Male Waist-to-Hip Ratio - what is optimal?? How to measure?? Can we influence bones for the better??

[BigShoes]

I do not like the width of my pelvis.

I have noticed that masculine men, men with body types that attract women, have narrow hips. Or at least, a narrow pelvis bone that is somewhat in-line with the base of the rib cage. I have noticed that muscle mass and body fat percentage can be *highly* variable and women can still be very attracted to the man's figure, provided his bone structure and skeleton are suitable.

Women often talk about "V lines" on a man being very attractive. I assert that these are not formed by "oblique crunches" or some such exercise, but are a direct result of having a very slim pelvis relative to the surrounding musculature, and in-line with the bottom of the rib-cage (or close to).

Examples:

This man above will steal everyone's girlfriend. Forgetting about face for a sec ... obviously, the shoulders are considerably wider than the waist and hips, but also notice that the pelvis is far inside the waist muscles. The pelvis is narrow, and the muscles are sitting above the inguinal ligament - this is what creates those V lines that women like. It is not necessarily the muscles themselves that are the cause, it is also the shape of the skeleton. This man would still be attractive to women without the muscles - some women might even prefer him a bit less built, provided the skeleton was the same.

This man has a very wide pelvis relative to his waist. Despite getting in very good shape, and having broad shoulders / developed musculature, his hip bones are far wider than his waist and the base of his rib cage. I believe this is an unattractive trait in males. This man is unlikely to steal anyone's girlfriend.

I have noticed in myself that no matter how muscular, or how lean I get, I still do not like my body. I have only just realized today that this is mostly to do with my hips / pelvis. Men often talk about shoulder-to-waist ratio, in which I believe mine is okay (when built up) - I have 'relatively' wide lats and shoulders, which create a nice hexagon shape - but my waist to hip ratio is ugly and almost feminine ... or certainly un-masculine. I have noticed that in almost every photo shoot I ever did, I was almost always photographed side-on ... I think I subconsciously did this because I subconsciously knew that my hips would look wide when straight on, but also the photographer chose to use the side-on photos for any outputs too.

The above photos are all of me at various times, with varying professional quality ... I believe my hips are somewhere in between the first guy (optimal) and the second guy (sub-optimal), leaning more towards the second guy.

Guy 1 - his armpit line is considerably wider than his pelvis. Or rather, his pelvis is considerably narrower than his armpit line (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 2 - the outside of his pelvis bones are virtually in-line with his armpit lines (drawing a vertical line down)
Guy 3 (me) - pelvis bones are inside the armpit line *just*, but there is a noticeable widening between the slimmest part of my waist and the hip bones ... this is unattractive.

Measuring

Measuring waist-to-hip ratio can be a nightmare, for the following reasons:
(1) if you are overweight, your measurements will be biased and unreliable in terms of reflecting bone structure.
(2) the location in which people measure their waist, and in which they measure their hips, is different. Additionally,

I would say that measuring waist is easiest :- measure the narrowest point below your rib cage but above your pelvis bone. This usually equates to circa the navel, or possible a couple of inches above.

However, when measuring hips, I think it's best to measure on the top of the pelvis bone but above the glute muscles - so basically an upper pelvis measurement.

What should an optimal "ratio" be? I haven't seen this discussed anywhere.

More importantly, can the skeleton be changed for the better beyond puberty?

Obviously, the shape of the skeleton is primarily going to be determined by hormonal profile. A masculine skeletal structure will be from ->
- High Testosterone, High DHT, High Androgens
- Low Estrogen, Low Prolactin, Low Stress Hormones (Cortisol, baseline adrenalin).

I would venture to guess that the first guy I linked has the above hormonal characteristics. And that the second guy has at least one of either estrogen, prolactin or stress hormones significantly elevated, and possibly low androgens too (not to "soy" levels, but lower than optimal).

Unsurprisingly, my hormonal profile shows moderate testosterone levels, but relatively elevated estrogen and prolactin. Last measurements:
- Total testosterone 666 ng/dL (devil d*ck ... I wish) | 23.1 nmol/L
- Estradiol 33.5 pg/ml | 123 pmol/L
- Prolactin 15.56 ng/ml | 330 mU/L

I also have significant thyroid autoimmunity with very high TPO and Thyroglobulin antibodies.

