Male Waist-to-Hip Ratio - what is optimal?? How to measure?? Can we influence bones for the better??

[YourUniverse]

@Herbie - interesting take. First of all, I *am* worried about my hormone levels. Second, I did wonder if it might be / might also be due to narrow rib cage (also a female / feminine trait) as you alluded to with the rib cage exercises.

But both with you and with @YourUniverse , I think we're talking over each other regarding terminology.

You are right when you say "It's ideal for men to have a narrow pelvis because this creates stronger structural integrity for lifting and throwing. All of this visually stimulates our primitive sexual arousal." And this is exactly why I am saying I don't like my hips, and wondering if bones can be influenced in adulthood.

But if you look again, the first guy who you say only teenage girls would like has a very slim pelvis - the muscles above it that add extra width are not the pelvis, they are above the pelvis itself. It is specifically because his pelvis bone is narrow that makes those muscles look even more pronounced, giving the V lines down to the crotch area.

When I say waist - I strictly mean the narrowest point in the space between where your rib cage stops and where your pelvis starts.

And when I say hips / pelvis - I strictly mean the part around your pelvis bone, but before the glutes.

Like this:

View attachment 51285

Men's pelvis bones should be as narrow as the waist (or close to). Like this:

View attachment 51286
I've deliberately chosen a more gruff, less "pretty-boy" example, rather than the guy in the OP so Herbie doesn't get annoyed

Or this (deliberately chosen a slim / skinny person who still has favorable skeleton shape, to show that muscle size has little to do with this phenomena, it is BONES):

View attachment 51287

And on the statue of David - hard to "measure" precisely due to his off-centre pose (note the prominent V lines, yes his right hip is further out, but this is because of his off-centre pose):

View attachment 51288

Men should NOT have waist-to-hip ratios like this:

View attachment 51289View attachment 51290View attachment 51291

The above three men with the red lines drawn (Ryan Gosling, the tatooed guy, and myself) obviously do not have hips like the women below. However, they are wider than optimal. Clearly estrogenic structures.

Which was why I asked - can bone structure be changed in adulthood if (and that's a BIG if) we can fix our hormonal profiles to be more androgenic and reduce prolactin, estrogen and inflammatory blood markers?

I don't want to look like a feminized man, with un-masculine bone structure.

As Herbie said, women's pelvis bones are ideally wider than the waist. Like this:

View attachment 51292View attachment 51293

The first woman clearly has a much bigger butt and a very slim waist, which is highly attractive. But the second woman also has a wonderful shape. The outer obvious features (butt and breasts) are less pronounced in the second woman, but she still has a wonderful feminine bone structure.

Any women reading this might get upset that their bodies don't look like one of the above two. Honestly, for me, I am certainly can be attracted to women that have excess body-fat and no longer have the shape where the waist is slim and the hips are wider. But this is because, like I said in my OP, measurements when overweight are NOT a fair assessment of bone structure and hip size to waist size. You cannot get an accurate measurement of the body mass excluding fat mass of the waist relative to the hip bone if you are overweight - the extra fat will bias the results. This is also why I have used men with low body fat in all of my examples - it's not necessarily because the low body fat is attractive or not (although, usually it is), it is because you can only truly see the difference in bone structures and the ratio between the thinnest part of the waist and the hips when the man is relatively lean.

I'd wager that most men would be more attracted to the skeletons of both the above two women than this woman below:

View attachment 51294

I understand your terminology, the difference between the waist or hips/pelvis. I think if these portions of the skeleton can be altered in any way, especially via hormones, I think professional bodybuilders would have found a way to do so by now. Thus, at risk of talking over you once more, and I mean no disrespect, I think Mr. Cutler's approach to be the one to follow, if aesthetics are the goal (and they appear to be the point of the thread).

 

[BigShoes]

I understand your terminology, the difference between the waist or hips/pelvis. I think if these portions of the skeleton can be altered in any way, especially via hormones, I think professional bodybuilders would have found a way to do so by now. Thus, at risk of talking over you once more, and I mean no disrespect, I think Mr. Cutler's approach to be the one to follow, if aesthetics are the goal (and they appear to be the point of the thread).

Thanks for this. Ah great, so I'm screwed.

I would actually say that Jay Cutler is not an example of hips wider than the waist. He has a wide waist as you mentioned (which, as you say, he worked to compensate for by adding a lot of additional mass to the lats and width to his shoulders), but his hip bones are actually mostly in-line with his waist, if not a bit slimmer:

Having a wide waist (or a slim waist) is not the problem, having pelvis bones wider than the waist is the estrogenic / feminine characteristic that I think is a problem. Like so:

Herbie and Jonk raise good points that it could be to do with the rib cage too. But it's probably one and the same - large rib cage coupled with narrow pelvis is masculine, small rib cage with wider pelvis is feminine / unmasculine.

And I think this is down to hormone balance. Estrogen and prolactin excesses have ruined my skeleton, and many other things, that make my appearance relatively unattractive to the opposite sex.

