Pregnenolone & DHEA Replenishment Dosage

[john2015]

Hi everyone,

I read on Ray Peat’s site at http://raypeat.com/articles/articles/th ... ones.shtml that Young people produce about 12 to 15 milligrams of DHEA per day, and that amount decreases by about 2 mg. per day for every decade after the age of 30. I also read that about 4MG of DHEA per day will usually replenish a 50 year olds DHEA levels to those found in youth. I am not doubting the information, but can anyone please provide the studies or scientific data that Ray likely used to come to these conclusions ? Any links or references would be appreciated.

What would be the likely replacement dose of pregnenolone to restore a 50 year olds levels to those found in youth ? If pregenolone production falls off at about the same rate as DHEA and if it is absorbed in about the same way, I would guess it would be around 10 MG. I come to this conclusion since Ray says that at 30, both men and women produce about 30 to 50 MG of pregnenolone daily. So, 12 MG of DHEA divided by 3 gives the 4 MG replacement dose of DHEA and 30 / 3 would give the 10 MG replacement dose of pregnenolone. I could well be wrong here, it's just a guess based on what I read at the site. Any studies, references, or scientific data regarding pregnenolone and replacement dosages would also be appreciated.

I am a 47 year old man and I would like to bring my pregnenolone and DHEA levels up to where they likely were at about 25- 30. I do not have a lot of money for blood tests (and there is no way to know now what my personal levels were at 25 to 30) but I would like to supplement with about 5 mg of pregnenolone and 5 mg of DHEA per day for awhile to see how it makes me feel. How long does it usually take to notice anything ?

I purchased some 10 mg pregnenolone tablets from Source Naturals, which I cut in half with a pill cutter. I usually get my supplements from iherb.com and I could get 5 mg micronized sublingual tablets from Douglas Laboratories, 5 mg tablets from Enzymatic Therapy, or I could get 10 mg tablets from Nutricology, Natrol, or Allergy research group,and split them. Does anyone have a recommendation for a brand of DHEA and/or pregnenolone that I can conveniently use in low 5 mg dosages ? Is delivery method important , e.g., sublingual, micronized, just swallowing the pill, etc..

Are there advantages or disadvantages to taking pregnenolone and DHEA together ? Is it likely desirable to take some type of aromotase inhibitor or estrogen modulator like DIM or Chrysin ? I think the problem with Chrysin is finding something that is bioavailable. At http://examine.com/stacks/anti-estrogen.html it says that Grape seed extract and Eurycoma Longifolia Jack can have anti-estrogen effects, but these seem to be somewhat expensive supplements, especially the Longjack. I also looked at super-miraforte made by LEF, but it is expensive as well.

As far as I know I am healthy. I have exercised for most of my life and as far as amount weight lifted, number of reps, etc., I still do as much as I always did. Strength wise I seem fine and still have a slim and athletic build. I think the main things I notice getting older is that I do not seem to have quite the energy I did in my twenties and early thirties, and I do not seem to sleep as soundly, i.e., I sleep a few hours then wake up. My sleep does not seem to be as restorative as it was when I was younger. Low dose (300 mcg of 6 hour time release melatonin seems to help, but does not make things like they were when younger). Sexually, everything functions and I am still motivated and still enjoy it, but drive and orgasms are not nearly as intense as they were in my twenties or early thirties. Orgasm used to be more of a "whole body" experience, I used to have and almost "high" or slightly dizzy / relaxed feeling afterwards. Now, the pleasure is more genitally focused, and not as satisfying overall. This may be a normal part of aging, but I would like to improve things if I can.

I think stress and boredom are part of the problem but also I think it's just getting older. I have tried various herbs like Ginseng, Rhodiola, and "Adrenal Health" by Gaia Herbs. I think these things helped a little but the affect was not as powerful as desired.

I would appreciate any help or suggestions anyone can offer. I would like to hear from anyone with similar experiences, along with what you tried that worked or did not work.

Thanks for your help.

Sincerely,
John

 

[johns74]

What would be the likely replacement dose of pregnenolone to restore a 50 year olds levels to those found in youth ?

