Male Waist-to-Hip Ratio - what is optimal?? How to measure?? Can we influence bones for the better??

[Andrea Lucia]

Hi Andrea,

You look incredible. And thanks for the tips.

But (and I know I am beating a dead horse here), I still truly believe that it is a bone issue (and ultimately a hormonal issue), not a muscle issue. Check those two torsos above, the bone structure difference is staggering.

Hi Andrea,

You look incredible. And thanks for the tips.

But (and I know I am beating a dead horse here), I still truly believe that it is a bone issue (and ultimately a hormonal issue), not a muscle issue. Check those two torsos above, the bone structure difference is staggering.

I'm sorry, BigShoes, I honestly don't think your body looks feminine. I do see the chest is not symmetric. That would be something I would work more on. Your abs look ripped compare to the body on the left. The body on the left has fat around the top of his hips. If you want to change your bone structure, that would be quite the task. The only thing I learned from Dr Ray Peat about bones is vitamin K, proteins and calcium. The muscles are created to move the skeletal body and keep it in place. Other than that, I honestly think you need more thickness. Your lats go all the way down past your rib cage, so that is what needs to be widened and thickened.

 

[Cooper]

Your need to take your own advice bro, Ive seen you obsessing over you junk on multiple forums.

It's because i have a rare disease which traumatised me since i was 16. That obsessing also led to a suicide attempt once. So i know where i come from, that's why i commented that. Don't take this the other way. We are the victims of pharma industry.

 

[BigShoes]

It's because i have a rare disease which traumatised me since i was 16. That obsessing also led to a suicide attempt once. So i know where i come from, that's why i commented that. Don't take this the other way. We are the victims of pharma industry.

I'm very sad to hear about your disease. I have also been on the brink of suicide myself - ironically due to my health issues, and desperately wanting to live. Unfortunately, I fear I am beyond fixing.

Still, I don't believe the "accept ourselves as we are" mentality is particularly helpful.

It is a coping mechanism for ourselves, sure, and I agree that self-loathing and self-hatred will not get us anywhere.

However, "accepting problems as they are" effectively leads to ignoring the problem, and letting it persist far longer than it should, or just NEVER solving it.

I believe that, globally, we as men would have put a stop to the onslaught of estrogenic things I have described above (e.g. plastics, xeno-estrogens, cosmetic chemicals, birth control in the water supply, GMO etc. etc. etc.) a LONG time ago if we were able to look at ourselves honestly, and admit the problems that we see.

It hurts to realize that we are not the men we could or should be. Our ego protects us from this truth by telling ourselves that "we are fine as we are".

This is not an attractive man to women:

If you take away the muscles that I had built up in my pictures, and added extra body fat - my body shape is more or less the same as the man above

Both the wikipedia man, and me, have a damaged hormonal profile. And we are not alone in that. Millions of men exhibit the same, and it is becoming more and more common.

Whereas, this IS an attractive man to women:

Whilst the man is very slim, and some women may prefer a bit more brawn, his skeletal proportions are indicative of a healthy endocrine balance - which is a rare thing these days. Some people are healthy IN SPITE OF the onslaught (e.g. high metabolic rate leading into increased ability of the liver to detox), but most, sadly, are not.

A significant proportion of men would rather re-define what it is to be masculine (the nu-male, sensitive male, male feminists, buzzfeed journalists) than face the painful truth that we are, collectively, in trouble.

If we cannot first face the problem, collectively, then we will never solve it.

 

[LastingJoy]

@BigShoes Hi, the second "attractive" man, we do not even see his face, in my experience, you dont attract women with this kind of body indépendantly of your face, that is what i suggested you seems to overfocus on this body proportion as a characteristic that can alone make you attractive to beautifull women, when in my experience it doesnt. If in your experience this characteristics is associated with other suboptimal. characteristics in term of looking, like suboptimal face, and health, you are right to want to change it.