I guess the question I should be asking is: how do we reliably and consistently tank estrogen and prolactin?

I have heard many things such as: take thyroid / improve thyroid function to clear estrogen, reduce endotoxin (carrot salad, charcoal), avoid PUFA ... none of it is working for me.

 

[YourUniverse]

Thanks for this. Ah great, so I'm screwed.

I would actually say that Jay Cutler is not an example of hips wider than the waist. He has a wide waist as you mentioned (which, as you say, he worked to compensate for by adding a lot of additional mass to the lats and width to his shoulders), but his hip bones are actually mostly in-line with his waist, if not a bit slimmer:

View attachment 51297View attachment 51298

View attachment 51299View attachment 51300

Having a wide waist (or a slim waist) is not the problem, having pelvis bones wider than the waist is the estrogenic / feminine characteristic that I think is a problem. Like so:

View attachment 51301

Herbie and Jonk raise good points that it could be to do with the rib cage too. But it's probably one and the same - large rib cage coupled with narrow pelvis is masculine, small rib cage with wider pelvis is feminine / unmasculine.

And I think this is down to hormone balance. Estrogen and prolactin excesses have ruined my skeleton, and many other things, that make my appearance relatively unattractive to the opposite sex.

I guess the question I should be asking is: how do we reliably and consistently tank estrogen and prolactin?

I have heard many things such as: take thyroid / improve thyroid function to clear estrogen, reduce endotoxin (carrot salad, charcoal), avoid PUFA ... none of it is working for me.

Maybe your hips are not too wide, but your waist is too narrow. Youre too lean!

 

[Andrea Lucia]

I do not like the width of my pelvis.

I have noticed that masculine men, men with body types that attract women, have narrow hips. Or at least, a narrow pelvis bone that is somewhat in-line with the base of the rib cage. I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable.

Women often talk about "V lines" on a man being very attractive. I assert that these are not formed by "oblique crunches" or some such exercise, but are a direct result of having a very slim pelvis relative to the surrounding musculature, and in-line with the bottom of the rib-cage (or close to).

Examples:
View attachment 51258
This man above will steal everyone's girlfriend. Forgetting about face for a sec ... obviously, the shoulders are considerably wider than the waist and hips, but also notice that the pelvis is far inside the waist muscles. The pelvis is narrow, and the muscles are sitting above the inguinal ligament - this is what creates those V lines that women like. It is not necessarily the muscles themselves that are the cause, it is also the shape of the skeleton. This man would still be attractive to women without the muscles - some women might even prefer him a bit less built, provided the skeleton was the same.




View attachment 51259
This man has a very wide pelvis relative to his waist. Despite getting in very good shape, and having broad shoulders / developed musculature, his hip bones are far wider than his waist and the base of his rib cage. I believe this is an unattractive trait in males. This man is unlikely to steal anyone's girlfriend.

I have noticed in myself that no matter how muscular, or how lean I get, I still do not like my body. I have only just realized today that this is mostly to do with my hips / pelvis. Men often talk about shoulder-to-waist ratio, in which I believe mine is okay (when built up) - I have 'relatively' wide lats and shoulders, which create a nice hexagon shape - but my waist to hip ratio is ugly and almost feminine ... or certainly un-masculine. I have noticed that in almost every photo shoot I ever did, I was almost always photographed side-on ... I think I subconsciously did this because I subconsciously knew that my hips would look wide when straight on, but also the photographer chose to use the side-on photos for any outputs too.




View attachment 51261View attachment 51267View attachment 51262View attachment 51266View attachment 51260

The above photos are all of me at various times, with varying professional quality ... I believe my hips are somewhere in between the first guy (optimal) and the second guy (sub-optimal), leaning more towards the second guy.

Guy 1 - his armpit line is considerably wider than his pelvis. Or rather, his pelvis is considerably narrower than his armpit line (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 2 - the outside of his pelvis bones are virtually in-line with his armpit lines (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 3 (me) - pelvis bones are inside the armpit line *just*, but there is a noticeable widening between the slimmest part of my waist and the hip bones ... this is unattractive.

Measuring

Measuring waist-to-hip ratio can be a nightmare, for the following reasons:
(1) if you are overweight, your measurements will be biased and unreliable in terms of reflecting bone structure.
(2) the location in which people measure their waist, and in which they measure their hips, is different. Additionally,

I would say that measuring waist is easiest :- measure the narrowest point below your rib cage but above your pelvis bone. This usually equates to circa the navel, or possible a couple of inches above.

However, when measuring hips, I think it's best to measure on the top of the pelvis bone but above the glute muscles - so basically an upper pelvis measurement.

What should an optimal "ratio" be? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

More importantly, can the skeleton be changed for the better beyond puberty?

Obviously, the shape of the skeleton is primarily going to be determined by hormonal profile. A masculine skeletal structure will be from ->
- High Testosterone, High DHT, High Androgens
- Low Estrogen, Low Prolactin, Low Stress Hormones (Cortisol, baseline adrenalin).

