactions more positive for those around me. I think that this has undermined my ability to trust my instincts when I really need to, and left me unable to discern when polite, accommodating behavior is the appropriate tact (refusing to give in to the impulse to not interact) versus assertive behavior (even when this might come off as rude).

On the one hand, I think that aiming towards a more thoughtful way of interacting with people can be a good thing - if, upon meeting someone, I feel a sense of disgust, or like I want to get away from them, I don't want to be rude and petulant and refuse to interact with them (and sometimes this can't be avoided, at say a job). I also legitimately could be wrong about them - maybe my instincts *are* wrong, maybe there's more too this person, maybe I can learn something by being understanding, maybe I'm just overly anxious/negative/too judgemental in general, etc.

On the other hand, by associating/interacting with people/situations that I am averse to, I sometimes feel as though I'm being entirely too passive. Like I'm letting myself down, or as though I don't have any standards. It sometimes signals to other people that I can be walked all over, or that they shouldn't have respect for me. Even if that isn't the case, I get this nagging sense of inauthenticity. I don't like myself. I become resentful of people because I feel forced to stifle too much of myself, I subsume myself to others. People who I would otherwise respect seem to pick up on this inauthenticity. My attempts at even general politeness in these situations don't always seem natural - at worst they are transparent, and so despite my best intentions, I'm now in a worse position: being seen as inauthentic and untrustworthy.

A small example: I recently had to ride in a coworker's car for a couple of hours. I had never met her before. When I opened her car door, I discovered that the seats were covered in dirt, there was trash and clutter everywhere, and it smelled. I immediately did not want to get in that car, and offered for us to use my vehicle. She refused, and insisted we take her car. I didn't want to be rude, and I didn't want to make a big deal about it and make her dislike me, so ... I caved pretty quickly and just got into her vehicle. Immediately I felt like a chump, and I lost respect for myself. We're both adults, if I feel unsafe about a situation, I should just say so and remove myself from it. But I didn't. I cared more about pacifying a stranger than listening to my instincts that said: get away from her. By this point, my overall impression of her was that she was a little batty, chaotic, anxious, and not very wise. And as soon as I felt that, my mind started coming up with all sorts of reasons as to why I shouldn't think these things, why I should exercise compassion, how would I feel if someone judged me that way, etc. Despite my judgements of her, I tried my best to be polite and easy-going. Yet by the end of the trip, even though we both got along well enough, she had certainly picked up on some of my underlying uneasiness and judgement. Would I have been better off being forthright and holding my ground? I would have initially respected myself a little more, but then been consumed by guilt for not being 'nice.' Would she, ultimately, have felt better too, because at least she wouldn't have felt lied to (by my pretenses) in a way? Even if she hadn't, should I care? Being around people I do not respect, or who even repulse me, also has the effect of depressing my mood and lowering my motivation to almost zero, even more so when I feel that I cannot escape their presence. And, at the risk of sounding like a narcissist, I feel lowered to their level. It really bothers me, and I lose what little self respect I have. Even though I'm not and never will be someone of high status, I feel like I can understand the impulse the upper classes have to not associate with people they feel are beneath them on some level - it's draining and almost feels like being tainted to be around people who's way of being is seen as so low, disturbing, chaotic, or gross. (Note: I don't think that I'm of a higher class to this woman, but I don't want to live the way she lives, in filth and clutter. In fact that's a sore spot for me, as my mother is a bit of a hoarder and it's extremely draining to be in that environment.).

If I've learned anything the past few years, it's that 'niceness' does not pay off in the long run. In fact, it's corrosive. But being assertive (especially as a female) comes with its own set of consequences - consequences that I often wonder if I'm prepared to deal with. I fear I lack the social grace to stand my ground without coming off as harsh. My internal uncertainty makes me feel as though I have no right to my judgements/instinctive reactions, because I could be judged harshly by others as well. I struggle with the knowledge that some people, despite my best efforts, are uneasy around me - and lately I wonder if this is (in part) because I am transparently inauthentic, with a very thin veneer of niceness plastered over a deep well of uneasiness, confusion, anxiety and resentment.

I'm frankly sick of subsuming my instinctual, negative responses to people to this desire to be (or maybe just appear) understanding and likable. I'm tired of my own mind drowning me in guilt when I acknowledge the disgust or repulsion I feel towards some people. Yet if I were to act on my negative judgements of people, would I put myself in a more precarious position, as a social pariah? Or would I ultimately be better off, my psyche less fragmented, if I acknowledged these unchangeable instincts and honored them -- clumsily, maybe even rudely at times? If I had standards/boundaries, and refused to waver from them, no matter the social or financial consequences? More and more I think that people who don't set standards/boundaries are not rewarded for their "compassion" -- they're just dragged to the bottom of the pile, and develop a deep sense of resentment.