And perhaps even more unsurprisingly, my most bothersome symptoms are:
- hair loss beginning on my crown
- sexual dysfunction (severe premature ejaculation and unreliable libido)
- low energy levels, low vigour, general malaise, exhaustion

Other severe symptoms that I am less focused on (not necessarily because they are less bothersome, but because I don't think there is much to be done about them):
- vitiligo (felt somewhat dead inside every day since diagnosis c. 13 years ago lol) - linked with autimmunity.
- mild gyno (it's not that bad, but nipples poking through t shirts is not great) - obviously linked to estrogen and prolactin.

Questions

Hypothetically, if I were successful in tanking my estrogen and prolactin levels to an "optimal" male profile, lowering my stress hormones, improving my thyroid function, and improving androgen profile - would it ever be possible for my skeleton / body to "adjust" towards a more androgenic structure closer to the first guy's? Or are we doomed past (or even prior to) puberty (i.e. once you're grown, you're grown)?

And more importantly: if possible, how to get there? Somehow, I doubt progesterone is the answer...

Am I off base? Is it actually that the first guy has a wider rib cage to match the hips?

 

[youngsinatra]

You look amazing, mate. No need to worry about your looks!

 

[WombOfFuturity]

For whatever it's worth, and what women are said to prefer notwithstanding, shapes like these strike me as far more robust and aesthetically pleasing than the first image with the exaggerated V:

Spoiler: statuary pictures

 

[BigShoes]

For whatever it's worth, and what women are said to prefer notwithstanding, shapes like these strike me as far more robust and aesthetically pleasing than the first image with the exaggerated V:

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I think you're viewing the "V" as the shape made between the shoulders and the waist. But I mean the "V-lines" at the top of the hip pointing towards the crotch made by the lower oblique, inguinal ligament and pelvis bone.

Not this 'V' in red -> But this 'V' / these V lines in green ->

If you look at the most narrow point of the waist in all the statues you posted, this is virtually in-line with the hip bone below the lower oblique muscle. Or sometimes the pelvis bone is even inside the line (see the green line below): ->

This is exactly the same trait that the first guy has, and not the trait that the second guy or I have:

The first guy has the bone structure of the statues, but a bit more built up top. Whereas myself and the other guy do not. I believe this is due to hormonal profile. And I'm wondering if improving the hormonal profile for the better might actually be able to change the skeleton for the better.

Some might think this is a stupid thing to worry about, but not really... body shape is dictated by hormones, and gives off signals about our reproductive fitness to the opposite sex. No, I'm not planning on anything drastic like some kind of pelvis surgery hahaha - but I was wondering if the skeleton could be positively influenced even in adulthood...

p.s. @youngsinatra - I really appreciate that ! If only I believed it / if only the ladies believed it too hahaha.

 

[WombOfFuturity]

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I think you're viewing the "V" as the shape made between the shoulders and the waist. But I mean the "V-lines" at the top of the hip

True, I should have phrased my post differently. I mean to say broad shoulders + broad waist is better than broad shoulders + narrow waist, and I should think vastly more decisive in overall perception than the waist : hip ratio or whatever the hip V line situation happens to be.

If you look at the most narrow point of the waist in all the statues you posted, this is virtually in-line with the hip bone below the lower oblique muscle.

Still I think the 3rd image demonstrates a waist slightly narrower than hips, and could even be a bit narrower without much effect.

I have noticed in myself that no matter how muscular, or how lean I get, I still do not like my body.

Forgive me, and I understand if you don't respond here since this is a departure from the framing in your OP, but this mindset may be easier to change than the shape of your pelvis. Is there some reason you need to maintain such low body fat?

 

[liam183]

Dude, you have the optimal balance lol. All about genetics + hormone balance during development. Can't do anything about your hips, but you can change your waist to an extent. The first look with the "Adonis belt" style waist looks bad imo. Should focus less on oblique+abdominal training and more on stomach vacuums and fat loss. The other one looks like someone with no abdominal development, potentially high estrogen during puberty, but above all, poor genetics.
As for other bone structure things, I've seen anecdotal evidence that ribcage expansion is possible via cartilage stretching exercises like breathing pullovers. Shoulders can potentially be expanded via wide grip dead hangs and Reeves deadlifts

 

[BigShoes]

True, I should have phrased my post differently. I mean to say broad shoulders + broad waist is better than broad shoulders + narrow waist, and I should think vastly more decisive in overall perception than the waist : hip ratio or whatever the hip V line situation happens to be.