I would venture to guess that the first guy I linked has the above hormonal characteristics. And that the second guy has at least one of either estrogen, prolactin or stress hormones significantly elevated, and possibly low androgens too (not to "soy" levels, but lower than optimal).

Unsurprisingly, my hormonal profile shows moderate testosterone levels, but relatively elevated estrogen and prolactin. Last measurements:
- Total testosterone 666 ng/dL (devil d*ck ... I wish) | 23.1 nmol/L
- Estradiol 33.5 pg/ml | 123 pmol/L
- Prolactin 15.56 ng/ml | 330 mU/L

I also have significant thyroid autoimmunity with very high TPO and Thyroglobulin antibodies.

And perhaps even more unsurprisingly, my most bothersome symptoms are:
- hair loss beginning on my crown
- sexual dysfunction (severe premature ejaculation and unreliable libido)
- low energy levels, low vigour, general malaise, exhaustion

Other severe symptoms that I am less focused on (not necessarily because they are less bothersome, but because I don't think there is much to be done about them):
- vitiligo (felt somewhat dead inside every day since diagnosis c. 13 years ago lol) - linked with autimmunity.
- mild gyno (it's not that bad, but nipples poking through t shirts is not great) - obviously linked to estrogen and prolactin.

Questions

Hypothetically, if I were successful in tanking my estrogen and prolactin levels to an "optimal" male profile, lowering my stress hormones, improving my thyroid function, and improving androgen profile - would it ever be possible for my skeleton / body to "adjust" towards a more androgenic structure closer to the first guy's? Or are we doomed past (or even prior to) puberty (i.e. once you're grown, you're grown)?

And more importantly: if possible, how to get there? Somehow, I doubt progesterone is the answer...

Am I off base? Is it actually that the first guy has a wider rib cage to match the hips?

As a semi pro woman body builder, I feel I could be a good judge. Your hips are so muscular (quite nice i might add) leaving the appearance of a small back. You may want to stop focusing on your hips and put your attention on your back. You need more thickness and of course you need more width so you should be holding your bars at a wide grip. Other than that, you look amazing! Symmetry is my strength. I work one side at at time to get equal reps no matter how bad it hurt. But if your in this group, you may already know to keep your thyroid running optimally. Don't damage your body.

 

[singuluscorpora]

Interesting thread, @BigShoes

I have similar body type to you - pretty lean, relatively wide shoulders, average hips circumference (for the height) but very (aesthetically) annoying waist that is too small compared to the hips.

I would second the suggestion of @YourUniverse that if there are exercises to thicken the waist and thus equalize the waist and the hips.
Now, here comes the hardest part - I don’t have any suggestions on this front, and I’m looking forward for what will come up in this thread.

 

[BigShoes]

Interesting thread, @BigShoes

I have similar body type to you - pretty lean, relatively wide shoulders, average hips circumference (for the height) but very (aesthetically) annoying waist that is too small compared to the hips.

I would second the suggestion of @YourUniverse that if there are exercises to thicken the waist and thus equalize the waist and the hips.
Now, here comes the hardest part - I don’t have any suggestions on this front, and I’m looking forward for what will come up in this thread.

Hey man.

Unfortunately, I think any work on the musculature itself will *at best* only make the problem less obvious / slightly mask it - I think the problem is our bone structure.

I'd say that if you are looking for a way to attack things from a muscular standpoint, it would be:

(1) Arnold's rib cage expansion work (e.g. breathing squats and breathing dumbbell pullovers) and Reeves deadlifts (as talked about above). This *MAY* help to widen the rib cage, which will by extension give you a wider lower rib cage / waist area. However, personally, I am not convinced that this is truly possible. Masculine, high-T low-E males have a large rib cage naturally (relative to the pelvis). I don't think this can be faked through exercises.

(2) Get your Lats and Shoulders as massive as you can so that the shoulder-to-waist and shoulder-to-hip ratio was so large that, at least you had the shoulder ratios going for you.

(3) Work really hard on the Obliques - the muscles' function is to flex the trunk anteriorly (forward, like a crunch) or laterally to the side - traditionally, this could be done with bicycle crunches and oblique "side" crunches, but the muscles will also be targeted through correct core bracing.

External obliques are these highlighted muscles here:

However, like I say - I strongly believe that this is not a muscle imbalance issue - it is a BONES issue, that is being driven by HORMONES. I don't think that any amount of side-lying crunches is going to mask the fact that my hip bones are wider than my waist.

This man on the left could steal your (and everyone's) girlfriend. Whereas this man on the right (me) is unattractive, despite being in "good shape".

Look closely at the difference between my hips and his. Below his oblique muscles on the left, there is basically nothing there - this is because the hip bones, the pelvis itself, is NARROW. This creates the V-lines that women love. Look closely at my obliques on the right in black & white, and look at what is below them (yes I know my pecs are uneven lol, that's not the problem here) ... Below them is a WIDER pelvis, that is branching out from the oblique.

