Estrogen Is NOT Needed For Muscle / Bone Growth And Anabolism

[TheBeard]

Why is it that tren enhances libido while being a progestin?
Progesterone is famous for lowering libido

 

[Yggr]

Hi dude. I've been lurking your posts for awhile but nobody asked what I needed from this thread so I created an account specifically to talk to you. Why does tren suppress your testosterone if 1. we established that estrogen is responsible for negative feedback to the hypothalamus, and thus we use an AI as part of PCT, 2. Tren is non-aromatizable, non-estrogenic, highly androgenic and thus suppresses estrogen, and has progestogenic effects (I don't know if it acts like a 'progestin' poison like medroxyprogesterone acetate... but it may very well be the case since people DO complain of 19-nor (tren) **** and gyno from elevated prolactin, which is an estrogenic effect, not progesteronic) 3. progesterone is anti-estrogenic, and so tren's PR activation suggests that it shouldn't be subject to prolactin effects, so you shouldn't even need to run a dopamine agonist like cabergoline with it 4. in another thread you stated the following:

"The estrogen role in gonadal atrophy caused by T is suggested by one of the studies showing that while "lower" doses T (in the range of HED 1mg/kg daily) were suppressible and caused gonadal atrophy, VERY high doses (equivalent to 1g+ daily in humans) increased gonadal size. .... It will also be recalled that small doses of testosterone cause a testis atrophy which is not seen at high dose levels (1 1). This fact could best be explained by the assumption that comparatively low doses of testoids inhibit the gonadotropic hormone secretion of the pituitary and thus cause a secondary testis involution which, in the case of high doses, is over-compensated by the direct testis-stimulating effect of these compounds."

The only explanation I can think of that reconciles some of this is that testosterone / AR activation ALSO feeds back to the hypothalamus. Otherwise past a certain threshold of AR activation estrogen would become totally suppressed forever and the release of androgens would become a positive feedback loop. "VERY high doses increased gonadal size"... so if it turns out that the progesteronic effect of tren is actually progesteronic and not estrogenic, why doesn't blasting tren give you massive balls? Even if there is some estrogenic effect from tren (there must be if there's gyno and tren ****) then doesn't the same logic apply - just run it in a high enough dose and the androgenicity will beat the estrogenicity into submission?

How many people run tren alone? I'd wager pitifully few. The anecdotes of these effects are probably caused by all the other stuff bodybuilders are on. Since I'm sure you'd agree this lore comes from there.

 

[TheBeard]

Thanks for the comments. I think the issues with libido and joints from AI depend heavily on the AI used. The *zoles like the one used in this study seem to be the worst. Lower dose exemestane (5mg-6mg) which seems to achieve about 60% reduction in estrogen levels (both E1 and E2) has not been associated with such complaints. Maybe it is due to the fact that exemestane metabolizes into 6-methylene-boldenone and boldenone has been shown to improve joint health and libido even in people taking AI. The non-steroidal *zoles have no such side benefit.
And yes, definitely not recommending using R1881 or any other 17-alpha-methylated steroid. Among the most hepatotoxic chemicals. Second worst are the 7-alpha methylated ones (trestolone, mibolerone, etc), third-worst are the 2-oxa (oxandrolone), and perhaps the least dangerous (but still worthy of caution) are the 1-alpha and 2-alpha methylated ones (Proviron, drostanolone). For the record, even Proviron has reports of liver toxicity, leaving drostanolone as probably the only synthetic, FDA-approved, AAS without known liver toxicity. The studies on breast cancer with drostanolone back in the 1960s used 50mg-100mg daily with no serious side effects, which is still a huge dose considering the steroid is just 2a-methyl-DHT. So, in more acceptable doses similar to the ones for Proviron (10mg-20mg daily) it should be relatively safe.

But Trenbolone and Trestolone aren't methylated in their raw pure powder form that can be made in an injectable or a transdermal, correct?
Only for the oral pills that need the first-pass liver?

 

[SonOfEurope]

How is your total T? High estrogen may give you good libido but that does not mean it is the optimal way to do it. High T with E2 in the bottom 25% also gives people great libido. This is the phenotype 20yo males have, together with higher progesterone.
High dose Masteron (drostanolone) is notorious for turning people into sexually berserk rhinos yet it crushes E2 (and E1) below detectable levels. In fact, about 20% of the people on whom drostanolone was tested back in the 1960s dropped out of the trials due to excessive libido. They could just not do anything except think about sex 24x7.
So, libido is probably not the best metric of estrogen's healthiness, and there are arguably healthier ways to achieve it. According to the study above even bone health can be perfectly maintained by non-aromatizable steroids like DHT or trenbolone, even when adding an AI.
Estrogen is THE primordial growth hormone. Growth, as in uncontrolled, de-differentiating type. The bad kind, the kind that kills if left unchecked for too long. I don't think estrogen should be crushed, but most people probably produce and carry around way more than what they need for optimal health. Increased peripheral aromatization is one of the earliest biomarkers of aging/disease.
Just my 2c.

Exactly,

Crushing it totally is bad no doubt, In my personal experience, I feel better now with E2 around 18-21 in everything from physique and cardio resistance to sleep quality and thought clarity... My T last check was 574... It's a bit tanked from the progesterone and it might be the p4+low dose DHEA that are giving me the benefits but... even if I do some Testosterone this spring I'll never let e2 go above 50... I believe that in minimal amounts,and in different tissues we do need the interaction of E2 with DHT for some Secondary male sexual characteristics but in very low amounts.

