Progesterone vs. DHEA

[Dean]

What (if anything) can be divined from having a minor psychedelic trip-like response to taking 5 mg of DHEA? This was followed by several hours of a disassociated, mental heaviness (figurative) feeling--similar to a pot hangover.

 

[kineticz]

What (if anything) can be divined from having a minor psychedelic trip-like response to taking 5 mg of DHEA? This was followed by several hours of a disassociated, mental heaviness (figurative) feeling--similar to a pot hangover.

Pregnenolone sparing, then your basal metabolic rate hit it's obviously very narrow limit, and you bottomed out adrenal wise. Prolactin went up. Pot is known to downregulate dopamine receptors.

 

[Dean]

Thanks kineticz. So would that mean I could potentially benefit from taking Pregnenolone?

 

[kineticz]

Thanks kineticz. So would that mean I could potentially benefit from taking Pregnenolone?

You'd benefit from it but only after your metabolism and mitochondrial respiration are improved (e.g. lower serotonin and fatty acids). Taking pregnenolone is not good when metabolic rate is poor. It will simply weaken already weak signals in the adrenals particularly, as the body sees an excess of pregnenolone as reason to reduce the stress response (low stress response and low metabolism is NOT nice, as you partially encountered when you mention the weed hangover).

 

[Dean]

ok, kineticz...thanks.

 

[kineticz]

ok, kineticz...thanks.

I'm the same and have to be very careful with pregnenolone, in fact I'm avoiding it for now, as it can make improving energy take many steps forward or in my case many steps backward. It causes a glut in the metabolic pathways that is difficult to iron out especially if the body increases fatty acids to try and compensate for a reduction in adrenal activity.

All the best
Dan

 

[Dean]

Yeah, I didn't try any hormone supplements the first two times I tried Peating because my metabolism, digestion, liver function, etc. are such a wreck. I found some DHEA in my Dad's medicine cabinet and decided to give it a whirl to see what would happen. Thanks again for the explanation. I don't have a very scientific mind or the best concentration which makes it difficult for me to follow the bouncing ball on this kind of stuff. You can only imagine how long it takes me to read and somewhat decipher one of Peat's articles.

 

[Peata]

ok, kineticz...thanks.

I'm the same and have to be very careful with pregnenolone, in fact I'm avoiding it for now, as it can make improving energy take many steps forward or in my case many steps backward. It causes a glut in the metabolic pathways that is difficult to iron out especially if the body increases fatty acids to try and compensate for a reduction in adrenal activity.

All the best
Dan

You seem to know a lot about cortisol and pregnenolone. May I have your opinion on something? I had a post on here last spring about taking preg and feeling lightheaded, weak muscled, feeling of pressure in abdomen, increased thumping feeling of pulse, and just overall feeling bad. This came on especially strong with eating, which I assume had something to do with stimulating a metabolism that wasn't ready. I was wondering if you think it increased my cortisol too much.

I have PCOS which is a condition related to too much cortisol, btw. I also feel like crap when I have taken prednisone, where most people seem to report feeling great.

 

[answersfound]

From my experience, pregnenolone shouldn't be taken if you aren't taking Cytomel as well. I don't know why that is, but pregnenolone gave me a bad response. It's a very tricky supplement.

 

[kineticz]

ok, kineticz...thanks.

I'm the same and have to be very careful with pregnenolone, in fact I'm avoiding it for now, as it can make improving energy take many steps forward or in my case many steps backward. It causes a glut in the metabolic pathways that is difficult to iron out especially if the body increases fatty acids to try and compensate for a reduction in adrenal activity.

All the best
Dan

You seem to know a lot about cortisol and pregnenolone. May I have your opinion on something? I had a post on here last spring about taking preg and feeling lightheaded, weak muscled, feeling of pressure in abdomen, increased thumping feeling of pulse, and just overall feeling bad. This came on especially strong with eating, which I assume had something to do with stimulating a metabolism that wasn't ready. I was wondering if you think it increased my cortisol too much.

I have PCOS which is a condition related to too much cortisol, btw. I also feel like crap when I have taken prednisone, where most people seem to report feeling great.

Hi Peata.