Still I think the 3rd image demonstrates a waist slightly narrower than hips, and could even be a bit narrower without much effect.


Forgive me, and I understand if you don't respond here since this is a departure from the framing in your OP, but this mindset may be easier to change than the shape of your pelvis. Is there some reason you need to maintain such low body fat?

I'd still say the third statue you posted has the same waist traits as the other statues, or at least, it is certainly not like mine or the tattooed guy's issue. The hip looks "outside" the waist in the third statue because the statue is leaning on to one leg so the hips aren't straight, and the pelvis is hiked to the side.

I'm actually not anywhere near as lean now as I was in those photos. I'm currently eating (figuratively) a metric tonne of food, along with thyroid supplementation, to try to get my body back into effective glucose oxidation rather than stressed metabolism / lipolysis. I am not well (as you'll see from my listed symptoms). And I'm sure that the dieting and the leanness played some role in that (although not entirely - I have had autoimmune conditions (vitiligo) since age 18 long before I started training / dieting).

I do not "need" to maintain low body fat. But (especially at that time) I was willing to do as much as I could possibly do in order to be strong, look good, and look attractive to the opposite sex (without doing something drastic like running a tren cycle / getting face transplant hahaha).

First, I got muscular, but not lean - I looked pretty bad / nothing special. Then I dieted down and retained (most of) the muscle I'd built because I thought "maybe a six pack would help". I looked okay from certain angles (as above), but still not great... and I wasn't sure why - shoulder width was okay, height is 6 2, relatively muscular but not silly ... so why did I still look bad, despite the well-built physique? And the reason is bones - or more specifically, my hips.

 

[YourUniverse]

Jay Cutler was a champion bodybuilder with a wider waist. In an interview, he said he put an emphasis on his lats to create the V taper. I dont think there's any way to make the waist smaller beyond burning excess body fat.

 

[BigShoes]

Dude, you have the optimal balance lol. All about genetics + hormone balance during development. Can't do anything about your hips, but you can change your waist to an extent. The first look with the "Adonis belt" style waist looks bad imo. Should focus less on oblique+abdominal training and more on stomach vacuums and fat loss. The other one looks like someone with no abdominal development, potentially high estrogen during puberty, but above all, poor genetics.
As for other bone structure things, I've seen anecdotal evidence that ribcage expansion is possible via cartilage stretching exercises like breathing pullovers. Shoulders can potentially be expanded via wide grip dead hangs and Reeves deadlifts

Hi Liam, thanks for this. Na the first guy is the girlfriend stealer, I am sub-optimal.

What makes you say that you cannot do anything about hips? My main question / query was (I know I wrote too much): if you were to hypothetically drastically improve our hormonal profile for the better (tank prolactin and estrogen, increase testosterone and DHT), would our body be able to express that new hormonal profile and create a more androgenic skeleton structure? Or is it more "once done, it cannot be undone" i.e. puberty is the only time for any significant changes to occur.

Reeves is the GOAT. And yes I had read a lot about rib cage expansion via pullovers from Arnold waaay back in the day but I didn't really give it much credence tbh. Still though, you do raise an interesting point - I don't know if the issue is just in the hips, or if it is actually that the rib cage is too small in both myself and the tattooed guy - probably some combination of the two.

Seeing as estrogen and progesterone (female-centered hormones for the most part) cause women's hips to widen at puberty, I'd say it's an estrogen problem in both myself and the tattooed guy. You'll see from my results above, my estrogen and prolactin where at least twice what it should be for a healthy androgenic male, and my testosterone of 666 is probably 134 below "optimal" (c. 800 seems like a good level).

I venture to guess that it has been caused by plastics and xeno-estrogens in my upbringing and in our environment:
- plastic food and drinks containers
- toiletries and soaps
- birth control hormones in the water supply
- toilet paper, paper towels
- low quality food and synthetic rubbish being pumped into the food supply.

What an absolute nightmare. We men (And women actually) have had our hormones assaulted from all angles. I'm doing my best to overcome things, and come out the other side both healthy and at least semi-attractive, but what a rubbish environment we are all in - we've had our birth-right taken away from us, and I'm furious... but also devastated.