Since an "excess" of pregnenolone doesn't cause side effects according to the research, it doesn't matter if we take too much to see what the effects are. If we don't absorb it well, we could need more than what our bodies produce to have the optimal effect.

Peat thinks 100 mg is a good starting amount. That's what I used and what I suggest. When pregnenolone was used to treat arthritis, the dose was 500 mg daily. More than that didn't cause more positive effects.

My suggestion is to start with 100 mg, then reduce the dose if it isn't necessary. Start with pregnenolone, and a few weeks later with DHEA, if you're not in a hurry. I expect the effects of pregnenolone to be noticed within a week.

EDIT: I see you already bought the 5 mg version. I would use them if that's what you have.

 

[johns74]

In case you haven't gotten to the dietary part of Peat's advice, he considers vegetable oils the most thyroid suppressing food of the modern diet (due to the polyunsaturated fats). If you consume them, avoiding them for a few months might improve your thyroid function and energy levels.

 

[john2015]

Thanks for the feedback Johns74.

There is another thing I would like to get some opinions on. I read about something called the "pregnenolone steal". My take on it is that if you are under stress, then the extra pregnenolone will be used to make cortisol instead of something more desirable. Is this likely rumor or is there any data to back it up ?

I found a recent pregnenolone study here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427920/. In the study is says "patients were randomized to pregnenolone (fixed escalating doses to 500 mg/day) or placebo, for 8 weeks." It also says "Pregnenolone administration also increased serum progesterone over fourfold and DHEAS levels by approximately 16% (Table 6). Treatment with pregnenolone did not increase serum testosterone, free testosterone, cortisol, DHEA, estradiol, or androstenedione levels (Table 6)." Here is a link to table 6...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

Unless I am mis-understanding something, the study seems to suggest no increase in cortisol, although we do not know the stress levels of the people in the study. It is interesting that pregnenolone increased DHEAS but not DHEA. Pregnenolone seemed to increase Progesterone more than anything else, but they seemed to use a large dose or at least a large ending dose.

In the article on Ray's site that I linked to in my first post, Ray suggested that perhaps Pregnenolone is a more safe way to raise DHEA than DHEA. The study directly above suggests no increase in DHEA, but perhaps DHEAS is what is really important ? Also, the study only lasted 8 weeks.

 

[tara]

Welcome John2015
I can't comment on DHEA and pregnenalone, but I will comment on sleep.
Peat does not recommend melatonin supplements.
Quite a few of us seem to have reduced liver glycogen storage capacity, which means it's harder to store enough to get us through the night. When the glycogen runs out, catabolic stress hormones keep the fuel supply up, waking us up in the process. Sugar helps keep the cortisol down; salt helps lower adrenaline. So making sure you are eating enough sugar (including fruit/juice/milk) through the day to restore glycogen, and having a sweet snack before sleep, might be the first thing to try. Bed time snack might be a drink of sweetened milk, or OJ with gelatin/cheese. When I wake up in the night (seldom at the moment, but has been frequent at times in the past), a small sweet snack usually helps me go back to sleep quickly. Some people find something sweet and salty helpful. There are other tactics, and threads describing what some people here have tried.

 

[johns74]

Unless I am mis-understanding something, the study seems to suggest no increase in cortisol, although we do not know the stress levels of the people in the study.

The experiences I read here is that taking pregnenolone under stress typically improves well being.

It's a big argument, and I don't know all the details, but Peat thinks the body uses pregnenolone in a very smart way, and it isn't going to induce a worse hormonal balance than before you took it. He thinks it's helpful even for excess cortisol.

 

[johns74]

It is interesting that pregnenolone increased DHEAS but not DHEA.

If I recall correctly, DHEA can be converted to DHEA-S, so maybe you get some of that effect as well when you take DHEA.

 

[sunmountain]

I'm a woman taking pregnenolone, DHEA, progesterone. Maybe some of my experience is helpful.

I started with progesterone and increased it to A LOT. Most people on this forum use Progest-e, which was invented by RP and is the strongest stuff around OTC and works very well.