In my experience, sunlight, eating blood, organs, and accessory meat,(from very healthy young animals between may and half september)

some good honey, and not eating most other foods that i felt pull out of an ideal masculine state, is what make the biggest difference in bone structure( face and body)

feeling that you have power in your environnement about what matter to you, also make a difference.

body building is not necessary at all

 

[BigShoes]

@BigShoes Hi, the second "attractive" man, we do not even see his face, in my experience, you dont attract women with this kind of body indépendantly of your face, that is what i suggested you seems to overfocus on this body proportion as a characteristic that can alone make you attractive to beautifull women, when in my experience it doesnt. If in your experience this characteristics is associated with other suboptimal. characteristics in term of looking, like suboptimal face, and health, you are right to want to change it.

In my experience, sunlight, eating blood, organs, and accessory meat,(from very healthy young animals between may and half september)

some good honey, and not eating most other foods that i felt pull out of an ideal masculine state, is what make the biggest difference

feeling that you have power in your environnement about what matter to you, also make a difference.

body building is not necessary at all

Hi Lasting Joy,

(1) no where, anywhere, did I say that bodybuilding was necessary. This is why I have specifically used the slim swimmer physique to illustrate the point. The thing is, you CANNOT demonstrate the phenomena of bone structure anomalies on bodies with higher body fat - the lines are blurred on a fatter torso. Note this does NOT mean the problem has gone away, just that you are unable to see it. Once again, this is not a muscle or a fat issue, it is a BONES issue driven by HORMONES. Like I said previously, estrogenic profiles make male hips wider - this is de facto an unattractive trait.

(2) By extension, wide hips in men, that I am associating with ESTROGEN DOMINANCE as the cause, are also highly linked to other features in the body being either feminized or at least less masculine. I agree with you that a face plays a much more important role in attractiveness than "muscles" or "bodybuilding".

However, men with estrogen dominance and the consequences of that e.g. wider hips, gynecomastia, slim wrists and bones, smaller penis etc.) are also going to have more feminine / less masculine / more androgynous faces by default - which again, are less attractive to women. For example:

Clearly, the face on the right is more androgynous, and feminized. And clearly, 95% plus women would choose one of the two faces on the left side. Look at the wikipedia man in my post above, with the wide hips and narrow waist. I would place his face on the right side of this slider in terms of androgenic / estrogenic -ness.

It is simply not possible to have a masculine, androgenized face, and a less androgenized body (e.g. wide hips). Once again, this has NOTHING to do with muscle mass, or body fat - it is about the skeleton, which is an expression of the hormones. I have not once stated that bodybuilding is necessary, or that you aren't attractive if you aren't super muscular. In fact, I literally stated the exact opposite in my opening paragraph of the OP.

Nevertheless, I like your approach below:

"In my experience, sunlight, eating blood, organs, and accessory meat,(from very healthy young animals between may and half september)
some good honey, and not eating most other foods that i felt pull out of an ideal masculine state, is what make the biggest difference"

Something we can definitely agree on.

Cheers

 

[Miggie]

When i'm looking at your pictures i dont think the problem are your hips. Your whole upper torso lacks mass. If you add more mass in the chest/back/delts it will flare out your torso more so they will be more in line with your hips. If you where to add 30 lbs of muscle everywhere your waist would also grow bigger to match your hips.

The blond guy you posted has a lot more mass in his upper body and also in his waist that's why they look more proportional.

 

[LastingJoy]

@BigShoes i did not imply that you said that about body building, i was sharing my experience. i did read the whole of your last comment

 

[BigShoes]

When i'm looking at your pictures i dont think the problem are your hips. Your whole upper torso lacks mass. If you add more mass in the chest/back/delts it will flare out your torso more so they will be more in line with your hips. If you where to add 30 lbs of muscle everywhere your waist would also grow bigger to match your hips.

The blond guy you posted has a lot more mass in his upper body and also in his waist that's why they look more proportional.