 

[BigShoes]

Jay Cutler was a champion bodybuilder with a wider waist. In an interview, he said he put an emphasis on his lats to create the V taper. I dont think there's any way to make the waist smaller beyond burning excess body fat.

Jay Cutler was boss. But that's not really a fair comparison, he was literally a man-mountain, and not something I would want to become.

But yeh, it's not about getting a smaller waist or burning fat, it is literally about the hip bones relative to the waist / lower rib cage.

My hypothesis was that the wider hips are due to a less androgenic, more estrogenic profile. And I was wondering if we could hypothetically change our structure over time if (that's a BIG if) we fixed our hormonal profile. I.e.:

(1) tank prolactin
(2) tank estrogen (plus serotonin and cortisol whilst we are at it)
(3) boost testosterone and DHT

Obviously, bone changes would not happen overnight. But I wondered if the skeleton may slowly change for the better over time if I fixed my sub-optimal hormone levels.

 

[liam183]

Hi Liam, thanks for this. Na the first guy is the girlfriend stealer, I am sub-optimal.

What makes you say that you cannot do anything about hips? My main question / query was (I know I wrote too much): if you were to hypothetically drastically improve our hormonal profile for the better (tank prolactin and estrogen, increase testosterone and DHT), would our body be able to express that new hormonal profile and create a more androgenic skeleton structure? Or is it more "once done, it cannot be undone" i.e. puberty is the only time for any significant changes to occur.

Reeves is the GOAT. And yes I had read a lot about rib cage expansion via pullovers from Arnold waaay back in the day but I didn't really give it much credence tbh. Still though, you do raise an interesting point - I don't know if the issue is just in the hips, or if it is actually that the rib cage is too small in both myself and the tattooed guy - probably some combination of the two.

Seeing as estrogen and progesterone (female-centered hormones for the most part) cause women's hips to widen at puberty, I'd say it's an estrogen problem in both myself and the tattooed guy. You'll see from my results above, my estrogen and prolactin where at least twice what it should be for a healthy androgenic male, and my testosterone of 666 is probably 134 below "optimal" (c. 800 seems like a good level).

I venture to guess that it has been caused by plastics and xeno-estrogens in my upbringing and in our environment:
- plastic food and drinks containers
- toiletries and soaps
- birth control hormones in the water supply
- toilet paper, paper towels
- low quality food and synthetic rubbish being pumped into the food supply.

What an absolute nightmare. We men (And women actually) have had our hormones assaulted from all angles. I'm doing my best to overcome things, and come out the other side both healthy and at least semi-attractive, but what a rubbish environment we are all in - we've had our birth-right taken away from us, and I'm furious... but also devastated.

The only way you could modify bones after your growth plates fuse is surgically or through microfractures. Ribcage/shoulder expansion works because they both rely on cartilage rather than bone

 

[Herbie]

I went to the gym when I was 20 years old and trained seriously for about 4 years and did all the Arnold chest expanding stuff which no one does which made my rib cage expand and stayed this way. I haven't been to a gym for 8 years but I have a permanent barrel chest which none one in the photos has. If you expand the rib cage then everything on the shoulder girdle becomes wider which creates the more extreme chest to waist ratio. I never trained abs so I didn't get those weird obliques which make the pelvis look wider.

The wider pelvis is for women to birth a larger baby's head for higher intelligence.

It's ideal for men to have a narrow pelvis because this creates stronger structural integrity for lifting and throwing. All of this visually stimulates our primitive sexual arousal.

I don't know, maybe teenage girls would like the first bloke, If I could fit into his underwear, I'd be concerned about my hormonal levels.

 

[YourUniverse]

Jay Cutler was boss. But that's not really a fair comparison, he was literally a man-mountain, and not something I would want to become.

But yeh, it's not about getting a smaller waist or burning fat, it is literally about the hip bones relative to the waist / lower rib cage.

My hypothesis was that the wider hips are due to a less androgenic, more estrogenic profile. And I was wondering if we could hypothetically change our structure over time if (that's a BIG if) we fixed our hormonal profile. I.e.:

(1) tank prolactin
(2) tank estrogen (plus serotonin and cortisol whilst we are at it)
(3) boost testosterone and DHT

Obviously, bone changes would not happen overnight. But I wondered if the skeleton may slowly change for the better over time if I fixed my sub-optimal hormone levels.