Then I added preg in powder form. I haven't really figured out my optimal dosage for preg yet, even though it has helped me HUGELY. It has helped me to think. I had foggy brain. It or progest-e or both together (I think they are very synergistic) help me sleep deeply through the night. Of course eating a lot before bed, especially sugar, also helps with sleep. I had not slept for DECADES before the preg and prog combo.

I take anywhere from a small to large pinch of prog. I've experimented with up to a half tsp, maybe, but then I started getting some estrogen type symptoms so backed off to a lower dose, and am now fine.

Recently I added DHEA. I started with 4mg sublingual by Douglas Labs because I had that lying around from when a Naturopath had prescribed it to me a year or two ago. One very interesting and unexpected thing that happened with DHEA was that I started peeing properly again! Only when I started peeing propertly, I realized that how little I had been peeing, and how that had contributed to my edema. This was a wonderful gift!

The downside of the DHEA was that I found it hard to fall asleep at night. So I cut back to 2.5. Still peeing nicely and still awake at night. Today I took 1mg and will see what happens.

I hope this might be helpful to you.

 

[john2015]

Thanks for the additional information everyone, I appreciate it.

John

 

[haidut]

Thanks for the feedback Johns74.

There is another thing I would like to get some opinions on. I read about something called the "pregnenolone steal". My take on it is that if you are under stress, then the extra pregnenolone will be used to make cortisol instead of something more desirable. Is this likely rumor or is there any data to back it up ?

I found a recent pregnenolone study here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427920/. In the study is says "patients were randomized to pregnenolone (fixed escalating doses to 500 mg/day) or placebo, for 8 weeks." It also says "Pregnenolone administration also increased serum progesterone over fourfold and DHEAS levels by approximately 16% (Table 6). Treatment with pregnenolone did not increase serum testosterone, free testosterone, cortisol, DHEA, estradiol, or androstenedione levels (Table 6)." Here is a link to table 6...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

Unless I am mis-understanding something, the study seems to suggest no increase in cortisol, although we do not know the stress levels of the people in the study. It is interesting that pregnenolone increased DHEAS but not DHEA. Pregnenolone seemed to increase Progesterone more than anything else, but they seemed to use a large dose or at least a large ending dose.

In the article on Ray's site that I linked to in my first post, Ray suggested that perhaps Pregnenolone is a more safe way to raise DHEA than DHEA. The study directly above suggests no increase in DHEA, but perhaps DHEAS is what is really important ? Also, the study only lasted 8 weeks.

I was reading this study for an unrelated reason and I noticed something that I hope is a typo. If you look inside Table 6, you will see that at week 0 estradiol levels were 24.65pg/ml. Then at week 8 the number says 2542pg/ml, which is a HUGE MASSIVE increase unless this is a typo and they meant 25.42 (with a decimal point)!!! Have you, by any chance, contacted the authors to see if this is indeed a typo or not? If not a typo, pregnenolone in doses of 500mg daily seems to be insanely estrogenic. I hope it is a typo...

 

[kineticz]

I can tell you that too much standard oral pregnenolone DOES cause issues if your basal metabolic rate is low and mitochondria are damaged.

ACTH suppression and depersonalisation are known to occur and horrendous to get out of.

Transdermal or lipid matrix preg avoid this risk.

 

[acrylic]

Thanks for the feedback Johns74.

There is another thing I would like to get some opinions on. I read about something called the "pregnenolone steal". My take on it is that if you are under stress, then the extra pregnenolone will be used to make cortisol instead of something more desirable. Is this likely rumor or is there any data to back it up ?

I found a recent pregnenolone study here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427920/. In the study is says "patients were randomized to pregnenolone (fixed escalating doses to 500 mg/day) or placebo, for 8 weeks." It also says "Pregnenolone administration also increased serum progesterone over fourfold and DHEAS levels by approximately 16% (Table 6). Treatment with pregnenolone did not increase serum testosterone, free testosterone, cortisol, DHEA, estradiol, or androstenedione levels (Table 6)." Here is a link to table 6...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

Unless I am mis-understanding something, the study seems to suggest no increase in cortisol, although we do not know the stress levels of the people in the study. It is interesting that pregnenolone increased DHEAS but not DHEA. Pregnenolone seemed to increase Progesterone more than anything else, but they seemed to use a large dose or at least a large ending dose.

