DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

[tankasnowgod]

@tankasnowgod I'm going back too long to check with the guys I used to train with but appreciate the T vs Prog/DHEA comparison ratios would be relevant.

I've been able to gain weight doing this but my calorie sources might need to be cleaner. With sugar being ok in the Peat world it tricks (my mind at least) into thinking that chocolate/cakes etc are ok. I may have gained a little muscle but most of the weight I gained since starting this seems to be belly fat. When I've felt at my best in years gone by I have felt enthusiastic about working out & even better for doing it. Also what I ate seemed to matter far less. Feeling anabolic under those conditions I slept great & could feel my clothes getting tighter in the right places & I felt more vigorous. Now the complete opposite is the case.

My dosages have been 20mg prog twice a day. My perception is that I've felt more androgenic when I've not used DHEA with it.

Cool. One thing to keep in mind is the time of year, and also the COVID related stress that's affecting everyone, to some degree. It's possible that if you ran the same type of experiment in 2018, you would have seen more dramatic results with the same dose. You might also see better results now that it's spring as well.

 

[Andman]

I've been trying to mimic what Haidut said his bodybuilder friend used, so it's higher..... about 120mg a day Prog, with 10mg DHEA, divided into two doses. At that dose, I have certainly noticed the "Anti-Catabolic Effects." I've been taking it orally, because I can be really consistent doing it that way. I did notice similar effects when doing it topically at maybe 1/4 the amount, but I was very inconsistent that way.

Testosterone may indeed have similar (or even better) effects (especially if it's base T), but for me, OTC Prog+DHEA had far superior effects to whatever was in that Test Cream. Yeah, it might be a higher dose, but the $ cost over time is far lower with what I am doing now. Oh, and with no weird vision side effects. Not any side effects that I noticed at all.

Two things I would do, were I in your shoes..... first, track calories and see if you're eating enough. If you want to gain mass, you simply need to eat more (a problem I wish I had). You might see great results at the dose you're using simply by eating more. Second, if you know those with positive experiences with Testosterone, track them down and ask how much they were taking per day. Remember, Haidut's bodybuilder friend said 150mg Prog with 15mg DHEA a day was equal to 75mg Testosterone a day. If you were taking 20mg Prog and comparing it to a friend who took, say, 40mg Test, well, that would in no way stack up based on the original comparison.

Thanks for the update! Glad to hear its working for you. Still no libido loss/genital anesthesia etc.? Do you take any other supplements currently?

@Spartan300 by the way, if its body composition benefits youre looking for id agree its mostly calories in - calories out. its pretty easy to get fat even on high dose T, from personal experience

 

[Bad Linhat]

I've been trying to mimic what Haidut said his bodybuilder friend used, so it's higher..... about 120mg a day Prog, with 10mg DHEA, divided into two doses. At that dose, I have certainly noticed the "Anti-Catabolic Effects." I've been taking it orally, because I can be really consistent doing it that way. I did notice similar effects when doing it topically at maybe 1/4 the amount, but I was very inconsistent that way.

Testosterone may indeed have similar (or even better) effects (especially if it's base T), but for me, OTC Prog+DHEA had far superior effects to whatever was in that Test Cream. Yeah, it might be a higher dose, but the $ cost over time is far lower with what I am doing now. Oh, and with no weird vision side effects. Not any side effects that I noticed at all.

Two things I would do, were I in your shoes..... first, track calories and see if you're eating enough. If you want to gain mass, you simply need to eat more (a problem I wish I had). You might see great results at the dose you're using simply by eating more. Second, if you know those with positive experiences with Testosterone, track them down and ask how much they were taking per day. Remember, Haidut's bodybuilder friend said 150mg Prog with 15mg DHEA a day was equal to 75mg Testosterone a day. If you were taking 20mg Prog and comparing it to a friend who took, say, 40mg Test, well, that would in no way stack up based on the original comparison.

Danny Roddy on his Telegram account report this quote from dr. Peat:

["MALE" PROGESTERONE?] "No. Pregnenolone as a first thing and then DHEA if you need a more androgenic thing the pregnenolone will push your neural steroids the crucial regulating things that you don't want to throw out of balance. With a strong androgen like DHT that would be one a big risk that you could have throw off your neuro steroids."

Ray Peat, PhD (2020)

This quote and the fact that Haidut never give feedback on his bodybuilder friend discouraged me on trying progesterone.
I'm doing well on DHEA (5mg a day) and 1 times a week 50mg pregnenolone.
I will try to up my pregnenolone intake after reading this quote from dr. Peat

 

[johnwester130]

Danny Roddy on his Telegram account report this quote from dr. Peat:



This quote and the fact that Haidut never give feedback on his bodybuilder friend discouraged me on trying progesterone.
I'm doing well on DHEA (5mg a day) and 1 times a week 50mg pregnenolone.
I will try to up my pregnenolone intake after reading this quote from dr. Peat

Would T base powder with progesterone work

about 1mg each per drop

 

[Spartan300]

Week 17 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156.4lb 16.8% bf

This isn't working for me. The four pounds I have gained in the approx 4 months of this experiment feel entirely like bodyfat. I used this experiment to consume more calories and have seen no improvement in body composition, exercise capacity or other markers of a good metabolism.