No amount of oblique crunches is going to change that fact - it could possibly be masked by widening the rib cage. But like I said above, a narrow rib cage is another feminine trait - it's driven by hormones. It is the *skeleton*, not the muscles. I don't think muscle work will have a meaningful impact.

Women should have pelvises wider than the waist. Men should NOT have pelvises (much) wider than the waist.

Males presenting with this trait are not masculine (I am included in that).

I would wager that males with this waist to hip issue are more likely to have a tonne of other health problems as they age, like the ones I am currently experiencing.

What an absolute nightmare.

But once again, I think it comes back to the questions:
(1) How do we meaningfully reduce our estrogen, prolactin, stress hormones etc. *and* actually keep them there?
(2) If we are successful in meaningfully changing our hormonal profile for the long term. Is our body actually able to re-masculinize / de-feminize itself? Will our skeletons slowly re-model over time to a more masculine profile?

 

[BigShoes]

As a semi pro woman body builder, I feel I could be a good judge. Your hips are so muscular (quite nice i might add) leaving the appearance of a small back. You may want to stop focusing on your hips and put your attention on your back. You need more thickness and of course you need more width so you should be holding your bars at a wide grip. Other than that, you look amazing! Symmetry is my strength. I work one side at at time to get equal reps no matter how bad it hurt. But if your in this group, you may already know to keep your thyroid running optimally. Don't damage your body.

Hi Andrea,

You look incredible. And thanks for the tips.

But (and I know I am beating a dead horse here), I still truly believe that it is a bone issue (and ultimately a hormonal issue), not a muscle issue. Check those two torsos above, the bone structure difference is staggering.

 

[LastingJoy]

@BigShoes
Hello, I know many men with similar or better bodies than the man on the left, and they don't steal any girlfriends, I think you're hugely overestimating the impact of a body like the man on the left in terms of self-confidence, and in terms of seducing women, Confidence doesn't come from looking in the mirror and having a body of similar proportions to that of the man on the left (many of the least confident men I know are those with a gym bro body), I know men who look like they have zero muscle and who attract a lot of women, I know men who have a body similar or better than that of the man on the left and who don't attract many women.

In my experience, yes, your body and bone structure can change depending on your lifestyle and diet, even as an adult.

 

[BigShoes]

@BigShoes Hi, i know many men with similar or better body that the man on the left, and they dont steal any one girlfriend, i do think you are hugely overrating the impact of having a body like the man on the left in term of confidence, and in term of seducing women, confidence do not come by looking at the mirror and having a body in similar ratios than the man of left( many of the less secure and confident men i know are the ones with a gym body), i know men that looks like they have 0 muscles and have a lot women attracted to them, i know men with a similar or better body than the man on the left and dont attract many women.

in my experience, yes, your body and bone structure can change depending on your life styles factors and diet even at adult age.

Hi Lasting Joy. Thanks for this.

Firstly, the man on the left is just an example. It is not about him per se. And the girlfriend stealing is hyperbole / a joke to demonstrate my point.

I have used a vast array of other photos in previous comments to demonstrate the phenomena I am explaining - on skinny profiles, statues, hyper-muscular profiles, toned profiles etc.

I even stated in my very first post that "I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable." Androgenic men with low estrogenic blueprint can still be very slim with less muscle - just like the diver picture in post #15 that I linked - and still be attractive to women. This has nothing to do with muscles or muscle size, it is SKELETON, derived by hormonal expression.

Second of all, whilst I appreciate your words of encouragement, I don't think they match up with reality, and are just brushing aside my point.

I don't mean to be contentious here, and I do truly appreciate you and your kindness, but:

I have tried to highlight yet another trait in men that is becoming more and more common (wide hips, mild gynecomastia / breast growth, poor beard growth, higher pitched voices) and highlight it as the problem that it is, whilst also trying to figure out a way we can fix our hormonal profile for the better, and hopefully change ourselves. But your comment says 'just be more confident in yourself and learn to be suave'.

Flip side, I think it would be disingenuous to tell a woman with severe hirsutism (hairy face / chest) that she just needs to be more confident and stop worrying about it - she clearly has a problem, and needs help with that problem - not be told that her personality is the reason why men aren't approaching her.

 

[LastingJoy]

Hi Lasting Joy. Thanks for this.

Firstly, the man on the left is just an example. It is not about him per se. And the girlfriend stealing is hyperbole / a joke to demonstrate my point.

I have used a vast array of other photos in previous comments to demonstrate the phenomena I am explaining - on skinny profiles, statues, hyper-muscular profiles, toned profiles etc.

I even stated in my very first post that "I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable." Androgenic men with low estrogenic blueprint can still be very slim with less muscle - just like the diver picture in post #15 that I linked - and still be attractive to women. This has nothing to do with muscles or muscle size, it is SKELETON, derived by hormonal expression.

i have not been specific,i know men with the kind of bone structure you are talking about, that are not attracting many women, i said "muscles" i was talking about body overall including bone structure and muscle, i understood your point.