This is a long, rambling post. But I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts on this.

Energy is real, and you do get dirtied by people's nasty energies. Typically you want to examine it a moment, to see if it is you or them, and then excuse yourself. I see no reason to closely associate with most people.

You do seem to have boundary issues. Say no, and let them deal. And when you have to deal with them take your focus away from them and focus on your body. There are shielding practices you might learn.

 

[I'm.No.One]

I didn't realize you were a woman, please know almost everything you read online about ASD is geared towards men.

Women are harder to diagnose.

Anyhow, you're really stuck on this one incident with the woman & her car.

Again, I didn't say not to trust your instincts.

Your own words made it sound like you spent the entire trip obsessively thinking about the situation.

Yes you could have been more assertive about taking your car, nothing wrong about that.

I think my response was primarily due to it sounds like you might do this to anyone you ever potentially encounter & it's eating you alive.

We for sure can decide (at times) who we prefer to spend our time with. I'll even acknowledge that judgement is part of human nature.

But there's a point where it enters OCD realms of control, & if a person doesn't exist in the way you prefer you're disgusted by them (probably isn't just happening with physically dirty/messy people).

What you're asking for here is someone to tell you that yes you should always instantly trust your instincts.

What I said was make sure you're doing that from a healthy place or you risk alienation & loneliness because eventually nobody will meet your standards.

Take care & I hope you're truly able to find balance in all of this.

 

[Regina]

Energy is real, and you do get dirtied by people's nasty energies. Typically you want to examine it a moment, to see if it is you or them, and then excuse yourself. I see no reason to closely associate with most people.

You do seem to have boundary issues. Say no, and let them deal. And when you have to deal with them take your focus away from them and focus on your body. There are shielding practices you might learn.

Out of the blue, Mark Kulacs tweeted this. It hit me like a lightning bolt.

Do not conflate empathy with compassion.

 

[animalcule]

I didn't realize you were a woman, please know almost everything you read online about ASD is geared towards men.

Women are harder to diagnose.

Anyhow, you're really stuck on this one incident with the woman & her car.

Again, I didn't say not to trust your instincts.

Your own words made it sound like you spent the entire trip obsessively thinking about the situation.

Yes you could have been more assertive about taking your car, nothing wrong about that.

I think my response was primarily due to it sounds like you might do this to anyone you ever potentially encounter & it's eating you alive.

We for sure can decide (at times) who we prefer to spend our time with. I'll even acknowledge that judgement is part of human nature.

But there's a point where it enters OCD realms of control, & if a person doesn't exist in the way you prefer you're disgusted by them (probably isn't just happening with physically dirty/messy people).

What you're asking for here is someone to tell you that yes you should always instantly trust your instincts.

What I said was make sure you're doing that from a healthy place or you risk alienation & loneliness because eventually nobody will meet your standards.

Take care & I hope you're truly able to find balance in all of this.

I think you're right that when I started this post I was looking for confirmation about always trusting my instincts. But by the time I finished writing, I didn't really need this confirmation, I had come to realize that my passivity was cowardly and that my instinctual reactions, right or wrong, need to be acknowledged and acted on - I am a worse person for all of my endless back and forth in my mind, not a better one. But I entered the post anyway, just to read others' thoughts if they had them. And even though I think that some of what you read into my post isn't quite accurate, I really do appreciate your response because it has helped me to clarify some things about how I should behave and the consequences of it.

I did not spend the trip obsessing about the situation - as with most things, I resigned myself to what was happening and tried to get along and finish the task. It came back to haunt me later, as I reflected on how disappointed I was in myself for being so meek, and for not setting boundaries, and for stuffing down my instinctive reactions. I'm not "stuck on" the situation, I'm simply processing it, and relating it to larger patterns in my life. I think you're making some assumptions that "if a person doesn't exist in the way you prefer you're disgusted by them (probably isn't just happening with physically dirty/messy people," and that (probably because you think I have ASD) I may have some OCD compulsions in these social situations. I might have some OCD tendencies, haha! But again: I cannot stress enough how much of a pushover I am in social situations. I cannot stress enough how much and for how long I have stuffed down any little voice inside of me screaming to get away from people/situations because I needed to appear easy going and likable. The treatment I have put up with because I doubted my own judgement. And it has never benefited me, in the short or long term. In fact, it has caused people who I admire to lose respect for me - the opposite of my intentions. I also find it causes me to lose respect for myself.