The symptoms sound like increased TRH and adrenal suppression. It could also be excess cortisol but excess cortisol usually makes you more prone to anxiety and general nervousness, rather than weak muscles etc.

When I was at the end of abusing my pregnenolone supplements, I felt nauseous, weak muscled, light headed, increased blood pressure, panic attacks, etc.

What form of pregnenolone did you take and what dose, how long?

When dealing with pregnenolone, we have to remember that besides cortisol the only other hormones that increase with metabolism are androgens. So if for some reason you are not built to accept increased androgens, the cortisol to dhea ratio will rise in favour of catabolism, and then you end up worse than you started with ACTH negative feedback.

In PCOS, hyperandrogenism in the ovaries is a problem according to some reading on Google just now. I didn't know you were female, so this adds up to a problem with adding pregnenolone in a body that has a disease that tips the balance as a form of protection.

It's all about excesses, deficiencies, protection mechanisms, feedback mechanisms, receptor density/sensitivity, enzyme deficiencies, glandular defects, any of these can and will make pregnenolone, the master hormone, difficult to implement without due care.

 

[kineticz]

From my experience, pregnenolone shouldn't be taken if you aren't taking Cytomel as well. I don't know why that is, but pregnenolone gave me a bad response. It's a very tricky supplement.

Cytomel, or T3, activates the transfer of cholesterol into the mitochondria to make pregnenolone, followed by pregnenolone dispersal down the adrenal and gonadal pathways for hormone synthesis.


The fact you always need cytomel tells me that any one or more of the following is possible:

a) your basal metabolic rate is low
b) your mitochondrial respiration and density is low
c) your androgenic sensitivity is high, suppressing ACTH and therefore internal pregnenolone stimulation
d) your androgenic sensitivity is deficient, increasing the ratio of cortisol to dhea, creating excess cortisol
e) your LDL cholesterol supply is low or liver is sluggish hence the continued low metabolic rate


Also, the form of pregnenolone matters.

If I take standard (cheap) oral pregnenolone, it is extremely tricky. Only doses 10mg or lower can SOMEtimes help. 100mg is game over in terms of depersonalisation.
If I take lipid matrix micronized oral (to bypass the liver), I need to take lots to feel positive effects. Lower doses seem to have no or marginal effect.
If I apply transdermal pregnenolone, I get increased cortisol almost immediately, and some benefits in wellbeing, but no benefits in DHEA or sex hormones.

Basically, the key to pregnenolone, is can your cholesterol get into the mitochondria, and can your nutrients, glands, and enzymes manage the distribution evenly. Any one of these steps out of line and a bottleneck and negative feedback ensues.

This is why the type of pregnenolone matters, because it reflects the state of your flow of energy in and out the mitochondria.

 

[answersfound]

From my experience, pregnenolone shouldn't be taken if you aren't taking Cytomel as well. I don't know why that is, but pregnenolone gave me a bad response. It's a very tricky supplement.

Cytomel, or T3, activates the transfer of cholesterol into the mitochondria to make pregnenolone, followed by pregnenolone dispersal down the adrenal and gonadal pathways for hormone synthesis.


The fact you always need cytomel tells me that any one or more of the following is possible:

a) your basal metabolic rate is low
b) your mitochondrial respiration and density is low
c) your androgenic sensitivity is high, suppressing ACTH and therefore internal pregnenolone stimulation
d) your androgenic sensitivity is deficient, increasing the ratio of cortisol to dhea, creating excess cortisol
e) your LDL cholesterol supply is low or liver is sluggish hence the continued low metabolic rate


Also, the form of pregnenolone matters.

If I take standard (cheap) oral pregnenolone, it is extremely tricky. Only doses 10mg or lower can SOMEtimes help. 100mg is game over in terms of depersonalisation.
If I take lipid matrix micronized oral (to bypass the liver), I need to take lots to feel positive effects. Lower doses seem to have no or marginal effect.
If I apply transdermal pregnenolone, I get increased cortisol almost immediately, and some benefits in wellbeing, but no benefits in DHEA or sex hormones.

Basically, the key to pregnenolone, is can your cholesterol get into the mitochondria, and can your nutrients, glands, and enzymes manage the distribution evenly. Any one of these steps out of line and a bottleneck and negative feedback ensues.