Second of all, whilst I appreciate your words of encouragement, I don't think they match up with reality, and are just brushing aside my point.

I don't mean to be contentious here, and I do truly appreciate you and your kindness, but:

I have tried to highlight yet another trait in men that is becoming more and more common (wide hips, mild gynecomastia / breast growth, poor beard growth, higher pitched voices) and highlight it as the problem that it is, whilst also trying to figure out a way we can fix our hormonal profile for the better, and hopefully change ourselves. But your comment says 'just be more confident in yourself and learn to be suave'.

my comment didnt imply that you can increase your confidence by choosing it, it has little to nothing to do with choice in my experience, it has everything to do with life style factors and diet, wich body building in it self has a very minimal impact in my experience, it can even have a negative impact as i have seen some men enter a vicious circle of stress from the body building, wich ended making them feel more insecure even tho they had develop their body.

Flip side, I think it would be disingenuous to tell a woman with severe hirsutism (hairy face / chest) that she just needs to be more confident and stop worrying about it - she clearly has a problem, and needs help with that problem - not be told that her personality is the reason why men aren't approaching her.

i did not imply that, i was specifically talking about the fact that in my experience, this single factor, the bone structure that you deem ideal, does not grant confidence neither women success in it self;

if in your experience the bone structure you have is associated with other suboptimal characteristics, i suggest you are right to want to change it to see if it improve many of these things.

 

[Cooper]

I do not like the width of my pelvis.

I have noticed that masculine men, men with body types that attract women, have narrow hips. Or at least, a narrow pelvis bone that is somewhat in-line with the base of the rib cage. I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable.

Women often talk about "V lines" on a man being very attractive. I assert that these are not formed by "oblique crunches" or some such exercise, but are a direct result of having a very slim pelvis relative to the surrounding musculature, and in-line with the bottom of the rib-cage (or close to).

Examples:
View attachment 51258
This man above will steal everyone's girlfriend. Forgetting about face for a sec ... obviously, the shoulders are considerably wider than the waist and hips, but also notice that the pelvis is far inside the waist muscles. The pelvis is narrow, and the muscles are sitting above the inguinal ligament - this is what creates those V lines that women like. It is not necessarily the muscles themselves that are the cause, it is also the shape of the skeleton. This man would still be attractive to women without the muscles - some women might even prefer him a bit less built, provided the skeleton was the same.




View attachment 51259
This man has a very wide pelvis relative to his waist. Despite getting in very good shape, and having broad shoulders / developed musculature, his hip bones are far wider than his waist and the base of his rib cage. I believe this is an unattractive trait in males. This man is unlikely to steal anyone's girlfriend.

I have noticed in myself that no matter how muscular, or how lean I get, I still do not like my body. I have only just realized today that this is mostly to do with my hips / pelvis. Men often talk about shoulder-to-waist ratio, in which I believe mine is okay (when built up) - I have 'relatively' wide lats and shoulders, which create a nice hexagon shape - but my waist to hip ratio is ugly and almost feminine ... or certainly un-masculine. I have noticed that in almost every photo shoot I ever did, I was almost always photographed side-on ... I think I subconsciously did this because I subconsciously knew that my hips would look wide when straight on, but also the photographer chose to use the side-on photos for any outputs too.




View attachment 51261View attachment 51267View attachment 51262View attachment 51266View attachment 51260

The above photos are all of me at various times, with varying professional quality ... I believe my hips are somewhere in between the first guy (optimal) and the second guy (sub-optimal), leaning more towards the second guy.

Guy 1 - his armpit line is considerably wider than his pelvis. Or rather, his pelvis is considerably narrower than his armpit line (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 2 - the outside of his pelvis bones are virtually in-line with his armpit lines (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 3 (me) - pelvis bones are inside the armpit line *just*, but there is a noticeable widening between the slimmest part of my waist and the hip bones ... this is unattractive.

Measuring

Measuring waist-to-hip ratio can be a nightmare, for the following reasons:
(1) if you are overweight, your measurements will be biased and unreliable in terms of reflecting bone structure.
(2) the location in which people measure their waist, and in which they measure their hips, is different. Additionally,

I would say that measuring waist is easiest :- measure the narrowest point below your rib cage but above your pelvis bone. This usually equates to circa the navel, or possible a couple of inches above.

However, when measuring hips, I think it's best to measure on the top of the pelvis bone but above the glute muscles - so basically an upper pelvis measurement.

What should an optimal "ratio" be? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

More importantly, can the skeleton be changed for the better beyond puberty?

Obviously, the shape of the skeleton is primarily going to be determined by hormonal profile. A masculine skeletal structure will be from ->
- High Testosterone, High DHT, High Androgens
- Low Estrogen, Low Prolactin, Low Stress Hormones (Cortisol, baseline adrenalin).

I would venture to guess that the first guy I linked has the above hormonal characteristics. And that the second guy has at least one of either estrogen, prolactin or stress hormones significantly elevated, and possibly low androgens too (not to "soy" levels, but lower than optimal).