Developing proportionally larger lats was his solution to the problem of a wider waist. I dont agree with your hypothesis that it's from more estrogen or something like that, if anything it might be from an upbringing involving labor (for some reason I remember Jay saying he grew up on a farm), or its just an inherited trait. I think wider hips make for a sturdier base, improving the levers that help pick something up from off the ground, a useful masculine ability id say

 

[Jonk]

I went to the gym when I was 20 years old and trained seriously for about 4 years and did all the Arnold chest expanding stuff which no one does which made my rib cage expand and stayed this way.

This was my first thought as well, trying to figure out how to naturally expand your chest/ribs.

I think one way to go about it is to think about the body as a levering system where there are more and less optimal ways of distributing force and pressure throughout the body. This is purely hypothetical and probably a slow process if anything, but trying to notice how elite athletes move and distribute weight through their joints etc. One concrete example that comes to mind is that we are often told to brace our core when squatting to protect our spine. What I imagine would be a more optimal movement (but riskier if done incorrectly?) is to find a deeper fascial tension and relationship where the abdominals are under tension but moreso lenghtening while descending in the squat. In the most general way I think a lot of us carry excessive tension in the front of our body, while a more athletic individual has more relaxed lenghtened abdominals and carry more tension through the glutes and pelvis. I would assume that carrying more postural tension would allow for a more barrel chested look.

 

[BigShoes]

@Herbie - interesting take. First of all, I *am* worried about my hormone levels. Second, I did wonder if it might be / might also be due to narrow rib cage (also a female / feminine trait) as you alluded to with the rib cage exercises.

But both with you and with @YourUniverse , I think we're talking over each other regarding terminology.

You are right when you say "It's ideal for men to have a narrow pelvis because this creates stronger structural integrity for lifting and throwing. All of this visually stimulates our primitive sexual arousal." And this is exactly why I am saying I don't like my hips, and wondering if bones can be influenced in adulthood.

But if you look again, the first guy who you say only teenage girls would like has a very slim pelvis - the muscles above it that add extra width are not the pelvis, they are above the pelvis itself. It is specifically because his pelvis bone is narrow that makes those muscles look even more pronounced, giving the V lines down to the crotch area.

When I say waist - I strictly mean the narrowest point in the space between where your rib cage stops and where your pelvis starts.

And when I say hips / pelvis - I strictly mean the part around your pelvis bone, but before the glutes.

Like this:

Men's pelvis bones should be as narrow as the waist (or close to). Like this:

I've deliberately chosen a more gruff, less "pretty-boy" example, rather than the guy in the OP so Herbie doesn't get annoyed

Or this (deliberately chosen a slim / skinny person who still has favorable skeleton shape, to show that muscle size has little to do with this phenomena, it is BONES):

And on the statue of David - hard to "measure" precisely due to his off-centre pose (note the prominent V lines, yes his right hip is further out, but this is because of his off-centre pose):

Men should NOT have waist-to-hip ratios like this:

The above three men with the red lines drawn (Ryan Gosling, the tatooed guy, and myself) obviously do not have hips like the women below. However, they are wider than optimal. Clearly estrogenic structures.

Which was why I asked - can bone structure be changed in adulthood if (and that's a BIG if) we can fix our hormonal profiles to be more androgenic and reduce prolactin, estrogen and inflammatory blood markers?

I don't want to look like a feminized man, with un-masculine bone structure.

As Herbie said, women's pelvis bones are ideally wider than the waist. Like this:

The first woman clearly has a much bigger butt and a very slim waist, which is highly attractive. But the second woman also has a wonderful shape. The outer obvious features (butt and breasts) are less pronounced in the second woman, but she still has a wonderful feminine bone structure.

Any women reading this might get upset that their bodies don't look like one of the above two. Honestly, for me, I am certainly can be attracted to women that have excess body-fat and no longer have the shape where the waist is slim and the hips are wider. But this is because, like I said in my OP, measurements when overweight are NOT a fair assessment of bone structure and hip size to waist size. You cannot get an accurate measurement of the body mass excluding fat mass of the waist relative to the hip bone if you are overweight - the extra fat will bias the results. This is also why I have used men with low body fat in all of my examples - it's not necessarily because the low body fat is attractive or not (although, usually it is), it is because you can only truly see the difference in bone structures and the ratio between the thinnest part of the waist and the hips when the man is relatively lean.