It is categorically NOT a muscle issue. It is a skeleton issue:

This above man is significantly more muscular than I am (at least, for his frame size). Yet still has the problem with wider hip pelvis bones, that are wider than his already wide waist. Under his obliques, is a wide pelvis. This man is unattractive to women.

Most likely, he got into bodybuilding because of his lack of success with women (I am not judging him here, I also started lifting weights to improve my chances with women, to little effect might I add, because BONES), and has most likely used steroids to get muscle shapes and sizes to that condition. Yet he still remains unattractive, because his skeleton has been shaped by estrogen in his upbringing.

I have a similar problem, though not as bad:

My body is less unattractive than his, but still unattractive overall. Once again, this because hormonal imprinting on my skeleton has already occurred - no amount of muscle addition will change that fact. Whilst I have added muscle and reduced fat mass to look as good as I can, there is no overcoming a skeleton with estrogenic proportions.

Whereas this slim man, with upper pelvis bones in-line with the most narrow part of the waist, and prominent oblique muscles sitting on top of the bones creating a strong V-line. This man is attractive to women for the most part (or, certainly not unattractive).

Once again, the wider hips comes from less androgenic, more estrogenic profile, and is becoming more and more common in the world. I see it in myself, and am disgusted by it - a slide towards androgyny.

I am still searching for clues around:
(1) meaningfully reducing estrogen and prolactin in vivo, and keeping it there - thyroid, carrot salad, avoiding PUFA, avoiding plastics, avoiding unnatural laundry detergents etc. etc. have not made a dent.
(2) Answers to whether or not a meaningful shift in hormones to the more androgenic and less estrogenic may in fact alter the human skeleton in adulthood for the better.

I have read anecdotally that MtF transgender people observe a widening of their hips when taking hormones. So perhaps this means that doing the opposite (i.e. tanking an already existing elevated estrogen and prolactin level) could influence things in the other direction.

If anyone has successfully reduced their estrogen in a healthy way (not, for example, through letrozole) and kept it down for the long term, I would love to know how. I have tried many things, and made a number of lifestyle changes, but still have estrogen at 123 pmol/L | 33.5 pg, and prolactin at 16ng/ml.

I think I derailed the thread hahaha. Part of the reason for starting the thread was to ask men here if they could truly, honestly look at themselves and see if they notice a similar phenomena - i.e. the hip bones underneath the obliques being wider than the narrowest part of the waist.

If other men identified the same thing in themselves, then this would be a surefire sign that the estrogenic symptom was more common, and not an anomaly.

 

[Miggie]

It is categorically NOT a muscle issue. It is a skeleton issue:

View attachment 51398

This above man is significantly more muscular than I am (at least, for his frame size). Yet still has the problem with wider hip pelvis bones, that are wider than his already wide waist. Under his obliques, is a wide pelvis. This man is unattractive to women.

Most likely, he got into bodybuilding because of his lack of success with women (I am not judging him here, I also started lifting weights to improve my chances with women, to little effect might I add, because BONES), and has most likely used steroids to get muscle shapes and sizes to that condition. Yet he still remains unattractive, because his skeleton has been shaped by estrogen in his upbringing.

I have a similar problem, though not as bad:

View attachment 51402

My body is less unattractive than his, but still unattractive overall. Once again, this because hormonal imprinting on my skeleton has already occurred - no amount of muscle addition will change that fact. Whilst I have added muscle and reduced fat mass to look as good as I can, there is no overcoming a skeleton with estrogenic proportions.

Whereas this slim man, with upper pelvis bones in-line with the most narrow part of the waist, and prominent oblique muscles sitting on top of the bones creating a strong V-line. This man is attractive to women for the most part (or, certainly not unattractive).

View attachment 51404

Once again, the wider hips comes from less androgenic, more estrogenic profile, and is becoming more and more common in the world. I see it in myself, and am disgusted by it - a slide towards androgyny.