Unsurprisingly, my hormonal profile shows moderate testosterone levels, but relatively elevated estrogen and prolactin. Last measurements:
- Total testosterone 666 ng/dL (devil d*ck ... I wish) | 23.1 nmol/L
- Estradiol 33.5 pg/ml | 123 pmol/L
- Prolactin 15.56 ng/ml | 330 mU/L

I also have significant thyroid autoimmunity with very high TPO and Thyroglobulin antibodies.

And perhaps even more unsurprisingly, my most bothersome symptoms are:
- hair loss beginning on my crown
- sexual dysfunction (severe premature ejaculation and unreliable libido)
- low energy levels, low vigour, general malaise, exhaustion

Other severe symptoms that I am less focused on (not necessarily because they are less bothersome, but because I don't think there is much to be done about them):
- vitiligo (felt somewhat dead inside every day since diagnosis c. 13 years ago lol) - linked with autimmunity.
- mild gyno (it's not that bad, but nipples poking through t shirts is not great) - obviously linked to estrogen and prolactin.

Questions

Hypothetically, if I were successful in tanking my estrogen and prolactin levels to an "optimal" male profile, lowering my stress hormones, improving my thyroid function, and improving androgen profile - would it ever be possible for my skeleton / body to "adjust" towards a more androgenic structure closer to the first guy's? Or are we doomed past (or even prior to) puberty (i.e. once you're grown, you're grown)?

And more importantly: if possible, how to get there? Somehow, I doubt progesterone is the answer...

Am I off base? Is it actually that the first guy has a wider rib cage to match the hips?

You are ruining your life. Stop trying to be perfect and obsessing over your body. There are people who live without legs.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

Flip side, I think it would be disingenuous to tell a woman with severe hirsutism (hairy face / chest) that she just needs to be more confident and stop worrying about it

I don't think severe hirsutism in women is at all comparable to wide male hips etc., even considering the rather large male/female asymmetry in sexual selection.
Ostensibly the point of this thread is to explore skeletal modification through hormonal manipulation, but practically it seems more about body dysmorphia and attracting women, and in that sense raising the issue of confidence and mindset seems at least partially appropriate.

 

[BigShoes]

I don't think severe hirsutism in women is at all comparable to wide male hips etc., even considering the rather large male/female asymmetry in sexual selection.
Ostensibly the point of this thread is to explore skeletal modification through hormonal manipulation, but practically it seems more about body dysmorphia and attracting women, and in that sense raising the issue of confidence and mindset seems at least partially appropriate.

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Hirsutism is a masculine trait in a woman.

A male with wide hips is a feminine trait in men.

Both traits are generally unattractive to the opposite sex.

To gloss over such issues and reduce them to a matter of confidence is distinctly unpalatable to me.

It is true that a negative self image does no favors to anyone. However, marginalizing the issue / pretending that a problem does not exist, or that it's all in the person's head, or that the person has body dysmorphia, is verging on gas-lighting.

How about I switch 'wide male hips' with gynecomastia (male breast growth)? Would that be comparable to hirsutism?

It would be criminal to tell this man below that he just needs to work on his confidence, or that he has body dysmorphia, if he is unsatisfied with his appearance:

That is sadly a common sign in males these days. However, it is certainly NOT normal. This would never have happened in men 50-60 years ago pre- plastics, pre- birth control, pre- onslaught of toxic chemicals in our environment. To say that he is 'fine just the way he is' and that he needs to work on his confidence is unhelpful at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Men with wide hips, gynecomastia, low-to-no beard growth etc. are becoming more and more common - and it is a problem with hormones and the toxic environment. Whilst you may consider any one of those individual symptoms as benign / not a big deal - it usually IS a big deal to the man, and is typically an indicator that something is seriously wrong, and is a risk factor for other more serious conditions later: infertility, prostate cancer, mental disorders (from elevated estrogen and reduced testosterone), all manner of other cancers.

Just like hirsutism. It is a cosmetic issue in itself. That does not mean that it is not a serious problem. Firstly, the symptom itself makes a woman less attractive to the opposite sex, but even past that, it is often found alongside a bunch of other more serious hormonal health issues such as PCOS. To ignore hirsutism as a mere "cosmetic issue" and telling the woman to just be more confident, or to smile at men more / be more inviting, is once again unhelpful at best, and disingenuous at worst.

To bring things back:
(1) How to tank estrogen and prolactin successfully? Thyroid hormone use, PUFA restriction (9 years and counting), aspirin use, semen retention, vitamin D supplementation, calcium consumption etc. etc. have not made a meaningful dent for me at all.

(2) If, hypothetically, a man were able to improve his hormonal profile (i.e. tank estrogen and prolactin, and boost testosterone) would this be likely to reverse any negative impacts the man was experiencing from the estrogenic profile? e.g. wide hips / skeleton changes, gynecomastia reversal, hair loss, reduced testicle size, fertility and sperm count, sexual function etc. etc.

 

[BigShoes]

You are ruining your life. Stop trying to be perfect and obsessing over your body. There are people who live without legs.