I'd wager that most men would be more attracted to the skeletons of both the above two women than this woman below:

 

[michael94]

You have a work of Arno Breker as your profile pic, I think you should know better than to worry about whatever ratio you are after.

You are in amazing shape.

 

[BigShoes]

To simplify, I think it comes down to:

- Testosterone turns boys into men
- Progesterone turns girls into women
- Estrogen feminizes males and makes them less manly and more girlie-men, and Estrogen (and progesterone deficiency) masculinizes women / makes them less feminine.

Our environment is such that we are all being bombarded with estrogen in so many forms. Women are less feminine, men are less masculine. This is apparent in both behaviours and all aspects of physical appearance - bone structure, muscle size, facial structure, fat distribution, soy-boys, aggressive career women.

You have a work of Arno Breker as your profile pic, I think you should know better than to worry about whatever ratio you are after.

You are in amazing shape.

Ha! You're out-ing me as a Hit**r Youth (I'm joking, I'm not).

Seriously though, did you mean that Arno Breker statues do not have this ratio, or did you mean something else? On closer look, it actually does seem that their hip-bones are wider than the narrowest part of the waist (e.g. google: the great torchbearer, or 'der sieger') but it's VERY slight. They also have very wide rib cages that make both the waist and the hip look relatively narrow. I appreciate your kind words, but I disagree about my shape. The muscle shape and "body fat" are fine, but I believe that the bone structure is feminized around the hips. I will never look good with hips like that.

Ryan Gosling (above) also has very good musculature and is sufficiently low body fat. By all rights he is in "good shape", relative to 90%+ of men. But his skeleton (especially the hip bones) make his figure less appealing. The slim diver (who is far less muscular) has a better shape every time - because of his skeleton.

@Jonk - interesting points (and same with @Herbie ) RE: the rib cage training. Thanks. I'll look into it.

For anyone interested, I also found this thread that didn't get many responses: What can cause the hip bones to be slightly wider as a male? Can your shoulders/hips/other bones still change in your 20s? I wonder if @Explorer or @copycat have any more updates?

Interestingly, @copycat (a de-transitioning MtF - please can everyone be polite / considerate in any replies) stated in that thread that the use of estrogen did widen their hips. Obviously only one anecdote, but it does coincide with my theory RE: estrogen and the hips in men.

I wonder if drastically reducing estrogen and prolactin could possibly influence the hips to narrow down over time, or if this is wishful thinking...

I guess the only way to go is to try and tank prolactin and estrogen and just say "what will be will be." but (A) I am struggling to do this, and (B) I don't think it's a good thing for us as men to ignore the decline in structure we are all experiencing... gynecomastia is common but not normal, wide hips are common but not normal, low-to-no beard growth is common but not normal - avoiding talking about these things or brushing it under the rug to spare our feelings is not helpful.

Our ego gets in the way of admitting the truth to ourselves. "Oh a little breast tissue is normal in males" "We can't all look like a movie star." "Lots of women prefer a clean shaven face." - all of which are ego-saving platitudes that gloss over the fact that we are being bombarded with estrogenic influences left, right and centre. If it wasn't for this ego-saving strategy en masse, I feel the general public would have been in uproar about things a long time ago. Plastics, xenoestrogens, birth control in the water supply, estrogenic compounds in foods - all of this would have stopped if man could put aside his ego and recognize that he is not as he should be.

 

[Herbie]

@Jonk @BigShoes

I had this book and followed it, there is a dedicated section just for rub cage expansion:

Arnold Schwarzenegger

The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding The Bible of Bodybuilding Fully Updated and Revised​

If you look at photos in his peak you can see his rib cage being wide and thick and even photos of him now, he still has it.

 

[BigShoes]

@Jonk @BigShoes

I had this book and followed it, there is a dedicated section just for rub cage expansion:

Arnold Schwarzenegger

The New Encyclopedia of Modern Bodybuilding The Bible of Bodybuilding Fully Updated and Revised​

If you look at photos in his peak you can see his rib cage being wide and thick and even photos of him now, he still has it.

Many thanks, Herbie! I will have a read and get training.

 

[BigShoes]

Extreme example = Klinefelters