I have mentioned in posts a few times that I had a eureka moment 4 years back when everything came together for reasons I was never able to determine but I largely believe that it was low stress when for the first time in a few years I went to bed knowing that I was going to sleep and did. I woke up the next day feeling like I did decades ago. My waking temps were higher than I had ever recorded them at 36.7 or 36.8. This lasted around 4 or 5 days until when, because I was feeling great I overdid it in the gym and have been back in the hole ever since.

When that brief beautiful window happened I wasn't taking half of the things I am taking now and I certainly hadn't yet dabbled in hormones. So I think for the sake of restoring a natural balance I will aim to work towards removing all supplements that I wasn't using at that point.
Not that I have been taking much, around 8 or 16mcg T3, I dropped the thyroid this week. I'd been taking it for around a year. It didn't seem to do anything for my temps but may have improved my mood. I've not used cypro for a couple of weeks. This week I'll drop the am dose of prog & go down to 20mg before bed.
Tbh, nearly all supplements I have tried have not produced the claimed results.

 

[Mossy]

Week 17 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156.4lb 16.8% bf

This isn't working for me. The four pounds I have gained in the approx 4 months of this experiment feel entirely like bodyfat. I used this experiment to consume more calories and have seen no improvement in body composition, exercise capacity or other markers of a good metabolism.

I have mentioned in posts a few times that I had a eureka moment 4 years back when everything came together for reasons I was never able to determine but I largely believe that it was low stress when for the first time in a few years I went to bed knowing that I was going to sleep and did. I woke up the next day feeling like I did decades ago. My waking temps were higher than I had ever recorded them at 36.7 or 36.8. This lasted around 4 or 5 days until when, because I was feeling great I overdid it in the gym and have been back in the hole ever since.

When that brief beautiful window happened I wasn't taking half of the things I am taking now and I certainly hadn't yet dabbled in hormones. So I think for the sake of restoring a natural balance I will aim to work towards removing all supplements that I wasn't using at that point.
Not that I have been taking much, around 8 or 16mcg T3, I dropped the thyroid this week. I'd been taking it for around a year. It didn't seem to do anything for my temps but may have improved my mood. I've not used cypro for a couple of weeks. This week I'll drop the am dose of prog & go down to 20mg before bed.
Tbh, nearly all supplements I have tried have not produced the claimed results.

Thanks for the continued updates. In many ways my health journey is like yours. I have some short-term successes with supplements, but never long term, and the times of feeling my best are supplement free. Even so, I still have a long list of “to trys”, which I hope is the bridge back to that supplement free state. But, in our current world, or just for some, maybe that free state is the exception.

 

[Sefton10]

When that brief beautiful window happened I wasn't taking half of the things I am taking now and I certainly hadn't yet dabbled in hormones. So I think for the sake of restoring a natural balance I will aim to work towards removing all supplements that I wasn't using at that point.

It's a big issue in this space and something I'm definitely guilty of myself. Too much focus on what we can add when via negativa is often the better approach. Even Ray himself consistently says many would experience better results by stopping most of the supplements.

 

[Spartan300]

Week 18 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 157lb 16.9% bf

Other than the prog I've only used a little B3 this week which doesn't seem to do anything much. Libido has pretty much tanked this week & I'm not sure why. Still thinking digestion might be the issue. In spite of the preferences among the community for red meat, during the brief stint where things fell into place I was eating more fish (cod) which is definitely easier for me to digest.
Also considering another attempt with reducing starch but I find I run out of energy quickly as I'm doing a manual job.

Edit: Just realised I've not taken any thyroid for a couple of weeks which may be influencing things

 

[Spartan300]

Week 19 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156lb 16.6% bf

Currently using 20mg prog before bed. This week I cut out most of the 'extras' in my diet - chocolate etc and I substituted fruits for starch as much as I could in an effort to get a bit leaner.

One real point of interest this week was that around the middle of the week I received and started using molecular hydrogen tablets. I'll continue to monitor & will likely report in one of the existing hydrogen threads but initial indications are that this could make a big difference to me.
I slept pretty well the night after taking the first tablet in water and woke up feeling really good. Libido was strongly back on-line and I felt very similar to the way I did when things came together in late 2016. I just need to see if this improvement holds and starts to also restore exercise capacity & recovery.

Many thanks to @TripleOG for pointing me in this direction in this thread.

 

[Chophouse360]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

So a total of 15 mg of dhea and 150 mg of progesterone daily?

 

[TripleOG]

Week 19 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156lb 16.6% bf

Currently using 20mg prog before bed. This week I cut out most of the 'extras' in my diet - chocolate etc and I substituted fruits for starch as much as I could in an effort to get a bit leaner.

One real point of interest this week was that around the middle of the week I received and started using molecular hydrogen tablets. I'll continue to monitor & will likely report in one of the existing hydrogen threads but initial indications are that this could make a big difference to me.
I slept pretty well the night after taking the first tablet in water and woke up feeling really good. Libido was strongly back on-line and I felt very similar to the way I did when things came together in late 2016. I just need to see if this improvement holds and starts to also restore exercise capacity & recovery.