From someone who has been commenting about micro-plastics destroying our environment, I am surprised by this response. It is microplastic pollution and other chemical pollution acting as xeno-estrogens to the human body that is the direct cause of the male and female becoming more androgynous:
- Men: breast growth, androgynous hips, weaker men with smaller bones, no beard growth.
- Women: smaller breast size, hirsutism, androgynous hips, cellulite, spider veins etc.

Once again, whilst these are cosmetic issues, they go hand in hand with the following:

- Men: being unattractive to the opposite sex, male infertility, increased cancer risk, increased depression / mental issues, prostate cancer specifically, poor sexual function, hair loss, low energy / lethargy
- Women: PCOS, endometriosis, inability to conceive / infertile, venous insufficiency, breast cancers

The list goes on.

If we cannot face the truth in ourselves, we will NEVER solve these problems.

If we follow the instinct of denying that there is a problem, to save our own feelings and egos, then we will continue down this path further and further.

I'd argue that we are already pretty far along. Just recently, Georgi revealed a statistic on the Strong Sistas channel that 50% (that's 1 in 2!!) couples in America struggle with conceiving a child. And that is the ones that even got that far to be thinking about pro-creating. Most men these days would not even be selected by women for such an honour - because we have been feminized by toxic products in the environment.

To tell me I have body dysmorphia and that I am ruining my life is frankly disgusting.

It is the plastics, the birth control in the water supply, the cosmetic ingredients, the EMF, the omega 6 vegetable oils, the grain consumption, the GMO etc. etc. that has ruined our collective health, and thus our society at large.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

It would be criminal to tell this man below that he just needs to work on his confidence

We are clearly talking past each other, so more directly: the provocation is you may need confidence, since your body is quite clearly miles away from the unfortunate gynecomastia and hirsutism images in your post. There is no equivalence, which is obvious to just about everyone who views the thread. Anyway, best of luck to you.

 

[Snarf]

You are ruining your life. Stop trying to be perfect and obsessing over your body. There are people who live without legs.

Your need to take your own advice bro, Ive seen you obsessing over you junk on multiple forums.

 

[YourUniverse]

As a semi pro woman body builder, I feel I could be a good judge. Your hips are so muscular (quite nice i might add) leaving the appearance of a small back. You may want to stop focusing on your hips and put your attention on your back. You need more thickness and of course you need more width so you should be holding your bars at a wide grip. Other than that, you look amazing! Symmetry is my strength. I work one side at at time to get equal reps no matter how bad it hurt. But if your in this group, you may already know to keep your thyroid running optimally. Don't damage your body.

Incredible. Were you able to keep your thyroid happy, and sleep well, while building that body? Any tips?

 

[jordybrunson89]

you're really not that bad, ive seen worse. anyway, you should thicken your waist with deadlifts and core exercises. work out your obliques as well and expand your ribcage with pullovers. that way you can increase the width of your upper body and have it in-line with your lower body.

at the end of the day though, you're obsessing over something that you'll eventually have to accept and learn to be happy regardless.

improve it as much as you can but also develop a stronger mind to shut down these unhelpful/stressful thoughts when they come up, they're doing more damage than whatever your pelvis is

 

[Bluemachine]

I do not like the width of my pelvis.

I have noticed that masculine men, men with body types that attract women, have narrow hips. Or at least, a narrow pelvis bone that is somewhat in-line with the base of the rib cage. I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable.

Women often talk about "V lines" on a man being very attractive. I assert that these are not formed by "oblique crunches" or some such exercise, but are a direct result of having a very slim pelvis relative to the surrounding musculature, and in-line with the bottom of the rib-cage (or close to).

Examples:
View attachment 51258
This man above will steal everyone's girlfriend. Forgetting about face for a sec ... obviously, the shoulders are considerably wider than the waist and hips, but also notice that the pelvis is far inside the waist muscles. The pelvis is narrow, and the muscles are sitting above the inguinal ligament - this is what creates those V lines that women like. It is not necessarily the muscles themselves that are the cause, it is also the shape of the skeleton. This man would still be attractive to women without the muscles - some women might even prefer him a bit less built, provided the skeleton was the same.




View attachment 51259
This man has a very wide pelvis relative to his waist. Despite getting in very good shape, and having broad shoulders / developed musculature, his hip bones are far wider than his waist and the base of his rib cage. I believe this is an unattractive trait in males. This man is unlikely to steal anyone's girlfriend.

I have noticed in myself that no matter how muscular, or how lean I get, I still do not like my body. I have only just realized today that this is mostly to do with my hips / pelvis. Men often talk about shoulder-to-waist ratio, in which I believe mine is okay (when built up) - I have 'relatively' wide lats and shoulders, which create a nice hexagon shape - but my waist to hip ratio is ugly and almost feminine ... or certainly un-masculine. I have noticed that in almost every photo shoot I ever did, I was almost always photographed side-on ... I think I subconsciously did this because I subconsciously knew that my hips would look wide when straight on, but also the photographer chose to use the side-on photos for any outputs too.