I am still searching for clues around:
(1) meaningfully reducing estrogen and prolactin in vivo, and keeping it there - thyroid, carrot salad, avoiding PUFA, avoiding plastics, avoiding unnatural laundry detergents etc. etc. have not made a dent.
(2) Answers to whether or not a meaningful shift in hormones to the more androgenic and less estrogenic may in fact alter the human skeleton in adulthood for the better.

I have read anecdotally that MtF transgender people observe a widening of their hips when taking hormones. So perhaps this means that doing the opposite (i.e. tanking an already existing elevated estrogen and prolactin level) could influence things in the other direction.

If anyone has successfully reduced their estrogen in a healthy way (not, for example, through letrozole) and kept it down for the long term, I would love to know how. I have tried many things, and made a number of lifestyle changes, but still have estrogen at 123 pmol/L | 33.5 pg, and prolactin at 16ng/ml.

I think I derailed the thread hahaha. Part of the reason for starting the thread was to ask men here if they could truly, honestly look at themselves and see if they notice a similar phenomena - i.e. the hip bones underneath the obliques being wider than the narrowest part of the waist.

If other men identified the same thing in themselves, then this would be a surefire sign that the estrogenic symptom was more common, and not an anomaly.

I agree on the first guy, however keep in mind this guy has a short torso and is shrugging a barbell, which will make your physique look narrow especially the shoulders.

after more careful inspection it seems like your hips are pointing more forward. How is your occlusion, are you a mouthbreather?

However I think you are not going to be able to reverse your hips, your hope is widening the rib cage, because you do not have wide hips. Also would you happen to have more poses? like a front double bicep for example or a front "relaexed" pose and some side poses?

 

[jordybrunson89]

why are you ignoring the solution of putting on another 20 lbs of muscle on your upper body? thats actually achievable with 1-2 years of training & bulking, unlike remodeling your bones. the fixation on something you can't control when there's something you can obviously improve on is mental illness

 

[Jonk]

I am still searching for clues around:
(1) meaningfully reducing estrogen and prolactin in vivo, and keeping it there - thyroid, carrot salad, avoiding PUFA, avoiding plastics, avoiding unnatural laundry detergents etc. etc. have not made a dent.

Right now I'm reading up on b-vitamins, and it seems like specifically b1 and b2 are needed to inactivate estrogen by the liver. And one more point, you keep referencing the bones and it sounds like you mean the actual thickness of the bones. In my mind it could also be the connective tissue, e.g. compressing the ribcage. This might be one more reason to look into b2 as it's implicated in the quality and elasticity of connective tissue. Just one more avenue to explore.

 

[liam183]

why are you ignoring the solution of putting on another 20 lbs of muscle on your upper body? thats actually achievable with 1-2 years of training & bulking, unlike remodeling your bones. the fixation on something you can't control when there's something you can obviously improve on is mental illness

This.

 

[Overton]

There is also the avenue of trying to "expand" your ribcage/intracostal muscles through breathing and other exercises. Some of the Functional Patterns training works on this

 

[liam183]

F*ck this thread makes me realize I have body dysmorphia. Can't stop thinking about how I have feminine hips and slight gyno lol. Makes me think I look like a b*tch when I'm more muscular than most. Must be the high estrogen kicking in lol. Gonna look into this further cause now you've got me overthinking this too

 

[liam183]

After spending a slightly concerning amount of time researching this topic, I've determined that the issue isn't inherently bone structure. Rather, the best way to fix this is to focus on building your core. Time to get back to oblique training! I've seen examples of people fixing this by doing heavy squats and deadlifts (without a lifting belt) as well as targeted core exercises. Based on Steve Reeves' ideal proportion guide, I should have a 30.9" waist based on my hip size, but my waist is only 28" now. Interestingly, Reeves had less of an Adonis belt compared to many bodybuilders. Looking back at old silver and golden era photos, the ones with the most well-defined Adonis belts were the people training abs lots. George Eiferman, Frank Zane, etc. Great Adonis belts, lots of ab/core training.