 

[Momado965]

Would stoping trenbolone be sufficient for t levels to revert back to normal since trenbolone does not cause supression in a sene of testicle atrophy or must pregnenolone be used to restore t levels?

 

[Momado965]

Since trenbolone "eats up your lipids" as bodybuilders say. I theorise cholesterol powder and a high sugar diet will be helpful to maintain "lipids" and also maintain testosterone which otherwise will go down to non existant levels. What are your thought peatarian thinkers?

 

[SonOfEurope]

This is less than 2cents but..

My thought is that as long as I have my 20mg progesterone and 2-3mg DHEA plus all proper nutrition and caffeine, theanine and aspirin with K2 I would not touch trenbolone.

In one year I've gone from 166lb to 188lb at 15%... And if next summer after dropping to 12% I reach 200lbs I'll be more than content... My whole body has gotten bigger in 2 years of progesterone and dhea.. Face is wider, more beard, my wrist went up in girth as my neck, before peat I could wear a 20 inch chain comfortable now it's a choker... Shoulders are much bigger and back wider.


So I am more than satisfied and I wouldn't risk it with trenbolone but to each their own.

 

[Momado965]

This is less than 2cents but..

My thought is that as long as I have my 20mg progesterone and 2-3mg DHEA plus all proper nutrition and caffeine, theanine and aspirin with K2 I would not touch trenbolone.

In one year I've gone from 166lb to 188lb at 15%... And if next summer after dropping to 12% I reach 200lbs I'll be more than content... My whole body has gotten bigger in 2 years of progesterone and dhea.. Face is wider, more beard, my wrist went up in girth as my neck, before peat I could wear a 20 inch chain comfortable now it's a choker... Shoulders are much bigger and back wider.


So I am more than satisfied and I wouldn't risk it with trenbolone but to each their own.

Cool thing. What was your doses? Anyhow I still wanna use trenbolone with minimal side effects and this why I asked.

 

[Momado965]

Reply deleted

 

[Yggr]

I suppose you're going to have to experiment yourself and monitor your bloods and see what happens.

 

[SonOfEurope]

Cool thing. What was your doses? Anyhow I still wanna use trenbolone with minimal side effects and this why I asked.

I understand,

Progesterone = Around 14mg morning and 14mg before sleep for the last 2 years (only a small break of 18 days. ) it was protest e and progestene.

DHEA = 2 mg a day (approx, dropper is hard to read) for the last 6 months.

Muscle gain is natural.. I'd say of those 20lbs maybe 8-10 have been muscle, more impressive is the increase in bone mass (wrists, shoulder to shoulder wider and thicker neck )... I was rather a small boned guy until 25-26, not anymore.

Maybe because I started young... I'm 28 years old soon 29.

K2 and elimination of PUFAS definitely had something to do with bone anabolism - better thyroid.

 

[golder]

Cool thing. What was your doses? Anyhow I still wanna use trenbolone with minimal side effects and this why I asked.

Would be really interested to hear I’d you managed to find a sensible/sustainable tren dosage? Thanks :)

 

[Broken man]

I got serious low E symptoms from taking large amounts of aspirin, zinc, and olive leaf extract for several months at the start of last year. By April I had come to find that I had the worst anhedonia and cracking joints of my life. Every morning, weak or no morning wood, and brutal bone pain for the first hour of waking up. I cut way back on the olive leaf extract (a strong aromatase inhibitor) and took a long break from zinc (foolishly was not taking with copper, was misguided by copper-phobia at the time), started taking copper, and started limiting aspirin to only when I needed pain relief; then slowly things started to improve over the course of 8 months. Addition of Boron is what got me back to feeling fine. Boron can raise both estrogen and testosterone.. well I am quite thankful for this because now I have my libido back. I think in men and women libido in general comes from an ideal pairing of Estradiol and Testoserone. It is pretty clear that for women typically they have the most libido around ovulation and this also happens to be when E2 is greatly higher, T spikes here as well but to a lesser degree. I also find it intriguing from the reading I have done that the T/E2 relationship shares many similarities with the Zinc/Copper relationship.

Sorry if this has already been referenced here, but I find this study to be pretty revealing:
NEJM - Error

Do you have bloodtest?

 

[Broken man]

That

When your body senses external DHEA or Pregnenolone, it will suppress gonads activity to some degree as it no longer requires endogenous production.

No matter how you look at it, exogenous hormones suppress you, whether upstream or downstream.

is only when you have huge amounts in your bloodstream.

 

[Gûs80]

My 2 cents...

Dr Ben Lynch, in Dirty Genes, demonstrates that two common polymorphisms alter the way a person processes estrogen, dopamine, serotonin, and norepinephrine.

Slow Comt and Slow MAOa are poor metabolizers and tend to accumulate estrogen, dopamine, serotonin and norepinephrine.

I believe they are the ones that do well with low estrogen, as E2 has been proven to inhibit MAOa, causing: anxiety, bipolarity, schizophrenia.

Fast Comt and Fast MAOa are those that metabolize stogen, NE, DP, SE very fast.

I believe that they are precisely those who benefit from TRT and consequently from the decrease in MAOa by aromatized E2. They are those who are more prone to depression and feel that TRT acts as an anti-depressant.

 

[golder]

Has anyone found a low dose use of Trenbolone benfificial? On paper I can’t really see many downsides if used in low doses?