"What I said was make sure you're doing that from a healthy place or you risk alienation & loneliness because eventually nobody will meet your standards."

If I were finding fault with absolutely everyone around me, then maybe this would apply. But I'm not. And when I read statements like this, about lowering standards because if you don't there's a risk no one will meet them? I think this is a dangerous thing to tell certain people, especially anxious or uncertain ones, whose problem is not that their standards are too high, but rather, in practice, they are too LOW. I don't think you meant to be unkind or anything like that, but it really stands out to me, and I have a strong negative emotional reaction to it. I have said this to myself many times: Be more gracious, be more kind, your judgements are too harsh, maybe your expectations are unrealistic, etc, etc. AND THIS HAS HARMED ME. It's not wise. It's passivity and weakness masquerading as understanding. I'm reminded of Nietzsche's concept of "slave morality"... I honestly do feel like a slave, sometimes, when I put this draining advice into practice... like I have no agency, like I have to bend to the whims of everyone around me, placate them.

The people I admire and respect do NOT lower their standards or retract their boundaries depending on who they're interacting with. After thinking about my original post, that is one of my conclusions. Being a pushover may make things smoother for other people, but in exchange for short term ease, you lose respect for yourself. And you become someone no one should respect either. Having good standards and judgements is protective and also builds confidence, instead of eroding it.

While I obviously disagree with you on many things, I do appreciate your responses, and I think we just may both have some misconceptions/misreadings of each other.

 

[animalcule]

Energy is real, and you do get dirtied by people's nasty energies. Typically you want to examine it a moment, to see if it is you or them, and then excuse yourself. I see no reason to closely associate with most people.

You do seem to have boundary issues. Say no, and let them deal. And when you have to deal with them take your focus away from them and focus on your body. There are shielding practices you might learn.

Agreed. As much as we may want to deny it, some people's attitudes/presence has an almost physical affect on us.

 

[animalcule]

I agree with you completely and in my experience men have the same doubts. They may handle things differently but the uncertainty is still there. I think your observations are good and your reaction is healthy. I'm very familiar with the feeling of second-guessing oneself and handling social situations. Being nicer in that context never works because it's cowardly, like you said, and over a long enough time causes resentment.

Thanks. I hadn't considered the male perspective on this because it has always seemed to me that there was more pressure on women to be the sort of social "pacifiers" and be "nice." But I guess the social pressures on men to behave a certain way plays out too. Being indiscriminately "nice" can be bad for the soul...

 

[LuMonty]

Thanks. I hadn't considered the male perspective on this because it has always seemed to me that there was more pressure on women to be the sort of social "pacifiers" and be "nice." But I guess the social pressures on men to behave a certain way plays out too. Being indiscriminately "nice" can be bad for the soul...

I've found that many men I've worked around are same. The issue is, they see it as a "masculinity" problem but I see it it as good manners. To be able to say what's plainly true. Sure, there's a line where it can become "being an ***hole" but I find that in most social situations there's this creeping feeling in the background and everyone is holding back and pretending because they don't see where that line is. Maybe they refuse to see it because of serotonergic health etc. But it's been a constant observation of mine for several years.

FWIW, due to health reasons I've typically been weaker than most men so I understand the "pacifying" you speak of.

 

[akgrrrl]

I have traveled alone with a backpack in 26 countries. I have driven in 45 of these United States logging at least 100,000 miles and having retail stores in 3 states.
If I had failed to listen and act to every single aspect with my instincts and maintain my personal standards, I would be dead.

 

[Hugh Johnson]

Thanks. I hadn't considered the male perspective on this because it has always seemed to me that there was more pressure on women to be the sort of social "pacifiers" and be "nice." But I guess the social pressures on men to behave a certain way plays out too. Being indiscriminately "nice" can be bad for the soul...

Might I recommend Radical Honesty? That is great for pushovers. Shows you that being honest is typically the best option.

I would also point out that you should seek to serve, as much as you can. However, allowing yourself to be mistreated is not part of it. Many who dedicate their lives to service are very tough, because they know they have no time to waste and they must take care of themselves first.

 

[akgrrrl]

Might I recommend Radical Honesty? That is great for pushovers. Shows you that being honest is typically the best option.

I would also point out that you should seek to serve, as much as you can. However, allowing yourself to be mistreated is not part of it. Many who dedicate their lives to service are very tough, because they know they have no time to waste and they must take care of themselves first.