 

[singuluscorpora]

Since the OP @BigShoes is all well and good, let’s resume the talk, more specifically how to lower estrogen and prolactin, up the testosterone, and benefit from that.

I have self-diagnosed bigger-than-ideal hips and small waist, quite similar to the OP, also I have still remaining stubborn body fat in the love handles area while having almost a six pack, striations on shoulders, etc.

What (radical if necessary) diet and supplements should you recommend to maximize low stress lifestyle and to get rid of the stubborn body fat?

I’m eating very very simple - 1-2 portions of the following:
* 500 gr Skyr, 500 gr / 1 pound of frozen fruits, 6 bananas -> this is roughly 1000 kcal
* also, since we’re already in fruit season, I’m eating fruits without restrictions - for example. 1-2-3 kg of cherries, 2-3 kg watermelon, stuff like that

1-2 times a week I’m eating 250-300 gr terrine/pate with 20-30% liver content (I’m eating a french made one saying no preservatives (not organic though), or a local organic from time to time)

Supplements:
* vitamin D (liquid, Now Foods) - 1000 IU per 10 kg of bodyweight = 8-9000 IU in the winter, half of that in the summer
* zinc picolinate (Now Foods) - ‘standard’ 15 mg
* magnesium malate (Now Foods) - 480 mg
* K-complex (Jarrow) - 1 pill a day
* TMG (Now Foods) - 6000 mg

I’m pretty tall (196 cm/ 6’5”), not that heavy (85 kg/ 190 lbs).

Thanks

 

[BigShoes]

Hey @singuluscorpora and others,

Thanks for all the support.

I have been thinking about this point further.

I firmly believe that wider hips AND / OR a slimmer lower rib cage on a man (in proportion to the rest of the structure) is a symptom of sub-optimal hormones and excess estrogen. I have had a look at all of my photos, and looked at myself in the mirror again, and am certain that: not only are my hips wider than they should be, but my rib cage is also relatively slim at the bottom portion - you will also see this in the tattooed man that I posted - very narrow rib cage below the lats.

As mentioned by some posters above, this *may* be masked somewhat through rib-cage expansion exercises - but I don't think that a hormonal issue can be so easily covered up. Whilst the intercostal muscles and core stabilizers can be trained, I personally don't believe that this can appreciably change the circumference of our rib cage by itself. I may be wrong though.

Whether the cause is High Estrogen? or Lower Testosterone? Hard to be sure. But I know that in my own hormonal profile:
(1) whilst doctors classify my estrogen levels (33pg/dl) as being "in the normal range", it is certainly not optimal, and probably AT LEAST 2x what it should be. Some would argue even 3x
(2) My testosterone levels are lower than ideal currently (666ng/dl), but were a bit higher when I was younger (700-800ng/dl) -> tbh I don't think this is too bad, but possibly Free Testosterone can still be lower despite a reasonably high total T
(3) Additionally, it is generally testosterone that creates the bigger muscles etc. but DHT is a very important hormone for things like penis size, beard growth, masculinization of the face. I have no idea what my DHT levels are.

Other estrogenic (or at least, not androgenic) symptoms I have noticed in myself (IN MY OUTER APPEARANCE ONLY):
- relatively baby-faced (although still ugly hahahaha)
- relatively poor ability to grow a beard - I have facial hair, but it's not nice and full, and never has been - whilst genetics *may* play a role in how the beard presents itself (shape, colour, texture of the hairs), I don't think any of us are genetically programmed to grow sparse beards.
- voice is not as deep as optimal. Certainly, it is low, but not booming low like some. (Not technically appearance, but an outward sign).
- mild gynecomastia, that I first noticed at age 23. It is definitely mild, and I have seen larger, but there is a glandular lump about the size of a large grape (or slightly larger than a grape) behind both nipples - worse on the right side.
- Here's another big one: VEIN issues... I have noticed that I have some spider veins on my ribs, thighs and ankles. Also, some the bigger veins in my lower body / legs (e.g. the backs of my knees) do not look very well........ They are not (yet) varicose veins, but they definitely look to be struggling. Varicose veins and valve troubles are suredly a sign of high serotonin and estrogen.