In the article on Ray's site that I linked to in my first post, Ray suggested that perhaps Pregnenolone is a more safe way to raise DHEA than DHEA. The study directly above suggests no increase in DHEA, but perhaps DHEAS is what is really important ? Also, the study only lasted 8 weeks.

I was reading this study for an unrelated reason and I noticed something that I hope is a typo. If you look inside Table 6, you will see that at week 0 estradiol levels were 24.65pg/ml. Then at week 8 the number says 2542pg/ml, which is a HUGE MASSIVE increase unless this is a typo and they meant 25.42 (with a decimal point)!!! Have you, by any chance, contacted the authors to see if this is indeed a typo or not? If not a typo, pregnenolone in doses of 500mg daily seems to be insanely estrogenic. I hope it is a typo...

Did you guys ever get closure on this issue? If pregnenolone massively increases estrogen levels, this would change Peat-community perception (and what Ray says) about the substance...

 

[tara]

As kineticz says, it does not seem to be true that excess pregnenalone cannot have negative side-effects. There are several posts around the forum describing negative reactions (as well as a number describing positive reactions). I think Peat used lots of it for a while. He has also recommended in specific cases something like 100mg once a week. Maybe he has also recommended higher and lower doses in other contexts.

 

[acrylic]

UPDATE: I emailed one of the authors of the paper and got the following response.

"Hmm, Table 6 in the PDF I just pulled up says 25.42 for the “post” estradiol level in the pregnenolone group (rather than 2542). This a PDF saved on my laptop, I am not able to check the version in pubmed at the moment but will do so. Or perhaps you have a copy of a copy, and some areas copied better than others? Not sure why there would be more than one version out there, that is an unsettling thought – thank you again for being in touch.

In any event, definitely no estradiol elevations post-treatment. Thank you very much for bringing this to my attention, and for your interest in the paper."

So, it looks like we're good!

 

[haidut]

Thanks for the feedback Johns74.

There is another thing I would like to get some opinions on. I read about something called the "pregnenolone steal". My take on it is that if you are under stress, then the extra pregnenolone will be used to make cortisol instead of something more desirable. Is this likely rumor or is there any data to back it up ?

I found a recent pregnenolone study here http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3427920/. In the study is says "patients were randomized to pregnenolone (fixed escalating doses to 500 mg/day) or placebo, for 8 weeks." It also says "Pregnenolone administration also increased serum progesterone over fourfold and DHEAS levels by approximately 16% (Table 6). Treatment with pregnenolone did not increase serum testosterone, free testosterone, cortisol, DHEA, estradiol, or androstenedione levels (Table 6)." Here is a link to table 6...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... /table/T6/

Unless I am mis-understanding something, the study seems to suggest no increase in cortisol, although we do not know the stress levels of the people in the study. It is interesting that pregnenolone increased DHEAS but not DHEA. Pregnenolone seemed to increase Progesterone more than anything else, but they seemed to use a large dose or at least a large ending dose.

In the article on Ray's site that I linked to in my first post, Ray suggested that perhaps Pregnenolone is a more safe way to raise DHEA than DHEA. The study directly above suggests no increase in DHEA, but perhaps DHEAS is what is really important ? Also, the study only lasted 8 weeks.

I was reading this study for an unrelated reason and I noticed something that I hope is a typo. If you look inside Table 6, you will see that at week 0 estradiol levels were 24.65pg/ml. Then at week 8 the number says 2542pg/ml, which is a HUGE MASSIVE increase unless this is a typo and they meant 25.42 (with a decimal point)!!! Have you, by any chance, contacted the authors to see if this is indeed a typo or not? If not a typo, pregnenolone in doses of 500mg daily seems to be insanely estrogenic. I hope it is a typo...

Did you guys ever get closure on this issue? If pregnenolone massively increases estrogen levels, this would change Peat-community perception (and what Ray says) about the substance...