View attachment 51261View attachment 51267View attachment 51262View attachment 51266View attachment 51260

The above photos are all of me at various times, with varying professional quality ... I believe my hips are somewhere in between the first guy (optimal) and the second guy (sub-optimal), leaning more towards the second guy.

Guy 1 - his armpit line is considerably wider than his pelvis. Or rather, his pelvis is considerably narrower than his armpit line (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 2 - the outside of his pelvis bones are virtually in-line with his armpit lines (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 3 (me) - pelvis bones are inside the armpit line *just*, but there is a noticeable widening between the slimmest part of my waist and the hip bones ... this is unattractive.

Measuring

Measuring waist-to-hip ratio can be a nightmare, for the following reasons:
(1) if you are overweight, your measurements will be biased and unreliable in terms of reflecting bone structure.
(2) the location in which people measure their waist, and in which they measure their hips, is different. Additionally,

I would say that measuring waist is easiest :- measure the narrowest point below your rib cage but above your pelvis bone. This usually equates to circa the navel, or possible a couple of inches above.

However, when measuring hips, I think it's best to measure on the top of the pelvis bone but above the glute muscles - so basically an upper pelvis measurement.

What should an optimal "ratio" be? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

More importantly, can the skeleton be changed for the better beyond puberty?

Obviously, the shape of the skeleton is primarily going to be determined by hormonal profile. A masculine skeletal structure will be from ->
- High Testosterone, High DHT, High Androgens
- Low Estrogen, Low Prolactin, Low Stress Hormones (Cortisol, baseline adrenalin).

I would venture to guess that the first guy I linked has the above hormonal characteristics. And that the second guy has at least one of either estrogen, prolactin or stress hormones significantly elevated, and possibly low androgens too (not to "soy" levels, but lower than optimal).

Unsurprisingly, my hormonal profile shows moderate testosterone levels, but relatively elevated estrogen and prolactin. Last measurements:
- Total testosterone 666 ng/dL (devil d*ck ... I wish) | 23.1 nmol/L
- Estradiol 33.5 pg/ml | 123 pmol/L
- Prolactin 15.56 ng/ml | 330 mU/L

I also have significant thyroid autoimmunity with very high TPO and Thyroglobulin antibodies.

And perhaps even more unsurprisingly, my most bothersome symptoms are:
- hair loss beginning on my crown
- sexual dysfunction (severe premature ejaculation and unreliable libido)
- low energy levels, low vigour, general malaise, exhaustion

Other severe symptoms that I am less focused on (not necessarily because they are less bothersome, but because I don't think there is much to be done about them):
- vitiligo (felt somewhat dead inside every day since diagnosis c. 13 years ago lol) - linked with autimmunity.
- mild gyno (it's not that bad, but nipples poking through t shirts is not great) - obviously linked to estrogen and prolactin.

Questions

Hypothetically, if I were successful in tanking my estrogen and prolactin levels to an "optimal" male profile, lowering my stress hormones, improving my thyroid function, and improving androgen profile - would it ever be possible for my skeleton / body to "adjust" towards a more androgenic structure closer to the first guy's? Or are we doomed past (or even prior to) puberty (i.e. once you're grown, you're grown)?

And more importantly: if possible, how to get there? Somehow, I doubt progesterone is the answer...

Am I off base? Is it actually that the first guy has a wider rib cage to match the hips?

I had noticed this in myself (something feminine looking in the lower region) and disliked it before understanding what was going on (not that I do now) but let me give you another something to think think about and try.. it maybe as much if not more, the “posture” or position of the bones that creates this looks rather than their specific dimensions.. try standing in-front of a mirror and tilting your pelvis forward

like the image on the left the lower core becomes more compact and straight, whereas the skeleton with anterior pelvic tilt’s core sort of lengthens and widens in the hip. You can also affect the appearance of your jawline by (if you have forward head posture which id guess you do slightly as when the posture gets disturbed it seems to show throughout the whole body) lean back slightly so the neck is going straight up instead forward and then aligning the head with the neck coming off at a ninety degree angle. Quite hard to explain but play around with it. I still think you might be right about the causes of the issue that you’ve listed in this thread and the way to go about fixing it and maybe it’s a case of good bones - good posture but I’d be more hopeful about the prospect of changing the position of your bones than the shape.

 

[Andrea Lucia]

Incredible. Were you able to keep your thyroid happy, and sleep well, while building that body? Any tips?

I was 40 years of age in those photos. Of course, I had thyroid issues, but back then I was prescribed Levothyroxin which ended up being very unhelpful. Here I am age 62 soon to be 63 and was on my death bed at 61. It was my son who introduced me to Dr Ray Peat's work, so NOW a year plus I am the healthiest I have ever been, but I am taking both T3&T4 cynomel & cynoplus along with Georgi's products, Pregnenalone, Progest-e and much more. I can now help others who are much younger stay healthy as they build their muscle.