DHEA + Progesterone == Pro-anabolic, Testosterone-promoting?

Mossy

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Ray's recommendation is what I use daily and it definitely keeps my muscles strong without any lifting, minus throwing my toddler around. Libido was always pretty good before, but it definitely maintains a potency, best I can describe, with this regiment.
interesting. How long have you been on this routine? You take 100 mg of pregnenolone and 5 or 10 mg of DHEA? Do you take any breaks during the week or cycle with another pattern of on-off days?
 

Spartan300

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I'm starting to doubt that I will get the results I'd hoped for.
At the times when I have been able to exercise properly and build some muscle I have felt more androgenic. So far this programme has not done that.

I'm thinking of switching to a week of 100mg pregnenolone this week just to see how that feels.
 

Beastmode

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interesting. How long have you been on this routine? You take 100 mg of pregnenolone and 5 or 10 mg of DHEA? Do you take any breaks during the week or cycle with another pattern of on-off days?
Same routine everyday. I don't see them as something that needs to be cycled. Especially, in those doses. I definitely notice the difference, however, I mainly focus on the basic energy stuff that Peat explained so well on the latest Danny Roddy podcast primarily. My DHEA levels were near the bottom when tested.
 

Mossy

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I'm starting to doubt that I will get the results I'd hoped for.
At the times when I have been able to exercise properly and build some muscle I have felt more androgenic. So far this programme has not done that.

I'm thinking of switching to a week of 100mg pregnenolone this week just to see how that feels.

Same routine everyday. I don't see them as something that needs to be cycled. Especially, in those doses. I definitely notice the difference, however, I mainly focus on the basic energy stuff that Peat explained so well on the latest Danny Roddy podcast primarily. My DHEA levels were near the bottom when tested.
I may try pregnenolone, as well. I've never taken a 100mg dose, so maybe I'll start at 50mg. Also, for me, DHEA never makes me feel balanced. But, I will have to try it, because pregnenolone and progesterone tend to neuter me.
 

Spartan300

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I seem to feel fine with preg and prog generally but I notice that DHEA always makes me feel less androgenic.

My DHEA-S when tested was above ref range but I still don't really understand the implications of that
 

Beastmode

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I may try pregnenolone, as well. I've never taken a 100mg dose, so maybe I'll start at 50mg. Also, for me, DHEA never makes me feel balanced. But, I will have to try it, because pregnenolone and progesterone tend to neuter me.

DHEA orally at any dose doesn't feel good for me. Topically, I don't notice any negative effects. Might be worth an exploration.
 

Mossy

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I seem to feel fine with preg and prog generally but I notice that DHEA always makes me feel less androgenic.

My DHEA-S when tested was above ref range but I still don't really understand the implications of that
My last DHEA-S test was on the low end of normal. So, maybe we’ll be at opposite spectrums, with regard to what works for each of us.
 

Mossy

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DHEA orally at any dose doesn't feel good for me. Topically, I don't notice any negative effects. Might be worth an exploration.
Oh, I had assumed you took both orally. Do you take preg orally or topically?
 

Spartan300

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Part of my experiment here was that in spite of high T, high DHT, and above ref range DHEA-s my ability to tolerate exercise and build muscle is poor.

I can only assume that these hormones are weak in relation to cortisol and estrogen? Grateful for any understanding or suggestions
 

Beastmode

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Oh, I had assumed you took both orally. Do you take preg orally or topically?
Pregnenolone is oral. I experimented with the pansterone (dhea-pregnenolone mix) in 2016 topically. It worked well, but I didn't feel comfy using a DMSO longterm.

I tend to feel the DHEA faster than the pregnenolone, but that makes sense since one is topical and the other is oral.
 

Mossy

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Pregnenolone is oral. I experimented with the pansterone (dhea-pregnenolone mix) in 2016 topically. It worked well, but I didn't feel comfy using a DMSO longterm.

I tend to feel the DHEA faster than the pregnenolone, but that makes sense since one is topical and the other is oral.
Good to know. I think I’ll test both methods.
 

Spartan300

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Week 16 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156lb 16.6% bf

I have been a little more careful with my diet this week as I'd grown tired of the pudgy guy in the mirror. However, I threw in a workout 4 days ago & it felt ok at the time but it tanked my libido & I have been tired with achy joints for the next 3 days. Woke today with morning wood, first time since the workout.

Might be time to be honest with myself - if progesterone was going to result in the claims made at the beginning of the thread I'd be feeling it and I'm not. As someone who has lifted weights for decades I know what it feels like to be androgenic & this isn't it.

I used to feel better for exercising, now it only makes me feel worse. Although I have not properly left it alone for more than around 3 weeks, I have been taking it easy working out for about 3 years. Would love to hear from anyone who has been in the same situation & managed to turn it around.
 

TripleOG

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Week 16 Update:

Start - 152lb 16.2% bf
Now - 156lb 16.6% bf

I have been a little more careful with my diet this week as I'd grown tired of the pudgy guy in the mirror. However, I threw in a workout 4 days ago & it felt ok at the time but it tanked my libido & I have been tired with achy joints for the next 3 days. Woke today with morning wood, first time since the workout.