This is why the type of pregnenolone matters, because it reflects the state of your flow of energy in and out the mitochondria.

Okay, thanks. I take a very high quality pregnenolone, to rule out any potential issues there. It's from health natural. it's not lipid matrix micronized oral. Yea I just can't figure this out. Sometimes I'll take pregnenolone and the cytomel and it works perfectly. Other times I'll get a poor response, depersonalization as you described. sweating, this feeling of being warm and cold at the same time. tired and wiped out. I only take 1.25 mcg of cytomel. And I take about 150-200 mg of pregnenolone with it. sometimes i take a large dose of 150-200 mg and feel great. other times i'll take it and feel awful. i guess I am taking too much pregnenolone, but I never know how to determine how much I need. ray says it's like a vitamin and you can't over do it. it's this giant guessing game. also, should i take the pregnenolone with each cytomel dose or once a day? I notice if i stop the pregnenolone for a bit because i've run out, that initial dose feels pretty good. but then the following dose, gives me a bad response.

should one increase the dose of pregnenolone if they are supplementing with cytomel vs. someone who is not supplementing with cytomel?

is there any pregnenolone that is idiot proof so i don't get this reaction? transdermal or the lipid matrix? this is driving me insane.

if the human body produces 30-50 mg of pregnenolone per day, why would taking more than that be necessary?

your insight would be greatly appreciated.



someone posted a similar response here to my experience:

viewtopic.php?t=2349&start=15

"I thing pregnenelone and its effects are highly dependent on the state of the user or their stress and hormones at the time its absorbed. There have been times where experimented with 150 mg and felt fine or better, like ti was doing its job. Then there are times where that's not the case. I recall once taking just 50 mg and feeling horrendous- I was slipping into an uncontrollable, psychotic despondency with a really strange sort of listless anxiety. Like an impossible combination of apathy and feeling a deep nothingness, being very tired, but also being alert, panicky, almost violent and unable to sleep. Truly losing my mind, but somewhat interesting in how unique and encompassing an experience it was. I woke up and didn't feel much better. It was concerning, but eventually wore off after a couple days. Needless to say I hadn't touched the stuff for a while, until I gave it another shot a few days ago. Only this time I wasn't drinking coffee, had gotten a good nights rest, and took it with plently of OJ and milk. Totally different feeling afterward. Steady, pleasant energy without a crash."

 

[kineticz]

Standard oral pregnenolone, high quality or not, makes no difference it still passes through the liver and spikes preg. It is not the best form to take. The initial dose always works as it temporarily backfills your used preg during a boost in metabolism. Any more preg and it will kill your adrenal activity.

Transdermal is the most reliable and risk free application.

 

[kineticz]

Besides, this is where I disagree with Ray. It IS possible to overdo pregnenolone. He is anti-ACTH, but if you take too much pregnenolone, you will downregulate it, and feel depersonalised. I see forum members reporting this time and time again.

ACTH is a key stimulator of pregnenolone and therefore mood. Most pregnenolone mitochondria are in the adrenal cortex.

It is better to have high ACTH and low thyroid than low thyroid and low ACTH. He needs to warn people of this disclaimer.

Another theory is that pregnenolone is shown to stimulate a 5-Alpha reductase enzyme in the liver, and also a benzo type reaction. If this boosts internal pregnenolone, it will tell the adrenals that a stress response is not required, and still downregulate ACTH, leading to increased TRH and prolactin in it's attempt to invigorate adrenal enzymes and sustain energy production.

 

[kineticz]

"I thing pregnenelone and its effects are highly dependent on the state of the user or their stress and hormones at the time its absorbed. There have been times where experimented with 150 mg and felt fine or better, like ti was doing its job. Then there are times where that's not the case. I recall once taking just 50 mg and feeling horrendous- I was slipping into an uncontrollable, psychotic despondency with a really strange sort of listless anxiety. Like an impossible combination of apathy and feeling a deep nothingness, being very tired, but also being alert, panicky, almost violent and unable to sleep. Truly losing my mind, but somewhat interesting in how unique and encompassing an experience it was. I woke up and didn't feel much better. It was concerning, but eventually wore off after a couple days. Needless to say I hadn't touched the stuff for a while, until I gave it another shot a few days ago. Only this time I wasn't drinking coffee, had gotten a good nights rest, and took it with plently of OJ and milk. Totally different feeling afterward. Steady, pleasant energy without a crash."