I truly believe it all correlates.

As some other posters have commented, it is not useful to hate ourselves and put ourselves down for not having the perfect this-or-that feature or ratio. But I do think it is important to recognize the phenomena, and pinpoint the reason for the trait. As I said previously: a problem ignored, is a problem unsolved. ... or maybe "a problem ignored is a problem forever." ... or maybe even "a problem ignored is another problem later." (trying to philosophize here!)

But ultimately, it goes back to first principles. How do we:
- improve metabolic function, limit stress hormones and adaptive hormones, and maximize protective hormones
- maximize our testosterone levels through natural living and natural means
- reduce feminizing / androgyn-izing hormones (estrogen and prolactin) and exposures to toxic estrogenic chemicals

I have been reading a lot abut the above three bullets, and tbh those questions are basically the foundation of this forum (at least, for the men). But haven't seemed to have solved anything yet. Still have slightly lower temps despite thyroid use, still have same estrogenic symptoms (despite a MYRIAD of interventions), still running on a "stressed metabolism" despite doing my bst to eat unrestricted, non-inflammatory, low PUFA foods.

CAN BONE STRUCTURE BE INFLUENCED TOWARDS THE MASCULINE FROM THE FEMININE / ANDROGYN:

I suppose my main question was always: can our bone structure be positively influenced to the more masculine / less estrogenized shape, if we were theoretically able to significantly, safely and naturally suppress our estrogen and prolactin levels? (e.g. lowering my 33pg estrogen and 16ng prolactin to 10pg and 6pg respectively)

Whether the bone structure can actually adjust for the better, I am uncertain. Once the damage is done, it is often hard to reverse... However, I have heard tales of:
(1) pubertal gynecomastia RESOLVING in males - although I have not experienced this myself, despite trying many treatments. I also don't think this is the norm...
(2) some MtF transgender people who have used exogenous estrogen (and other hormones) apparently have reported observing a *widening* of the hips. Whether this is from fat distribution changes, or from the hip bones themselves widening, I cannot say. But perhaps a suppression of estrogen *could* influence things in the other direction...

At this point, I suppose this is all an academic discussion. I would be highly interested to learn about the blood prolactin and estrogen levels of anyone else who had observed this phenomena in themselves. Or even, for men who believe they have the rib cage and pelvis proportions of those awesome statues linked by @WombOfFuturity , it would also help to add evidence to the theory if you knew that your estrogen and prolactin levels were consistently low in your blood tests.

In conclusion:

- I'm going to read further into Ray's writings on estrogen. And read further into environmental estrogens and toxins. Hopefully with the aim of reducing it significantly (and safely) for the long term. This will likely have very beneficial effects in itself... If I am successful in doing so, I could also use my own skeletal changes (or lack thereof) over the next 5-10 years(?) as an n=1 test to the hypothesis. Although, if I am successful, perhaps I will notice far more immediate changes to my mood, energy levels, libido, hair and skin quality etc. etc. that will make me forget about this observation (although, I am unlikely to forget - I can't unlearn the finding).

P.S. the comment made earlier in the thread about how "if it was possible to actually change skeleton proportions, bodybuilders would have found this out already" was initially extremely damning for me. It made so much sense :- guys using high amounts of testosterone and artificially inhibiting aromatase should have noticed these positive changes in skeletal proportions if it was actually possible to do. However:

(1) it is a very subtle thing to notice - it took me literally 13-14 years of being involved in weightlifting and being physique-conscious (sometimes more dedicated, sometimes less dedicated) to even notice the issue in myself. I have always thought my body looked weird from straight on (as I say, almost all of my poses are taken at an angle), but I could never put my finger on why... it wouldn't be unreasonable to think that most people didn't really notice the slow gradual skeletal changes in themselves even if they DID successfully take place in long term steroid users.