THIS!

 

[T-3]

Animalcule's original post is one of the smartest reflections on this topic I've seen. The thoughtful responses it elicited, too, are highly relatable and relevant to health. Thanks for posting on this challenging topic, everyone.

 

[Atelier]

Forgiving yourself for not being on top of every negative situations is important I believe, and it is the first step towards empowerment.
Afterall, we are all human, and not mighty powerful.
I understand how frustrating it can be to be someone who has a hard time to insist you don't when dealing with people who insist you do.
But the next empowering thing is to realize that you are entirely responsible for changing route when you really didn't want to.
Otherwise, you will keep seeing yourself as the victim of a situation, and worse, your own victim : you harbor intense resentment towards yourself for not standing firm on your ground. You can start not trusting yourself for your own protection, and that can trigger so much stress in your life.
You don't need to become agressive or avoidant to solve the situation you hate.
Some people ar indeed pushy, but it is also natural. In nature, animals fend for themselves, take whatever they can to survive.
I think that the people who are the most listened to are those who don't need to be pushy or agressive to get what they want. Maybe they won't get it everytime, but they can be so graceful, and seem to have zero doubt in them.
Maybe you can find inspiration in movie characters who are likable yet know and act on what they want?
Maybe you can train, act situations when you're by yourself, practice phrases like "wait, I need to think about it".
You can express your discomfort gracefully. "I'm not sure I'm comfortable with the situation".

I always think that people who are overly assertive and pushy, actually act on an internal stress and self-doubt. If you envy their aptitude to get their way on every occasion, you might just be like them and end up like them.

As for the woman with the dirty car, why do you use the idea of intuition, or instinct, when it seems more like a simple question of dislike?
She's not hiding anything obviously. Her car is dirty, it's a visible fact.
In the end nothing bad happened, you didn't have an accident, so the negative instinct you had about the situation didn't show a result.
You just sat through a situation you personally disliked : bad smell, messy car, and not having insisted enough to ride with your car.
It feels to me like you need to morally judge the person to justify your dislike.
It's not like you had to sign a contract with her or marry her, or rent her a room in your apartment.
Maybe she will have an accident down the road, who knows and let's hope not, but accidents happen with brand new cars too.
As for her messy side, she could be going through difficult times, she could be raising kids alone, have dogs, could be taking care of a parent, have a temporary health issue.... or even be a creative type.
Trust me, there are plenty of very neat people who are a total mess in their heads. I know some who create absolute misery around them and who are control freaks.
If you think messy people are to be judged as 'bad', here's a nice perspective :

The 6 Hidden Strengths of Being a Messy Person

Messy people have the edge: They're relaxed, flexible,and probably more intelligent than neat freaks.

www.readersdigest.ca

I for instance, have been organised and rather neat at times, and messy at other times. Moving a lot, changing country, taking care of my mom, splitting with a boyfriend, having a very complicated family, and also physical pain from a back condition, all this gradually contributed to a more messy bend.
My previous car became so dirty, when I got a dog, but I love my dog so much that I don't care (the new one also is gathering dirt between cleaning opportunities). I cleaned it when I was at the countryside because there it is more convenient, but otherwise, I much prefer to spend time with my dog outside in the woods, give him all he needs to be happy, than spend more time cleaning.
My car became smelly, and I didn't care. My car had 32 years to the meter, and I loved it. I gave it away to a young couple who love these old cars.
Someone like you would have looked down on me, thinking I'm a poor despicable bumb, and other people would smile and give me thumbs ups at the site of a good old mechanical car that was so well built and taken care of that it lasted 32 years without ever breaking down on the road. But it felt scarier to people who are used to new slick cars. I don't always feel safe in my new car, because I tend to drive faster, AND the tainted glass makes me more sleepy.

You never know what life can throw at you. Life itself is messy, and trying to control it too much is no more healthy than letting things go. People just do and choose what they want.

The best thing you can do for yourself is work on your traumas, PTSD, if I may.
I have those too. Most people do to various degrees.
It definitely can taint our experiences in life.
Besides this, I do have strong intuition, I've had many instances in life that proved it.
But it is very ilmportant I believe, that we put it to a test. Was there a result, a proof?
I keep track of that. When I don't have a proof, I leave it aside.
If we don't do that, we don't refine it and we are more prone to mistakes. We have to stay humble in my opinion, we can always make mistakes.
It's part of being human, nothing wrong with that.

 

[LUH 3417]

Just curious do you happen to have neck pain?