Yep, it is a typo. If you look at the study in PDF format there is a decimal point and it makes the estrogen levels basically the same as the control group.

 

[MIP1950]

At the three week mark on 500mg daily pregnenolone, the three impressive changes have been that my long standing low grade depression, irritability and overall disenchantment with life have evaporated(and hopefully will not return), my libido feels more like it did when I was 25(I'm 65) and my body temperature in running between 97.5 and 98.2. Erectile function has improved a little but I'm still a work in progress.

I'm taking pharma grade micronized powder mixed with a few drops of olive oil and 2500IU of vitamin D liquid in coconut oil. As I've previously posted, I also have testosterone pellets implanted but when my response was unimpressive, I discussed taking preg with my urologist in order to upregulate and restore my HPTA axis. He agreed with that strategy. Labs coming up in the middle of September.

 

[marcar72]

Since December I've been taking 50 mg/day of pregnenolone. Every now and then I'll take 5 mg of DHEA, usually when I feel I need some extra healing power. I'll probably eventually make it a daily thing (currently 43 yrs old)... :2cents

I would also just mention that Vitamin A is just as important, especially for testosterone production. So Vitamin A status plays a very important role in hormone production and is probably the difference in people who react badly to pregnenolone vs. the people who get results... :2cents

 

[sladerunner69]

I am wondering whether there is truly no DHEA receptor or not. As I ahve been supplementing DHEA for a few weeks and the response seems to be wearing thin to the same dosage. If there was no receptor than my body would not build up any sort of tolereance (theoretically) but it seems to be anyway.

 

[Gigs]

I can tell you that too much standard oral pregnenolone DOES cause issues if your basal metabolic rate is low and mitochondria are damaged.

ACTH suppression and depersonalisation are known to occur and horrendous to get out of.

Transdermal or lipid matrix preg avoid this risk.

First time posting
Tried using a 10mg Preg lozenge and found (very quickly) it created anger for me. Suddenly I'm an ***hole! (& I mean, I have my moments, but usually in no way like what this made me feel & do & say . There was a brief period of mental clarity & physical energy before the anger kicked in I have to say) Stopped using it just as quickly and now am back to feeling a bit sad & embarrassed) It pretty much happened the twice I took it over a couple of days in consecutive weeks, so fairly certain that's what did it. Does this seem to be a common side effect? (female, post-meno, normally just using Progesterone cream, a 75mcg Synthroid generic, recently starting to use fruits, milk, niacinamide, gelatin etc) & reading up on how to benefit from Peat nutritional ideas. Would Preg be turning into testosterone? & so quickly? Any ideas on why & if it is, should I supp with Preg at all given that reaction? My main goals are upping metabolism (raising lower temp/heart rate), & attaining some control over the juggernaut of creeping belly fat. Have otherwise not gained excessive body fat any other place but there in the past 5 or so years.

 

[Gl;itch.e]

First time posting
Tried using a 10mg Preg lozenge and found (very quickly) it created anger for me. Suddenly I'm an ***hole! (& I mean, I have my moments, but usually in no way like what this made me feel & do & say . There was a brief period of mental clarity & physical energy before the anger kicked in I have to say) Stopped using it just as quickly and now am back to feeling a bit sad & embarrassed) It pretty much happened the twice I took it over a couple of days in consecutive weeks, so fairly certain that's what did it. Does this seem to be a common side effect? (female, post-meno, normally just using Progesterone cream, a 75mcg Synthroid generic, recently starting to use fruits, milk, niacinamide, gelatin etc) & reading up on how to benefit from Peat nutritional ideas. Would Preg be turning into testosterone? & so quickly? Any ideas on why & if it is, should I supp with Preg at all given that reaction? My main goals are upping metabolism (raising lower temp/heart rate), & attaining some control over the juggernaut of creeping belly fat. Have otherwise not gained excessive body fat any other place but there in the past 5 or so years.

Don't be so quick to blame Testosterone. It gets a bad rap for all negative "male" reactions. Its more likely to be cortisol from lowering blood sugar.