Many thanks to @TripleOG for pointing me in this direction in this thread.

Glad I can help.

Hope you continue to improve.

 

[Spartan300]

Week 20 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156.6lb 16.8% bf

Still dosing one/day at 20mg whilst I still have a supply of prog. If I decide to re-focus on this I might try an oral powder.

No breakthroughs to report. The hydrogen tablets might be making a small difference but the initial response seems to have tapered off sadly.

 

[Yucca]

I didn’t read all your thread, but just add pregnenolone, and you’ll see results. Maybe up to 100-150mg ED though.

 

[Spartan300]

Thanks @Yucca have you seen results doing this? If so over what period of time?

I believe someone also suggested high dose preg earlier in the thread.

 

[Yucca]

Yes, I feel that about 150mg preg + 10mg prog (progestogel cream) + 10mg dhea is about the same as a TRT for me. I’m 54, and my morning woods are the same now (or even better!) as when I was 16.
But it can possibly be different for anyone else. You have to try. Begin with 50mg preg only. I feel effects are anxiolytic for myself , so I used to take 100mg preg before sleep first, but you can take it also on mornings.
There’s a great synergy between prog/preg, much more than with dhea. At least it’s what I feel.

on the physical side, not much more weight/muscle, but I look “fuller”, harder. I was already very fit to begin, so unless I take high AAS doses, I don’t think it would have me any more effects.

 

[Spartan300]

Thanks, great to hear. I'm 54 so we may have plenty in common.
I've always been physically active and have lifted weights since I was around 20 but have been struggling during and since the last 5 years which have been very stressful.

Dhea always seems detrimental for me but my dhea-s when tested was above ref range.

I'll add in the preg tonight and see what happens.

 

[Mossy]

Yes, I feel that about 150mg preg + 10mg prog (progestogel cream) + 10mg dhea is about the same as a TRT for me. I’m 54, and my morning woods are the same now (or even better!) as when I was 16.
But it can possibly be different for anyone else. You have to try. Begin with 50mg preg only. I feel effects are anxiolytic for myself , so I used to take 100mg preg before sleep first, but you can take it also on mornings.
There’s a great synergy between prog/preg, much more than with dhea. At least it’s what I feel.

on the physical side, not much more weight/muscle, but I look “fuller”, harder. I was already very fit to begin, so unless I take high AAS doses, I don’t think it would have me any more effects.

Thanks for sharing. It sounds like you use the prog topically. Would this be the same for the preg and dhea?

 

[Yucca]

I just use prog gel, widely available here in France.
I take preg either with micronized powder (from china) or 50mg caps (biovea brand, or life extension in the past)
Dhea is also with caps.
I don’t claim it’s the best way, but at least it works for me. Maybe topical preg cream would be better, but powder is dirty cheap, so I can make some tries with high doses...

 

[Mossy]

I just use prog gel, widely available here in France.
I take preg either with micronized powder (from china) or 50mg caps (biovea brand, or life extension in the past)
Dhea is also with caps.
I don’t claim it’s the best way, but at least it works for me. Maybe topical preg cream would be better, but powder is dirty cheap, so I can make some tries with high doses...

Thanks for the additional detail. Considering you say this combination is similar to TRT for you, maybe it’s not a bad thing to be limited to topical prog, and oral preg and dhea. I will try this combo when I get a chance.

 

[dand]

Yes, I can confirm this. A ratio of up to 3:1 (progesteroneHEA) seems to work best for non-athletes but for people doing heavy lifting even higher ratios seem to work even better. The bodybuilder I was referring to uses up to 11:1 ratio and says it fully replaces his T injections without any difference, and in fact does not seem to suppress him. He has not done blood tests yet, but will do them in August and will post the results here.
Progesterone's blocking of muscle catabolism actually exceeds that of testosterone as it is a better/stronger GR antagonist than T. However, progesterone is considered catabolic hormone in men similar to T3 which really baffles me because I have not seen such effects from either. Both may have such effects in very high doses but in doses under 300mg progesterone, when combined with DHEA, seems to be remarkably anti-catabolic. T3 also has anti-cortisol effects and in lower doses it actually leads to decrease in fat and increase in muscle, partially due to thyrodi increasing androgen synthesis (especially the 5-AR derived ones).
I think his regimen is 5mg DHEA + 50mg progesterone, taken 3 times daily. He says that this removes any bloat that he used to get with T and that this combo feels equivalent to about 75mg injected T daily.

Ohh gonna try this. Just randomly experimenting, I started to notice that the cortinon of 8:1 feels really good and even better when I add in more progesterone throughout the day. I suspect that the lower ratios aromatize in people easily than the studies show esp given the chronic stress on people's metabolisms these days or at least on mine :). Gonna play around with 50 mg of progesterone to 5mg of dhea. I did 20mg of progesterone to 2mg of dhea this morning and feeling quite happy n euphoric :)!!!