(2) I know that even bodybuilders using PCT aromatase inhibitors still have lots of trouble with estrogen rebound. It is talked about on the steroid forums all the time. I don't think it's a given that bodybuilding circles are able to successfully and healthily reduce estrogen for the long term.

(3) It's not something I've ever seen bodybuilders focus on. I used to lurk on bodybuilding . com forums well over a decade ago when I was in university (c. 18-21) and almost all of the posts were about "how do I make 'x' muscle larger?" / "how many sets and reps?" / "which exercise is king for 'y'?" / "what should my macros be?" / "bro split vs full body?" - mostly very surface level. Whilst there are clearly some very intelligent steroid-using bodybuilders (most of them could pass a chemistry degree from scratch), their primary focus is always (1) maximize muscle, (2) minimize fat, (3) don't die. The intricacies on the skeleton are not discussed as much (from what I remember)

Sorry, long post again. Definitely need to work on brevity (incidentally, using more words than necessary is also associated with higher estrogen - something I notice in myself.).

 

[BigShoes]

Oh, and one final thing I wanted to mention that corroborates with the theory, but could just be lunacy:

Has anyone noticed that older men sometimes have this waddle from side-to-side as they walk?? This may just be from old age and joint pain, but I had a theory that: as men age, our hips also tend to widen compared to our youth, due to increases in estrogen as we age.

This makes sense, because as we know: estrogen levels tend to slowly rise in men as they age, and as their health declines (or possibly, their health declines as their estrogen rises).

As hips widen, the femur bones / femur sockets also move further and further away from the centre of mass (incidentally, this is one of the reasons why men are faster runners than women - women's femurs are further away from their centre of mass due to the wider hips, therefore it is comparatively more difficult for a woman to stabilize herself when running compared to a man).

As shown above, women's Q angle (the angle of the femur) is larger than males. The woman's pelvis is wider, but her femur bone angle is also larger, to ensure that she can still keep her feet relatively well under her centre of mass as she moves.

I think the reason for older men's waddle is because:
(1) Men's pelvises often widen as they age (Which I am hypothesizing is due to lower androgens and rising estrogen levels over the years). HOWEVER,
(2) Men tend to maintain the same Q angle of the femur (the blue angle) and do not adopt a wider Q angle like the women do (the pink angle).

What then results is a man who has wider hips, closer to the woman's, but still the same "straightness" of the leg that he had when he was a young man.

This then results in the feet being much further away from the man's centre of mass as he walks:

causing a waddle.

Also, if the above picture is accurate about the shape of female vs male pelvises, that is very interesting... it looks to me as though the woman's pelvis just angles itself further out than a man's, rather than necessarily being a wider bone ... although this picture is just a graphic, I'm not actually sure.

We know that osteoblast and osteoclast activity is constantly occurring forever (This Is How Long Your Skeleton Takes to Regenerate Itself) - bones are constantly (but slowly) renewing themselves). Yes, our bones are hard solid bone, but they also can be shaped by the forces imposed onto them (wolff's law), and can OBVIOUSLY be influenced by hormones, after all - hormones are the reason why women have lovely wide hips, and men have masculine slim hips (ideally).

THEORETICALLY, I see absolutely no reason why a man should not be able to narrow his hips over time **IF** he can meaningfully, consistently and above all healthily reduce his estrogenic hormone levels. (emphasis on "healthily" - I wouldn't personally recommend potent AIs - they are not a long term route to health at all...)

After all that jibber jabber and pontificating, it still comes back to the same objective - finding a strategy to decrease estrogen and prolactin.

 

[liam183]

@BigShoes how about this, you try narrowing your hips, I'll try building my core. Let's check back in a year or so and see whose progress is more impactful. Science at its best :)

 

[BigShoes]

Hi @liam183

I highly doubt either of us will have much success with either endeavour.