Might be time to be honest with myself - if progesterone was going to result in the claims made at the beginning of the thread I'd be feeling it and I'm not. As someone who has lifted weights for decades I know what it feels like to be androgenic & this isn't it.
Have you tried navel application of Pansterone + Androsterone in a 1:1 ratio? I've read more testimonials of androgenic sensation from that combo than Prog+DHEA.
I used to feel better for exercising, now it only makes me feel worse. Although I have not properly left it alone for more than around 3 weeks, I have been taking it easy working out for about 3 years. Would love to hear from anyone who has been in the same situation & managed to turn it around.
With regard to exercise tolerance, molecular hydrogen has turned back the clock for me the most.
 

Spartan300

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@TripleOG - I have tried Pansterone & Androsterone and not seen much in the way of results but not navel application. Something I'll try.

My exercise tolerance absolutely tanked after a particularly stressful period in my life combined with some overtraining. The molecular hydrogen has me interested. First time I've seen it mentioned. What has it done for you?
 

tankasnowgod

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I'm not sure what my expectations were but so far this experiment, at least as far as body recomposition is concerned, has been nothing like the 'this could rival supplementing testosterone' suggestions at the beginning of the thread.

Have you supplemented testosterone in the past?

As time has gone on, I have noticed biceps just getting fuller and bigger. Not anything really big for fat loss in my case, but it certainly has had some solid (and noticeable) recomp benefits. With zero weight training..

I was given some testosterone by a doctor years ago (in a cream), and noticed some bad vision changes within a week. I stopped, tried again, the same thing happened. No real benefits. But it was a really short trial. Maybe it was some weird ester, maybe it was something in the cream, I don't know. Nothing like that has happened to me in the now 6 months or so of supplementation of Prog +DHEA.

Although, of note, I certainly didn't hit the "20 pounds of added muscle" I speculated about earlier. At least in my experientce, OTC Prog +DHEA is far superior to the testosterone you can get from the average doctor. But again....... lots of potential variables there. Some, notably, that could work in the Prog/DHEA favor, potentially.
 

Spartan300

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@tankasnowgod Glad to hear you have gotten some results - what doses are you using?

I've not supplemented testosterone in the past but I've seen what it can do in a others who have. I guess I hoped that if Prog/DHEA was able to do what was suggested then it might improve my exercise capacity.

Also @TripleOG do you use the H2 tablets?
 

tankasnowgod

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@tankasnowgod Glad to hear you have gotten some results - what doses are you using?

I've not supplemented testosterone in the past but I've seen what it can do in a others who have. I guess I hoped that if Prog/DHEA was able to do what was suggested then it might improve my exercise capacity.

I've been trying to mimic what Haidut said his bodybuilder friend used, so it's higher..... about 120mg a day Prog, with 10mg DHEA, divided into two doses. At that dose, I have certainly noticed the "Anti-Catabolic Effects." I've been taking it orally, because I can be really consistent doing it that way. I did notice similar effects when doing it topically at maybe 1/4 the amount, but I was very inconsistent that way.

Testosterone may indeed have similar (or even better) effects (especially if it's base T), but for me, OTC Prog+DHEA had far superior effects to whatever was in that Test Cream. Yeah, it might be a higher dose, but the $ cost over time is far lower with what I am doing now. Oh, and with no weird vision side effects. Not any side effects that I noticed at all.

Two things I would do, were I in your shoes..... first, track calories and see if you're eating enough. If you want to gain mass, you simply need to eat more (a problem I wish I had). You might see great results at the dose you're using simply by eating more. Second, if you know those with positive experiences with Testosterone, track them down and ask how much they were taking per day. Remember, Haidut's bodybuilder friend said 150mg Prog with 15mg DHEA a day was equal to 75mg Testosterone a day. If you were taking 20mg Prog and comparing it to a friend who took, say, 40mg Test, well, that would in no way stack up based on the original comparison.
 

TripleOG

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My exercise tolerance absolutely tanked after a particularly stressful period in my life combined with some overtraining. The molecular hydrogen has me interested. First time I've seen it mentioned. What has it done for you?
Regarding weight training, it restored my intensity and dramatically reduced fatigue during and post-exercise. The lactate buildup that used to floor me normalized.

It's been discussed sporadically:
2020.06.10 : Jodellefit : Dr Ray Peat Q&A - Weight Loss, Stretch Marks, Hydrogen, Negative Ions (Peat interview. Ctrl + f "hydrogen" to jump to where he's asked.)


Also @TripleOG do you use the H2 tablets?
I have a generator for breathing and saturating water.

Start out with tablets. Cheapest way to see if hydrogen does anything for you. DrinkHRW is a trusted brand.
 

Spartan300

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@tankasnowgod I'm going back too long to check with the guys I used to train with but appreciate the T vs Prog/DHEA comparison ratios would be relevant.

I've been able to gain weight doing this but my calorie sources might need to be cleaner. With sugar being ok in the Peat world it tricks (my mind at least) into thinking that chocolate/cakes etc are ok. I may have gained a little muscle but most of the weight I gained since starting this seems to be belly fat. When I've felt at my best in years gone by I have felt enthusiastic about working out & even better for doing it. Also what I ate seemed to matter far less. Feeling anabolic under those conditions I slept great & could feel my clothes getting tighter in the right places & I felt more vigorous. Now the complete opposite is the case.

My dosages have been 20mg prog twice a day. My perception is that I've felt more androgenic when I've not used DHEA with it.
 

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