I've had that reaction several times using oral pregnenolone. Transdermal never does it, no matter what my metabolic rate and stress.

 

[answersfound]

Besides, this is where I disagree with Ray. It IS possible to overdo pregnenolone. He is anti-ACTH, but if you take too much pregnenolone, you will downregulate it, and feel depersonalised. I see forum members reporting this time and time again.

ACTH is a key stimulator of pregnenolone and therefore mood. Most pregnenolone mitochondria are in the adrenal cortex.

It is better to have high ACTH and low thyroid than low thyroid and low ACTH. He needs to warn people of this disclaimer.

Another theory is that pregnenolone is shown to stimulate a 5-Alpha reductase enzyme in the liver, and also a benzo type reaction. If this boosts internal pregnenolone, it will tell the adrenals that a stress response is not required, and still downregulate ACTH, leading to increased TRH and prolactin in it's attempt to invigorate adrenal enzymes and sustain energy production.

Okay can you elaborate on the purpose of bio lipid matrix versions of pregnenolone. Ray has said its a waste of money.is it superior to standard oral?

 

[sweetpeat]

I've had good results lately with sub-lingual pregnenolone. Have you tried this form?

 

[kineticz]

Besides, this is where I disagree with Ray. It IS possible to overdo pregnenolone. He is anti-ACTH, but if you take too much pregnenolone, you will downregulate it, and feel depersonalised. I see forum members reporting this time and time again.

ACTH is a key stimulator of pregnenolone and therefore mood. Most pregnenolone mitochondria are in the adrenal cortex.

It is better to have high ACTH and low thyroid than low thyroid and low ACTH. He needs to warn people of this disclaimer.

Another theory is that pregnenolone is shown to stimulate a 5-Alpha reductase enzyme in the liver, and also a benzo type reaction. If this boosts internal pregnenolone, it will tell the adrenals that a stress response is not required, and still downregulate ACTH, leading to increased TRH and prolactin in it's attempt to invigorate adrenal enzymes and sustain energy production.

Okay can you elaborate on the purpose of bio lipid matrix versions of pregnenolone. Ray has said its a waste of money.is it superior to standard oral?

Where does Ray say this about lipid matrix?

Transdermal is the safest option to try pregnenolone.

Standard oral will immediately spike pregnenolone and activates some enzymes in the liver that may or may not be desirable. Pituitary is very sensitive to spiking.

Lipid matrix is very safe but very expensive and I needed high doses to feel good.

 

[kineticz]

I've had good results lately with sub-lingual pregnenolone. Have you tried this form?

Never tried it, sorry sweatpeat, but as it's under the tongue it should be as safe as transdermal.

 

[answersfound]

Besides, this is where I disagree with Ray. It IS possible to overdo pregnenolone. He is anti-ACTH, but if you take too much pregnenolone, you will downregulate it, and feel depersonalised. I see forum members reporting this time and time again.

ACTH is a key stimulator of pregnenolone and therefore mood. Most pregnenolone mitochondria are in the adrenal cortex.

It is better to have high ACTH and low thyroid than low thyroid and low ACTH. He needs to warn people of this disclaimer.

Another theory is that pregnenolone is shown to stimulate a 5-Alpha reductase enzyme in the liver, and also a benzo type reaction. If this boosts internal pregnenolone, it will tell the adrenals that a stress response is not required, and still downregulate ACTH, leading to increased TRH and prolactin in it's attempt to invigorate adrenal enzymes and sustain energy production.

Okay can you elaborate on the purpose of bio lipid matrix versions of pregnenolone. Ray has said its a waste of money.is it superior to standard oral?

Where does Ray say this about lipid matrix?

Transdermal is the safest option to try pregnenolone.

Standard oral will immediately spike pregnenolone and activates some enzymes in the liver that may or may not be desirable. Pituitary is very sensitive to spiking.

Lipid matrix is very safe but very expensive and I needed high doses to feel good.

"Pregnenolone is a lipid, only pharmaceutical salesmen talk about the need for a lipid matrix. Most people don't have allergic reactions to the rice and magnesium stearate. "