I'm not hopeful that I will actually be able to optimize my hormones. I've been trying to get healthy through a Peat lens for a very long time (c. 2 years) and trying improve my health for a long time before that (haven't been on the standard western diet for over a decade, and have been trying my best to avoid environmental xeno-estrogens for just as long. I don't know if I'll ever optimize myself to feel good.

Whereas, the method you describe will fail for me because muscles attach to insertion points (the bones) - muscles cannot grow to a shape that is independent of the bones they are attached to.

I found some more evidence in myself, that I'd like to further provide. This picture comparison confirms to me that it is BOTH the rib cage AND the pelvis:

I took this "selfie" when I was 26 (6 years ago) - probably at the peak of my starvation diet (or "intermittent fasting" / "six pack diet" as I called it...). That is the first and last time I ever took a selfie in the mirror because I realized how terrible I looked (but didn't know why). But those lines tell all:
- the blue line - look how much space there is between the lower portion of my lat and the outer part of the oblique muscle. You could drive a Humvee (Canyonero?) through that gap. This is conclusive proof that my rib cage (at least, my lower rib cage) is very narrow and low in circumference. This is an estrogenic trait. (side note: anyone measured their infrasternal angle?? Mine is very small)
- red line - drawing a red line straight down from the outer most portion of the oblique muscle, look how much hip bone / glute medius there is hanging outside it. This is confirmation of a wide (or outwardly tilted) pelvis
- yellow line - drawing a straight vertical line down from the narrowest point of the waist to the floor - notice how much oblique, hip bone and glute medius muscle there is outside of that line - not a good look. Many will say "your waist is too narrow!" and they would be correct. But my point to you is that there truly is not an appreciable amount of muscle to even be made in that location. I already have pretty defined external oblique muscles, and if you remember from the muscle diagram above, those muscles travel all the way up the side of the rib cage. That space needs to be filled with a larger rib cage (which I do not believe can be changed without a hormonal shift - I do not think any amount of muscle training will bridge that gap. My body even looks like an hourglass here - very estrogenic.

This girl will NEVER get rid of her hour glass figure (not that she would want to) by doing oblique crunches:

That is an extreme example of why I am 99% certain that the "core training" method will have no appreciable impact.

Contrast with the man from the OP (sorry to post this again, but I'm really not up for looking through a whole bunch of mens torsos on google images (despite what it may seem, I am using these to make a point about estrogen and my own problems, not because I like them myself hahaha):

- the blue line - look how little space there is between his lower lat point and his oblique (despite the man having comparatively very large lats to the average man). This occurs because his (lower) rib cage is wide - unlike mine, and unlike the gym girl above, and unlike the tattooed man previously)
- red line - drawing a red line straight down from the outer most portion of the oblique muscle, look how there is literally AIR in between on both the left and the right sides. This is because his pelvis bone is narrow - it is NOT because I have developed glute medius and he doesn't - whilst I don't have a picture, I'm sure he trains legs too).
- yellow line - drawing a straight vertical line down from the narrowest point of the waist to the floor - his hip bones are literally perfectly in line with this line - possibly a centimeter wider on each side.

The differences are undeniable.

I truly believe that core training and side crunches will do next to nothing to change it, because the difference is due to the bone structure.

And I believe that this difference in bone structure is NOT genetic or just a random coincidence - it is hormonal (possibly epigenetic inheritance - e.g. my mother is hypothyroid, I have inherited that tendency. But more likely, it is environmental).

What a week ...
(1) general anaesthetic exploratory surgery
(2) cancer scare
(3) realizing why I'm so unattractive

... all in one week hahaha!

All I can do is be aware of it, be thankful to be alive, and work to bring my estrogen and prolactin down. I wouldn't suggest that any time is spent on "core training" in terms of fixing the above issue ..... if you want a strong core, that's great! Go get 'em tiger! But I do not believe it would resolve this issue. Still, maybe mine is extremely bad compared to yours / others' so maybe you could have results.

Cheers